This is a blog to discuss philosophy, chess, politics, C. S. Lewis, or whatever it is that I'm in the mood to discuss.
Monday, January 16, 2012
Tim McGrew's reply to Drange's Argument from Confusion
Tim McGrew put a couple of responses up to Drange's two arguments against Christian theism, the argument from confusion and the argument from biblical defects. Since they seem to be buried in the previous post, I thought I would put them front and center here. This is the first one
212 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 212 of 212- Son of Ya'Kov said...
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@Paps
>Ben, you have been caught out lying, misconstruing and egregiously reinterpreting Dennett's position,
Says the guy who equivocates between "unnatural" vs "supernatural".
I only do this in your fevered fundamentalist imagination Paps.
Dennett is a materialist reductionist. That is the lens threw which he interprets his science.
Live with it.
Feser is a Traditionalist Thomist & that is the lens threw which he looks at science.
Learn philosophy & stop dicking around. Because your version of Atheism is still low brow.
>Once again your arguments are manacled to thought patterns posited 1,000 years ago
So was Materialism & Atheism as it was put forth by the greek philosopher Democretus.
The "This is old therefore it is wrong" meme doesn't really apply to philosophy.
Your Atheism is still low brow. I could never believe it even if I stopped believing in God. - January 22, 2012 5:14 PM
- Crude said...
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I only do this in your fevered fundamentalist imagination Paps.
That's all Paps has, Ben. It's particularly funny because quite a lot of the criticisms Feser has of Dennett are criticisms given by other non-theistic philosophers - Fodor, Searle, etc.
Meanwhile, Paps doesn't even seem to understand what Dennett himself even advocates. He gets as far as "Well, Dawkins said something nice about him so I better be a good little monkey and defend him".
So was Materialism & Atheism as it was put forth by the greek philosopher Democretus.
I'm glad you brought that up - people usually miss that point. They get the idea that naturalism or materialism is some brand new idea that came around in the past 50 years.
Paps, don't you have a Boggle tournament to attend? ;) - January 22, 2012 6:54 PM
- Papalinton said...
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"So was Materialism & Atheism as it was put forth by the greek philosopher Democretus.
I'm glad you brought that up - people usually miss that point. They get the idea that naturalism or materialism is some brand new idea that came around in the past 50 years."
But that's not the point, Crude. Every day since breaking away from the manacles of theism, all the various sciences and every other investigative human activity other than theology are all consistently dovetailing and inexorably exposing the soft metaphysical underbelly of christian theism for the mythos that it is and continues to demonstrate again and again the foundational conception of materialism and naturalism. The more we understand about the world and us, through anthropology, sociology, the neuro-sciences, medicine, technology, physics, chemistry, biology etc etc, the quicker theological explanations fade into the dust of history. Naturalism and materialism are quintessential aspects that define us, the world and the universe. Without the material us without a material brain, there would be no us. Indeed there would be no god concept, just there would be no legend of Jason and the Argonauts or believing in the ubiquitous rain dance. Not only is the god concept but a process of ideation derived from an active and creative brain, it is also a wholly-owned derivative and product of the natural evolutionary development of that brain and the natural evolutionary process that we are increasingly becoming to understand for life on this earth.
Ben says of me, "Says the guy who equivocates between "unnatural" vs "supernatural".
I though I made it clear there is no supernatural. There is natural and naturalism, and it can be proved. As for supernaturalism, it is just ...... thinking patterns, with the Abrahamic god sharing the same basket as Superman and Gulliver's Travels, and Spiderman and Zeus and Thor. Surely with close to a billion adherents as does Hinduism, the reality of Ganesh, an elephant-headed deity, son of Shiva and Parvati, worshiped by that billion as the remover of obstacles and patron of learning, who is usually depicted colored red, with a potbelly and one broken tusk, riding a rat, should have alerted you two, and Victor, to the possibility that gods and satans and nephilim, and seraphim and angels and the walking dead and all things that go bump in the night, might not be a kosher concept of reality?
A materialist reductionist is a natural phenomenon, and it is a category error to compare it with Traditionalist Thomist . A Traditionalist Thomist is just someone parodying someone else's life. - January 22, 2012 9:10 PM
- Son of Ya'Kov said...
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>But that's not the point, Crude.
Then why make such a big deal of the fact Aquinas philosophy was from 100 years ago?
You where clearly trying to imply it was pre-scientific & pre-modern thus somehow primitive & thus flase because it's old.
Now you are backpedaling because I pointed out Democretus came up with Atheist Materialism.
BTW did you know Democretus was also a Flat-Earther?
(What does that have to do with the truth or falsehood of Materialism or Atheism? Nothing I just thought I play with your fundie paranoia).
Your version of Atheism is still low brow?
Accept it. Try to learn philosophy then maybe one day you can actually argue. - January 22, 2012 11:31 PM
- Papalinton said...
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- January 23, 2012 2:34 AM
- Papalinton said...
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">But that's not the point, Crude.
Then why make such a big deal of the fact Aquinas philosophy was from 100 years ago?"
The point so clearly enumerated is that naturalism and materialism and atheism, together with Aquinas's and Aristotle's and Plato's philosophical musings, may have emerged in the distant passed, but it is only naturalism and materialism, together with empiricism, that has emerged as the foundation of substantive knowledge. Knowledge through christian theology has not made a new or fresh dent in our understanding of the world, the universe or the human condition since Aquinas's time. The development of theistic knowledge building on Aquinas's contribution has been non-existent. There has been no continuing development in metaphysics or theology; no progress in god studies that has opened up fresh, new and exciting frontiers of investigation. Indeed god studies has been in static hiatus since Aquinas. A thousand years of marching on the spot.
By contrast, just about, if not every field of human activity, outside theology, has witnessed exponential growth, and a unified narrative despite the widely diverse fields of study has emerged, confirming naturalism and materialism as the core of the knowledge base and understanding of the universe, life and the relationships between organic and inorganic existence. The explanatory power of these diverse disciplines is consistent, uniform, reliable and predictable. Again contrast this with the theological narrative; illusory, nebulous, inconsistent, conflicting, self-contradictory, unearthly, ethereal, unknowable, indistinct, blurred and shadowy. And there is no way of knowing if one or any religious tradition has a foundation in truth and reality. Ask a christian. Then ask a Muslim. Then ask a Hindi. Then ask a buddhist. Then ask a mormon. Then ask a Jew. Then ask a catholic. Then ask a Calvinist. Then ask a Jehovah's Witness. Then ask a Taoist. And on and on and on.
C'mon boys! Meddling in theology is simply dabbling at the margins. This has been the trend since the Enlightenment. And the sciences and correlative disciplines are at the frontline. Religion is a follower, a hanger-on, not a leader, an innovator, trailblazer, groundbreaker, or pathfinder. It has reached its use-by date in the Western world. And the after-process over time will eventually flow into Africa and the Far East. - January 23, 2012 2:41 AM
- Son of Ya'Kov said...
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>it is only naturalism and materialism, together with empiricism, that has emerged as the foundation of substantive knowledge.
More Low Brow fundamentalism instead of solid philosophical argument.
Since your "It's old therefore it's wrong" meme has failed spectacularly you are now pushing "Rah! Rah! Naturalism! Rah! Rah! Empiricism! Rah! Rah Materialism!".
Do you just make up any old shit off the top of your head & hope nobody notices?
Cause it still doesn't work fundie. - January 23, 2012 7:15 AM
- Papalinton said...
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"Since your "It's old therefore it's wrong" meme has failed spectacularly you are now pushing "Rah! Rah! Naturalism! Rah! Rah! Empiricism! Rah! Rah Materialism!".
Do you just make up any old shit off the top of your head & hope nobody notices?"
So, you concede the point then. - January 23, 2012 3:39 PM
- Crude said...
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Do you just make up any old shit off the top of your head & hope nobody notices?
Of course he does. You think he cares about knowing anything? He's here to be heard.
Didn't you see the commercial he made? ;) - January 23, 2012 3:47 PM
- Son of Ya'Kov said...
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>So, you concede the point then.
There is a point? Since when? - January 23, 2012 4:38 PM
- Son of Ya'Kov said...
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- January 24, 2012 8:25 AM
- Papalinton said...
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Where are the 'newest' comments?
- January 25, 2012 3:13 PM
In each of these cases, one can back up to a far more minimal conception of what is required. But then it is very difficult to go anywhere with the argument in its subsequent steps. If B can be accepted only in a fairly minimal sense, then it is not at all obvious that D is true. Conversely, in the sense in which D is obviously true, A2 and B are just as obviously false. So the argument gains no traction.
To say this is not to say that it would not be desirable for Christians to have better, fuller knowledge on some of these points; nor is it to say that such knowledge is not available. But the hinge of the argument is the claim in A2 that Christians would need a set of G-beliefs in order to have a personal relationship with God. And Drange gives no good reason to think that this claim is both (a) true and (b) substantive enough to support his subsequent chain of reasoning.