Monday, May 18, 2009

On the basis of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict

The founding of the Abrahamic traditions took place in the land of Israel. All the three monotheistic religions think of that land as sacred. It fell into Islamic hands, the Christians fought the Crusades, and the Muslims fought tooth and nail to hold onto those holy places. In 1948 the United Nations said the Jews should be put into that country and the indigenous Muslims have to move.

Shoot, people even get mad when their house is foreclosed on. Often they take out all the light fixtures, smash in the walls, take the appliances and kitchen cabinets, not to mention taking out all the toilets and the garage door. That's what people do when the don't have any religious belief that the land they occupy is sacred.

Is the Israeli-Palestinian conflict hard to understand? Not to me.


Ilíon said...

On the other hand, of course, the the Holy Land didn't simply "fall into Moslem hands."

And, no one kicked anyone off their land. Going back decades before the foundation is the Israeli state, the Jews *bought* the land from the landowners.

Furthermore, Islam has next to nothing to do with Abraham, nor with the God of the Bible. The Arabs may be descended from Abraham, but the Arab-supremecism (and desert-briggand culture) which is Islam does not descend from his trust in God.

Blue Devil Knight said...

My first reaction was also to the passive expression 'fell into Muslim hands,' as if that is the beginning of the history of the region. IT seems a bit tendentious to describe the 7th century Muslim conquest of the region is "falling into" their hands.

If we follow your logic back in time, we'd expect the Jews to be pissed. Heck, they think God set that land aside for them, and they were there first, and for thousands of years people have been trying to keep them away from this plot of land (historically, we know the latter is true).

That said, I understand the Palestinian's complaints. The formation of Israel was a bit of a sledgehammer. However, the Muslims need to grow up and realize Israel is here to stay. It's been over 60 years. Quit crying and being silly, and work toward a reasonable settlement. For goodness' sake, it's like dealing with children.

Blue Devil Knight said...

The Arabs that want to annihilate Israel are like Southernors who think the South will "rise again". Sadly, they are worse, because they don't just believe it over moonshine reminiscing with grandpa and aunt Lily. They seem to believe it in the sober light of day. Eminent domain might be a good example: in this case, the highway is built where their house was, but they still entertain hopes that their straw shack in the desert will one day be resurrected.

Gordon Knight said...

BDK: On that logic, we should all be giving our land back to the Native Americans.

This historical justification is just silly. Conquest is a part of history. Youc cannot use 1000 year old conquests to justify causing massive suffering NOW.

And anyway, didn't the Jews steal the land from the canaanites?

Doctor Logic said...

Hear, hear, Gordon!

Historically, it seems the Israelites were Canaanites who dissolved into the hills, only to re-emerge some time later.

[Word verification: mentl]

Blue Devil Knight said...

Gordon: I'm not sure what you think I think, but I never said anyone should give land back to anyone. My point was that regardless of the history, Israel is here to stay and people fighting that are being foolish (hence my analogy with southernors and such).

I brought up history simply to use Victor's logic against him, not to argue that anyone should be giving land back. I don't know where you got that from what I wrote.

Saying someone is justified in being annoyed that they were booted from the land is different from saying they should get the land back. That's why I brought up the 'South will rise again' and eminent domain examples.

Gordon Knight said...

Sorry, i misread the crucial "if we followed your logic" part. i read (and type) often faster than I think.

Victor Reppert said...

What I was claiming was that I understand why the Palestinians are angry. People sometimes attribute Arab-Israeli conflict to some deep historic hatred between the religions, which is not borne out by history. If it were Christians occupying the Holy Land the Muslims very much want us to leave, just as they fought hard against the Crusades.

Ilíon said...

VR: "... Arab-Israeli conflict to some deep historic hatred between the religions, which is not borne out by history. ..."

What alternate reality did you blow in from? Islam *demands* that Moslems hate and continuously fight to conquer the peoples of other religions, and most especially the Jews. Islam is the assertion Ishmael, and not Isaac, was the second Patriarch.

Victor Reppert said...

And yet Jews, throughout the Middle Ages, by and large preferered living in Islamic countries to living in Christian countries. They were not treated perfectly by any means, but at least they were not treated as Christ-killers.

The Christian record of anti-Semitism is pretty dismal, and Christians need to face up to it.

Blue Devil Knight said...

Victor: that is an interesting point about Jews living amongst Muslims. I know nothing about that, but it would be interesting to study it. I guess you are talking about the Sephardic Jews as opposed to the Ashkenazis. It would be interesting to study which went through a worse hell. For instance, I assume the Ashkenazi Jews were perseceuted more during WWII by the Axis powers.

Ilíon said...

Again, what alternate reality did you blow in from?

"Christian" anti-semitism is, and has always been, and has always been know to be contrary to Christianity.

Islam, in contrast, *demands* the persecution of Jews.

In the hope that this link will deliver the same preview to you: Moses Maimonides -- the book is in that section explaining why Maimonides gave the legal opinion that it is permissible to teach Torah to Christians but not to Moslems.

Are you really so naive as to believe that the conflicts and persecutions between the two communities was a one-way thing? Dhu NuwasDoes a Gentile really need to have Jewish ancestry, as I do, to be able to admit that Jews are also fallen human beings?

Ilíon said...

I find incredible this tender solicitude for long-dead Jews coupled with seeming indifference about the lives and fates of living Jews.

Ilíon said...

Regarding a comparison of the treatment of Jews during Medieval times in "Christendom" and in the ummah -- most of what you think you know about the horrors Jews endured under Christian (or "Christian") rule just ain't so; likewise, most of what you think you know about the idyll of living under Moslem rule just ain’t so.

What you “know” is a deliberate concoction of some French anti-Christian socialists (and frequently of Jewish ancestry, but despising Judaism as that sort always does).

Ilíon said...

In (once again) the hope that lis link will pull up the same preview: The Oxford Handbook of Jewish Studies

Ilíon said...

Here is Bat Ye'or responding to the previous author's charge of a contemporary counter-myth being used to replace the old "Golden Age" myth: Islam and the Dhimmis

Gordon Knight said...

I have often thought the best solution to the Jerusalem question is to give it to the Pope.