Monday, May 14, 2018

Deal or no deal?

 OK here's a deal for pro-lifers. Or pro-choicers for that matter. You can defund Planned Parenthood. All you have to do is agree that the federal government will provide all the reproductive health services that PP provided absolutely free of charge to all women with the exception of abortion. Deal or no deal?

25 comments:

Legion of Logic said...

Do men also get free reproductive health services under this deal, or do we discriminate and make them pay for their own?

Victor Reppert said...

No, they get it too.

bmiller said...

Isn't Mephistopheles the one that is always offering deals? Just saying :-)

Legion of Logic said...

If it applied equally, then it would certainly be worth investigating. I'm not knowledgeable enough to speak of the costs of reproductive health or any other health costs. However, to the extent possible, I think society would have a vested interest in preventing as many abortions as possible. And since society now thinks casual frequent sex is a virtue, about all we can realistically achieve is extremely easy access to birth control.

W.LindsayWheeler said...

NO. The Federal Government has no business in health care, nor in education. It is NOT part of the duties laid out in the Constitution. All that stuff is reserved to the States.

bmiller said...

I was right.

Miguel Angel Cedeño Llauger said...

I do not do those things with things that do not belong to me. You know, like the life of others.

Hugo Pelland said...

"And since society now thinks casual frequent sex is a virtue, about all we can realistically achieve is extremely easy access to birth control."

No, casual sex is a not a 'virtue' at all.

In reality, it's about FREEDOM, something the more extreme individuals on the Left and the Right seem to forget. Have sex with whoever the heck you want, and let others have sex with whoever the heck they want. It's none of your business, nor anyone else's. It's between consulting adults and we should make sure that they received education on what safe sex is, how to prevent undesired pregnancy, and how consent is essential.

Miguel Angel Cedeño Llauger said...

This matter is not about laws.

Hugo Pelland said...

Regarding the original post, I personally don't understand what that means... what would become free exactly? It seems to be a much broader question than abortions specifically. And it doesn't address the main question of whether abortions would be affordable/accessible.

Legion of Logic said...

No, casual sex is a not a 'virtue' at all.

It is highly glorified at any rate.


It's between consulting adults and we should make sure that they received education on what safe sex is, how to prevent undesired pregnancy, and how consent is essential.

That's great, except the vast majority of abortions are done (for non-health reasons) by unmarried women. So there is a behavior that is directly leading to abortion that perhaps society could have a vested interest in curtailing, beyond simply offering birth control and hoping it is used correctly. Not curtailing through punishment, but by encouraging better behavior and perhaps granting additional incentives to married couples that make marriage more attractive.

One Brow said...

I have no objection to that proposal, at all. It would reduce the number of abortions drastically.

Hugo Pelland said...

Legion,

No, casual sex is neither glorified nor shamed; it's just an option people have.

Why do you think merely giving people that choice is seen as glorified or a virtue?

And just like One Brow, for many reasons, I also think we should encourage marriages/relationships but it has nothing to do with the emotional attachment pro-life folks have with meaningless cells nor is it a critique of those who prefer casual sex over sex within committed relationships.

The analogy if the bike is great again actually. Let's say we agree we should not encourage motorbikes on highways. Mostly for the own safety of the biker. But if they want to, go for it, with the knowledge of the consequences. But these consequences should be based in facts, and the fact is that gravel stuck to one's leg is something that should be minimized as much as possible, but it's still just gravel. Get rid of it and move on. But you want everyone to drive cars because you care about that gravel for some unscientific and emotional reason. But now that's another point, seen the other thread, so I won't copy/paste here.

Finally, yes, it is about the law so I don't know what Miguel is talking about nor whether Legion agrees. Because if you think it's fine to have legal abortions for any reason at any point in the pregnancy and let the woman and her doctor decide, but you would never do it yourself for whatever reason, then that's the pro-choice position.

bmiller said...

I'm interested in how birth control and abortion went from being universally condemned by all mainline protestant churches in 1960 (indeed, all of Christianity till then) to being universally supported by those churches.

I've done my own reading, but I'd like to hear the explanation from those followers.

Starhopper said...

bmiller,

It's not just birth control and abortion. Something shifted radically in "mainline" Protestantism in the 1960s and afterwards. We see pastors openly skeptical of miracles (to include the Resurrection!). We see Biblical "scholars" reject the divine inspiration of Scripture. We see the Anglican church drift into full blown apostasy. We see an embrace of homosexuality unheard of in previous centuries. We see a wholesale abandonment of tradition (for example, women priests and even bishops), to be replaced by historical amnesia.

The problem in contemporary Catholicism is in some ways the exact reverse. Here we see a disturbing rise in the number of "rad-trads" (radical traditionalists), who reject anything post Vatican II as heresy, and insist on putting form over substance (as in their clamoring for a return to the Latin Mass, etc.).

bmiller said...

@Starhopper,

I mentioned that I have read some articles as to the origin of this, but I'm curious to find out if the rank and file of the mainline churches know the history. And if so, what is their particular take on it.

The "rad-trads" have left the Church and started their own. Seems they were unable to distinguish doctrine from practice as you say. That's similar to a lot of the complaints Fundamentalist Christians have about Catholicism.

Regarding the Latin Mass. There's been no ban on it since 1984 so no one should have a problem with it now. The Orthodox people I've met are very proud of the beauty and spiritually uplifting nature of their Divine Liturgy. I understand why Catholics would want that and attend a Latin Mass. You probably speak Latin....verum?

bmiller said...

And it just occurred to me that the Eastern Rite Catholic Churches have their version of the Divine Liturgy like the Orthodox. We had some refugees visiting at our parish until they could get a space of their own.

Starhopper said...

"Regarding the Latin Mass."

I have nothing against the Latin Mass. What I do oppose is the idea that Mass in the vernacular is somehow "inferior" to it. Until I moved last November to Catonsville, I attended a church in Baltimore where the Mass was celebrated in Polish! Over the course of time I managed to pick up enough of the language to participate in the prayers (though I never did get fluent enough to understand the sermons), and I actually miss that experience now that I'm out here in the white bread, English only suburbs.

But as for Latin, I do pray privately in that language (except for the Divine Mercy chaplet, where considering its origin, Polish does seem most appropriate). The Bible I normally read is bilingual English/Latin, and when I am curious about the meaning of a certain passage, I routinely cross check it against the Vulgate.

Dave Duffy said...

Google a PP location. Then Google all the free (or subsidized) clinics within public transportation in the area. If the clinic is not subsidized, look into the free medical benefits available at the federal, state, and local level. It's already a deal.

PP is needed for abortions. Anyone honest about it acknowledges this.

Dave Duffy said...

Just to make sure, I randomly searched for PP in Houston TX. I then copied the address and put in "free medical clinics..." and then pasted the PP address. Twelve locations popped up within a few miles of the address.

bmiller said...

What I do oppose is the idea that Mass in the vernacular is somehow "inferior" to it.

People forget that Latin was the vernacular at one time. But the vernacular in the Eastern Rite was not Latin.

But see, you missed the familiar Polish Mass you got used to. People grow attachments to the familiar and that's not necessarily a bad thing.

bmiller said...

@Dave Duffy,

So, do you think PP would go out of business if not for abortions?

Dave Duffy said...

miller,

Can you tell me a service other than abortions that PP provides not provided better by the standard health clinics?

bmiller said...

No

Joe Hinman said...

Can you tell me a service other than abortions that PP provides not provided better by the standard health clinics?

May 15, 2018 8:09 PM

not specifically but i know they do a lot