Saturday, August 08, 2009

Why Believe in Satan? Look around the world

This is a nice post by J. D. Walters.

6 comments:

Blue Devil Knight said...

So JD is advocating demonic influence theories of human behavior, and you think it is a good post. Just did a double take.

Robert said...

Hello Victor,

True story: There was once a church member concerned about the youth in his area who were getting involved in some wrong things. He knew the young people, knew they were already hardened about life, antagonitic towards "religion" and he didn’t feel confident addressing them. So he contacted the local church pastor believing that he could help, and asked if he would be willing to talk to these young people (between 14-18 and there were 10). The pastor thought it was a great idea and a meeting was set up. The pastor said they could talk about whatever they wanted and ask any question of the pastor.

At the meeting the pastor quickly figured out that these young people were very smart, un-churched with little experience with a local church, had experienced some very tough circumstances in their lives, he also determined that the leader and also the most intelligent one was a young man named “Ben”.

At one point in the meeting Ben made a sarcastic profanity laced comment about “belief in an imaginary devil.” The pastor immediately addressed the comment and said to Ben: “OK, Ben, I know that you don’t believe that there is a real devil. But I want you to assume that the bible and Christianity is true, that the devil is real and extremely intelligent and a spiritual being not some goofy guy in a red suit with a pitchfork, and assume he is out to keep people away from the God of the bible. Now Ben you are smart: I want you to imagine you were the devil and tell us what would you do to keep people away from the true God??”

Ben - “Well I would invent some false beliefs to get people away from the truth.” Pastor –“Just a few?” Ben - “No, lots, the more the better, I want people so confused they doubt that truth even exists.” Pastor – “And how would you attract people to these false religions of yours?” Ben - “I would have enough truth to suck them in, I would trick the people so they would get in.” Pastor “And how would you attack the truth, Christianity?” Ben – “I would make people question it, not take it seriously. I would mock it and make it not cool to be part of it. I would develop some smart people to attack it with books and talks. The smarter they are the more useful they would be for me. And I would convince people that the truth is a lie.” Pastor “And how would you deal with people to stop them from knowing what you were up to?” Ben – “First, I would want people to think that I don’t exist. That way they would not take me seriously. I mean if I am not real I can’t be . . . . with people. Then I would make people think that I am something very different than I really am so they won’t ask questions. The only thing I want them questioning is the truth, everything else is OK.” The pastor asked some more questions (e.g. about evil and suffering in the world, Ben thought a very effective strategy of attack was to get people who suffer to think that God wanted the worst evils imaginable to happen to them, that way He would not be held responsible for evil things he was doing and people would blame God for everything not knowing that there was an actual conflict between God and the devil going on, etc.) and Ben continued to share his own invented “theology of Satan”.

The pastor then asked one final question: “OK, Ben thanks for thinking this through and pretending to be the devil. Now Ben how does your pretending here compare with what is really happening out there in the real world?”

To which Ben gasped and replied: “Oh my God he exists!” You could have heard a pin drop at that point because everybody in that room realized the same thing: everything that Ben came up, off the top of his head, seems to actually be occurring in the real world.

Robert

Edward T. Babinski said...

Robert said... "True story."

Is that all it takes for a Christian to believe a story is true?

Edward T. Babinski said...

On J.D.'s blog piece,

Where exactly is "Satan" in the horrendous actions of some Congalese?

Such folks may have been immature, ignorant, half starved, nutritionally deficient, paranoic, brainwashed by pain and sorrow and torture, and an increasingly desensatized social context, or by long-standing blood feuds, or by cultural and religious divides. But "influenced by Satan?"

Of course medieval theologians as well as early Reformers like Martin Luther apparently found "Satan" lurking everywhere and once boasted about throwing an inkpot at old Split-foot himself. (The following quotations, unless otherwise stated, are from Table Talk, a volume in The Collected Works of Martin Luther):

Snakes and monkeys are subjected to the demon more than other animals. Satan lives in them and possesses them. He uses them to deceive men and to injure them.

In my country, upon a mountain called Polterberg, there is a pool. If one throws a stone into it, instantly a storm arises and the whole surrounding countryside is overwhelmed by it. This lake is full of demons; Satan holds them captive there.

Demons are in woods, in waters, in wildernesses, and in dark pooly places ready to hurt and prejudice people; some are also in thick black clouds, which cause hail, lightning and thunder, and poison the air, the pastures and grounds.

How often have not the demons called “Nix,” drawn women and girls into the water, and there had commerce with them, With fearful consequences.

I myself saw and touched at Dessay, a child that had no human parents, but had proceeded from the Devil. He was twelve years old, and, in outward form, exactly resembled ordinary children.

A large number of deaf, crippled and blind people are afflicted solely through the malice of the demon. And one must in no wise doubt that plagues, fevers and every sort of evil come from him.

Our bodies are always exposed to the attacks of Satan. The maladies I suffer are not natural, but Devil’s spells.

As for the demented, I hold it certain that all beings deprived of reason are thus afflicted only by the Devil.

Satan produces all the maladies that afflict mankind for he is the prince of death.

(Who needs modern medicine or sanitation practices? What we really need, according to Luther, are more exorcists to heal “all the maladies which afflict mankind.” Yet even the “apple” of “God’s eye,” the ancient Hebrews, did not enjoy unparalleled good health judging by the lengthy number of illnesses mentioned in the book of Deuteronomy. And what about Luther and Calvin’s devilishly recurring stomach and bowel problems? Dare I suggest that the early invention of Ex-lax and Pepto-Bismol might have proven more helpful to mankind than some of Luther and Calvin’s teachings?--E.T.B.)

I would have no compassion on a witch; I would burn them all. (Luther, Table Talk)

When I was a child there were many witches, and they bewitched both cattle and men, especially children. (Luther, Commentary on Galatians)

The heathen writes that the Comet may arise from natural causes; but God creates not one that does not foretoken a sure calamity. (Luther, Advent Sermon)

Martin Luther

[For further quotations like those above, see Heiko Oberman, Luther: Man Between God and the Devil]

Robert said...

Edward T. Babinsky quoted me as saying and then wrote:

"Robert said... "True story."

Is that all it takes for a Christian to believe a story is true?"

He then launched into one of his typical tirades against Christianity attempting to mock and attack the faith.

Edward T. Babinsky how do ****you**** know that the story is not true?????

I find it interesting that you doubt the story, probably because this young man Ben merely by thinking things through knows more about the devil than you do. He also had the sense to recognize that the devil in fact mocks and attacks the truth, Christianity, while basically leaving the other faiths alone. Recall that Ben said that if he were the devil he would attack and mock Christianity and he would attempt to convince people that the “truth is a lie”. Recall that Ben also said that the devil would use as his own pawns intelligent and educated people to try to attack and discredit Christianity (he said through books and talks, but that was years ago before the advent of the internet, and is now done by folks like you via the internet).

What I find ironic is that I would bet the farm that you don't believe that the devil exists (which is one of the tricks Ben said about the devil: to convince people that he doesn't even exist so that he can mess with them and they don't even know it). And here you are doing exactly what Ben said the devil would have his pawns doing: mocking and attacking Christianity. How ironic!

I have noted on numerous occasions on this blog that Victor and others are trying to have rational and civil discussions of all sorts of things including the existence of the devil, and you always come in and interrupt and write these posts mocking and attacking Christianity. I would also bet that you don't go to Muslim sites or Mormon sites or whatever else and mock and attack their beliefs. No, you focus on Christianity, that is your primary target, just like the devil and his pawns do.

From seeing your multitudinous posts it seems that you are obsessed with mocking and attacking Christianity. You kinda remind me of someone that I read about once. Ever read Melville's MOBY DICK? You strike me as **Ahab** with the God of Christianity being **your** white whale. You want to destroy that white whale so bad and yet in the end if you continue in your attack, you, not the whale, will be destroyed. This is because of a simple truth that Ben also realized: if you attack the truth you will not win, you will lose and if that truth you attack is God then you will lose in a very big way.

Oh and by the way, regarding the truth of the story, while you were not there, I **know** the story is true, because I was there.

Robert

8472 said...

I'm not a hypocrite. All of my inadequacies and short comings are the result of SATAN masking the truth!