dangerous idea

This is a blog to discuss philosophy, chess, politics, C. S. Lewis, or whatever it is that I'm in the mood to discuss.

Saturday, July 29, 2006

Evil and the Atheism of the Gaps

Anonymous wrote:
First off, I think you're right when you say that you're at a disadvantage when you, as a theist, must first set out your proofs for god and how they square everyone's observations of the natural world. It's not an unfair disadvantage, though; it's perfectly fair and right that things are tougher for you than for the atheist, because you're making the positive claim ("God Exists"). If you want that claim to have any weight, you must present the positive arguement and then let others attack the logical edifice to see if it holds together. What you're doing right now is just avoiding your responsibility at a theistic philosopher, trying to get the athiests to do your work for you. I can understand why you want your opponents to play the besieged party (it's easier to be on the attack, sure), but just because you don't want to do the work of establishing your premise doesn't mean you can assume it's true and rest on your laurels.

There are some mistakes in this discussion that need to be addressed. First of all, I am not at all sure that "making the positive claim" places a burden of proof on the theist. Until somebody converts me to classical foundationalism my view of burdens of proof is that the burden of proof falls on someone trying to get someone else to change his or her mind. We have the right, as rational persons, to believe what we already do believe, unless we receive evidence against what we believe. Someone claiming that the external world exists is making a positive claim, so by the above logic he or she should have to prove to a skeptic that the external world exists in order to be rational in believing it.

Second, I have myself defended theism with arguments. So that isn't my problem.

My problem is this. The argument from evil is the attempt to shoulder a burden of proof on behalf of atheism. It is, after all an argument for atheism. It as attempt to argue that God does not exist. It is an argument against theism. For it to be successful, we need to see how it works, what moral principles are invoked, and what factual claims are being made, to see if the argument is a good one.

What I am objecting to is what I will call atheism-of-the-gaps. Theists are rightly criticized when they take a gap in the naturalistic understanding of the world as automatically proving that God must exist, so that the gap can be filled. A gap in our scientific understanding of the world might be as a result of the limitations of our present understanding rather than providing a foundation for world-view change. But when they come to the evil in the world, they point to some evil and say "Explain this, otherwise, you're being irrataional." This in spite of the fact that the omnipotence of God and the teaching of Scripture strongly predict that there will be gaps in our understanding of evil.

Now we need something more than the contention that we have a gap here.

7 Comments:

  • At July 29, 2006 7:40 PM , Blogger The Discomfiter said...

    http://notmanywise.blogspot.com/2006/07/argument-from-reason.html

    a critique of reppert's argument from reason

     
  • At July 30, 2006 7:32 AM , Anonymous Duke York said...

    I hope I don't register as anonymous anymore ^_^. I was on my way to work when I did the post, and I didn't realize I was still under that when I posted.

    the burden of proof falls on someone trying to get someone else to change his or her mind

    Well, I guess I agree with the basic statement here, but I'm not trying to "convert" you to atheism. Believe in the Christian god, if you want; sure. Believe in Shiva. Believe in the Tooth Fairy. All I'm doing is pointing out that those three beliefs are equally irrational.

    Now, it may seem to you that my saying you're irrational is an attack, but it's not, really. Believe in craziness. Go ahead. Until it breaks my leg or picks my pocket, you can be as nutball as you want.

    And of course, this is an un-level playing field. As the particular kind of atheist I am, I don't have to make converts, but (if you're a Christian or a Muslim) you do, and the only means you have left at your disposal (now that we've outlawed the sword and the auto de fe) is "reason", which doesn't support your side that well.

    Second, I have myself defended theism with arguments. So that isn't my problem.

    Props to the discomfiter for posting a link explaining the arguements.

    Well, there are two sorts of theistic arguments, and you've managed to re-discover the first. It goes like this:

    1) The world can't have this particular property (movement, reason, morals) on its own.

    2) God can have this property.

    3) The world does have this property.

    4) Therefore, God exists.

    Do you see how everything gets tripped up on number 2 there? Why can god have the property you're trying to use to prove its existence?

    Because he's defined that way.

    Why can't the universe as a whole be defined that way?

    Because that would undercut the argument.

    Now, like I said, if you want to believe that's a good argument, go ahead. I won't try to stop you. It's just not convincing to anyone who doesn't already agree with you.

    (And what's the second type of argument for the existence of god? The Argument for Design. That's why presuppositionalism and the TAG and everything else comes and goes, and why the evolution debate remains; the hard-core theists know that if they surrender the lifeboat of Design, they're lost.)

    The argument from evil is the attempt to shoulder a burden of proof on behalf of atheism.

    You need to clear up your terms here. The argument from evil only runs counter to some limited forms of Abrahamic monotheisms. If you confront a Wiccan or a Pagan (both, you must admit, are theists) with a tsunami, the correct response is "Well, I guess Neptune was more powerful than Gaia that day: we must have been lax in our appeasement". If you confront a Calvinist or other predeterminist, the correct response is "Well, that's just what was supposed to happen, and there's nothing anyone -- not even God -- could do to change it." If you were to confront one of the more vicisous adherents (Phelps, for example, although they were much more common in the past) they would say "Well, god had to kill a heretic, and that was they way he choose; the collateral damage proves we have to root out the evil among us".

    The Problem of Evil is only a problem for the rational converter, the Abrahamic monotheist who can no longer skin people alive until the whole village converts to Christianity/Islam/Judaism. The rational converters have made a huge, infinitely powerful god who is all loving and wants to have a personal relationship with you (While you give ten percent of your to converter. Go figure.)

    Against the rosy-cheeked Santa Claus of a god that the rational converter needs, then the argument for evil becomes a potent force. No longer can the converter claim that there is a god who is temporarly more powerful. No longer can the converter claim that god was punishing sin and some people got in the way. Both of those would keep people from coming to the rational converter's god (and keep them from kicking in their ten percent).

    So what does the rational converter do? First off, split evil into two parts, Human and natural. Human evil is fine -- the free will defense to covers why god doesn't stop pedophiles and the like.

    Natural evil is the problem, the things that supposedly come from god when they're good (rain, fecundity, and so on). Why can't god give us rains and not floods? Why can't it let our crops grow, but not the plague?

    Regardless of the exact technique, the rational converter uses the same theme to plug this hole in is ten percent coffer; there is no natural evil.

    First, they may claim that all "natural" evil is, in fact, human evil because of "original sin" or "The Fall". I'm sure we all know the holes in that argument, and it is too specific to one particular religion to be interesting.

    The more interesting way to prove there is no natural evil is to say that we just don't have the right perspective to see why that "evil" is actually "good".

    The way I framed the Argument from Evil all hinges around the "perspective" in that above sentence. Since (from the rational converter's point of view) there is no evil, why did god make us with brains capable of misperceiving "good" as "evil"?

    The Santa Clause god of the rational converter (if it actually existed) could have handled this problem in any one of a dozen ways. The most obvious is just to stop the physical events we call "natural evil". This wouldn't even require miracles; no one expected the Boxing Day tsunami, so no one would have called its absence a miracle.

    The more potent argument against the Santa-god is that it made our perceptions. It could have expanded our awareness, giving us the bigger picture so we could see why 19 million dead from the flu is a good thing, or it could have reduced our perspective so we weren't aware of the large scale evils. Or, and this is the kicker, it could have made us so we could successfully distinguish between human evil (which we can fight against) and natural evil (Close your eyes and think of England.)

    I realize I've used a whole pile of words to address a fairly minor problem, but that's because the problem of evil is really straining at gnats. It's not generally applicable to the vast majority of gods people have (and still do) believe in. It's not even applicable to the god of the bible (Jericho and Sodom, anyone?)

    And I don't expect this to convince you or convert you. I'm just saying what I think is rational. If you choose to agree with me, go ahead. If not, more power too you.

    Duke York

     
  • At July 30, 2006 8:57 AM , Blogger exbeliever said...

    I am not at all sure that "making the positive claim" places a burden of proof on the theist. Until somebody converts me to classical foundationalism my view of burdens of proof is that the burden of proof falls on someone trying to get someone else to change his or her mind.

    I do not hold to the proposition, "A god or gods exist," nor do I hold to the proposition, "No god or gods exist." I do not hold to the first proposition because I see no reason to believe in such an entity. I do not hold the second proposition because it seems to me that it would be impossible to support. The universe is a rather large place, and I don't think I know enough of it to make some kind of sweeping claim that there is nothing in this universe (or beyond) that cannot be called a "god." I suspect that there is no god anywhere, but I feel it is too big of a statement to say that it is impossible that something that could be called a "god" does not exist.

    If I wanted to "change your mind" about belief in god, what burden could I bear? I simply said that I disbelieve because I have no reason to believe. My claim is personal. I guess I could review all of the arguments that I've seen for the Christian God and point out their inadequacies (which is the point of my blog, but you may have actually seen god or heard him speak. All of my demonstrations of the inadequacy of arguments for the Christian God would be wasted on you because you have a piece of evidence that I don't have (a sight or sound from God). Of course, that evidence wouldn't be convincing to me (I would probably assume you were dreaming or hallucinating), but that evidence would, obviously, be convincing to you because you experienced it.

    Because of the nature of my position, in order to "change your mind" about your theism, I would need your cooperation. I would start by asking if we could agree that it is a generally sound position to take, that when someone claims that a being outside of our experience exists, we should take a skeptical stance towards that claim (e.g. if someone were to walk up to you and say, "Leprechauns exist on one of the moons around Uranus," the default position would be skepticism because Leprechauns are outside of our common experience). If we both agreed that this is a reasonable position to take towards existence claims that are outside of our common experience, then we could proceed in the argument. If, on the other hand, you stated, "No, I believe that we should accept every existence claim of beings outside of our experience uncritically and then only stop holding them after we have proved them false," I don't think I would pursue the conversation.

    If we agreed that this is a generally sound position and we could establish that a "god" is, in fact, outside of our experience (e.g. he thinks without a brain, is omnipresent, etc.), then we would have somewhere to start, skepticism.

    Still needing your cooperation, I would ask, "What reasons do you have for believing a god or gods exist?" We could, then, analyze those reasons together and decide if those reasons warrant the conclusion that a god or gods exist. If those reasons do, in fact, warrant belief, you will have (1) justified your belief, and (2) probably one a convert to your belief that a god or gods exist (though I probably would not become a worshipper of your god(s) (unless she was cool), I would, at least, admit that your god(s) existed).

    The claim I am making is that I have seen no convincing reason to believe a god or gods exist. I can accept my burden to justify that claim. I can list the arguments I've seen and point out their inadequacies. I can't, however, convince someone else that they should follow me in my skepticism without their cooperation in explaining the reasons they believe.

    We have the right, as rational persons, to believe what we already do believe, unless we receive evidence against what we believe.

    This is a page about Plantinga's book. You have these "properly basic beliefs" (e.g. the existence of a god, heaven, etc.) that you are as justified in holding as anyone else is in holding beliefs like "other minds exist" and "the external world exists" without evidence. [Interestingly enough, this idea of "properly basic beliefs" relies on the classical foundationalism that you distanced yourself from above.]

    Even given your idea that "We have the right, as rational persons, to believe what we already do believe, unless we receive evidence against what we believe," the conclusion would only be that you are not "irrational" for holding a certain belief, not that that belief is "true." But, so what? Whether or not you are rational for believing a god or gods exist is not the question. The question is whether or not there is any reason to believe a god or gods exist.

    Second, I have myself defended theism with arguments. So that isn't my problem.

    I skimmed Carrier's response to your arguments from reason after I wrote my own. The way he presented your arguments, they are only negative arguments against materialism. Your article that I responded to, attempted to derive the conclusion from your arguments against materialism that theism is preferable to atheism. That is the portion of your argument that I am interested in.

    I know that I would like to see your arguments from reason laid out with numbered premises and clear conclusions. Any chance of seeing those without buying your book (I'm a starving philosophy grad student)?

    You asked for constructions of the argument from evil, and I obliged in the best way I could. I would appreciate it if you could point me to some clear statements of your pro-theism arguments in return.

     
  • At July 30, 2006 12:06 PM , Blogger JD Walters said...

    This is all really sophomoric. I keep looking for intelligent atheistic defenses which at least give me food for thought or challenge my (presumed) complacency. So far on these posts I have found nothing of the sort, only the same old rehashed grade-school levels complaints against God, or absurd comparisons of belief in God with the Tooth Fairy.

    I used to think that the problem of evil was a major stumbling block to theism. Now I see that that perception is due mostly to atheists shouting loudly that yes, it is actually a problem. They haven't convinced me that it even challenges the concept of God in any meaningful way.

    I just want to make a brief comment on the distinction between God having a particular characteristic and the Universe having a particular characteristic. A typical critique of something like the "first cause" argument goes like this: even if we do admit that the Universe had a first cause, appealing to God as a first cause only pushes the problem back a step, because then we would have to explain what caused God. And if the theist replies that God can exist uncaused or self-caused, then why shouldn't the universe simply be taken as uncaused or self-caused? But this is really a category mistake: who on Earth thinks that a being like God and a being like the Universe are in the same metaphysical categories? By any standard definition of classical theism, God is the sort of being we would expect to have such properties as being self-caused(or non-contingent), everlasting, omnipotent, etc. But by what we know of the Universe, who would attribute these qualities to it? You cannot just get off the hook by claiming that the Universe can be self-caused if God can be, any more than a two-year old can complain that if his dad can drive a car, then so can he. God and the universe are NOT equivalent. That is the whole point of theism. It is legitimate to attribute non-contingency to God because, by definition, that is the sort of being God is. But it is not legitimate to attribute these qualities to the universe, which does not have a will of its own, or omnipotence, or any personal qualities for that matter.

     
  • At July 31, 2006 3:17 AM , Blogger Blue Devil Knight said...

    I agree that the argument from evil isn't knock-down, on it's own, but it is also a very good argument.

    It isn't knock-down, though, as theists are in the enviable position of having the ultimate free parameter in their theory, where logical possibility is the only constraint. However, when these mere logical possibilities ultimately undermine the unequivocal judgments of our moral faculties, you are on treachorously thin ice. Logically safe, but in practice very weakened, especially to those who aren't already invested in the conclusions you argue for.

    As for the argument from ignorance analogy, I think it is weak: Science has independent explanatory successes it can point to that aren't available to the theist: without this, nobody would listen to the pretensions of science. In science there are tons of uncontested examples of things we were ignorant of giving way to understanding. Also, I don't claim ignorance, but to know that it is immoral (or amoral) to have the power to stop X, but not stop it. You would need to show, in a non question-begging way, that this apparent knowledge is illusory.

     
  • At July 31, 2006 6:15 AM , Blogger Adam Omelianchuk said...

    I am glad to see you brought up the foundationalism issue. Those who do the whole "the burden of proof is on you for positive claim" thing seem to forget that their skepticism is as radical as those skeptics of Descartes time. Of course it is wonderfully selective.

     
  • At August 03, 2006 4:57 PM , Blogger JD Walters said...

    BDK,

    What is this 'free parameter' you keep referring to? I've certainly never heard of it. What makes you think God is a free parameter, as if whatever is logically possible is supposed to be in fact real? The Christian God is certainly NOT a free parameter. He is who he is, has a certain nature which, although we as limited mortals can only discern it faintly, through a glass darkly, nevertheless is well-defined. If you want to know what the Christian God is supposed to be like, look to the Bible, the Church Fathers, theologians, etc.

    I don't know where you got this silly idea that theists make God into anything they want Him to be. The whole idea of theism is that God reveals Himself to us, on His own terms. If He did not do so we would be incapable of experiencing Him, either directly or indirectly through the various proofs. God may be a free parameter in the sense that He is not, in C.S. Lewis' words, "a tame lion", not at our beck and call, but He is not arbitrary and it is certainly not up to us to determine God's nature.

     

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