Wednesday, March 29, 2017

On keeping what you earn

Ilion: Is a free man free to keep the wealth he produces and to use it as he sees fit, rather than to have it confiscated by vote-buying politicians?

VR: Sure! So, let us say that you can afford to defend yourself against ISIS terrorists and dangerous foreign governments. You earned the money to do so, after all. But the bleeding-heart vote-buying politicians who run the government want to confiscate your money so that they can defend not only you, but all those welfare queens in the middle and lower classes, who, after all, only want to be defended against terrorism using other people's money. And why, in the name of Ayn Rand, should they be allowed to do such a thing? 

28 comments:

Ilíon said...

You leftists don't really "do" intellectual honesty, do you?

Steve Lovell said...

Ilion, there was no less honesty or rigour in VR's comments here than there were in the comment of yours to which this was a response. If you want people here to take you seriously you'll have to do more than posture and throw around insults and straw men.

Ilíon said...

But Steven Lovell, you're a liar, and we all know it.

Steve Lovell said...

Thanks for confirming what I just said about you Ilion. You walked right into it.

Ilíon said...

What? Did I step on you?

Ilíon said...

No man can serve two masters

Jimmy S. M. said...

If one found himself marooned on a deserted island, then absolutely. Excluding such a scenario, we all depend on a complicated network of resources to produce anything, and taxes are one way we pay to have access to that network.

Joe Hinman said...

how many right people actually pave the roads they drive on? how many dig the coal and produce the capital and actually do anything to make the wold such that they can exploit it;s wealth?

If they are going to pay people to do such things they have to pay them a going rate, what if hey cheat? Obviously we have to have enforcers to make sure they don't.we have to pay them.It's a big complex web called civilization. One thing leads to another, it all has to run in balance and justice is what keeps the balance.

Mortal said...

If one professes to be a Christian, then he must accept both the Old and the New Testaments as the inspired word of God. And one of the most intriguing features of the Old Testament is how quite literally everything is expressed in both individual and societal terms. The individual Hebrew is neither right nor not right with God; that being the end of the story. But the Nation of Israel is (or is not) right with God, and that completes the picture.

We Christians also must also apply the same standard to ourselves. We are not saved (or damned) as monads, but rather as members of a whole, be it our church, our city, our nation, or the world.

"Love your neighbor as yourself." (Leviticus)
"Am I my brother's keeper?" ["Yes"] (Genesis)
"Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me." (Jesus, per Matthew)
"Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world." (James)
Plus, every last prophet, in 10,000 places!

It is a clear command from God to care for one another - to aid in their being fed, clothed, housed, employed, and cared for when sick. ("I was sick, and you visited me.")

Ilíon said...

Oh, do you mean something like Leviticus 19:15? "Do not pervert justice; do not show partiality to the poor or favoritism to the great, but judge your neighbor fairly."

Do you mean something like "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, for this sums up the law and the prophets"? -- which is especially ironic when considering leftists who claim to be Christian ... and then bitch when *they* get caught in the tax-man's snare which they were so happy to set of us "selfish" conservatives.

"It is a clear command from God to care for one another - to aid in their being fed, clothed, housed, employed, and cared for when sick. ("I was sick, and you visited me.")"

^ Do you people really imagine that no one sees your intellectual dishonesty?

You are not talking about "a clear command from God to care for one another"; you are trying to justify your immoral and anti-Christ wish to use State violence to rob your neighbor so that some of the swag will trickle down to you.

Mortal said...

You are trying to justify your immoral and anti-Christ wish to use State violence to rob your neighbor so that some of the swag will trickle down to you.

As far as "entitlements," I get nothing from the state (at least, nothing that I am aware of).

What I do get is national defense, law enforcement and a mostly equitable justice system, a universally accepted currency for my transactions, good roads and traffic safety, schools and state universities, clean air and water (well, at least until a day or so ago, when our fake president took them from us), consumer safety standards, effective prescription drugs that won't kill me, cultural enrichment, cutting edge scientific and medical research, international order and trade, plus far too many other items to list.

Oh, and I get a society I am proud to be part of, which is worthy of contributing to (and that includes people being healthy).

Legion of Logic said...

"If one professes to be a Christian, then he must accept both the Old and the New Testaments as the inspired word of God."

Yes, but one does not have to apply OT doctrine to the church. In fact, one should not.

America is not Israel.

Steve Lovell said...

Ilion, you just wrote:

you are trying to justify your immoral and anti-Christ wish to use State violence to rob your neighbor so that some of the swag will trickle down to you.

Do you attribute those motives to everyone 'on the left'? You give the impression that you do. If so, on what possible basis?

Mortal said...

Yes, but one does not have to apply OT doctrine to the church. In fact, one should not.

How strange, because that is precisely what both Jesus and the Apostles did. Remember, when any New Testament writer (or speaker) refers to "the Scriptures," he's talking about the Old Testament.

There is no contradiction whatsoever between anything in the Old Testament and Christianity. And don't even think about bringing up the Mosaic Law. That has been dealt with more than adequately in Acts and the letters of Paul.

Mortal said...

Ilion,

Was Our Lord being "intellectually dishonest" when He said that the sole criterion for whether or not we are welcomed into His Kingdom on the Day of Judgement will be how we responded to the needs of "the least" among us?

Legion of Logic said...

"And don't even think about bringing up the Mosaic Law."

As you say, it was dealt with by Paul and in Acts, which is why I don't apply the doctrines to myself. I would have to ignore Christian doctrine in order to apply the OT.

Out of curiosity, what OT doctrines are you talking about?

Mortal said...

What OT doctrines are you talking about?

None. I am speaking an attitude of intimate membership in a society, in which one's own righteousness is tied up with that of the nation one lives in. The Old Testament is soaked in this perspective. All the prophets speak of this. Judging by the amount of verbiage devoted to each, an individual's "rightness with God" is not more important than society's. The health of the nation has an equal weight to that of one's own soul. In fact, the primary value of the righteous "remnant" appears to be its role in keeping the Nation of Israel/Judah alive.

We do not exist solely as monads. Whether we like it or not, we are members of our respective communities, and have divinely commanded responsibilities toward the fellow members of whatever community we are part of.

And contrary to Ilion's apparent Ayn Randian Libertarianism, we are to fulfill these responsibilities not only as individuals (e.g., personal charity), but also corporately, through societal (a.k.a., governmental) means. They are the right and left hands of our response to the poor and needy around us.

Yes, it is vitally, crucially important to give alms, to donate one's personal time and resources to alleviating the suffering around us. But it is no less important to support corporate efforts to alleviate the same (e.g., through paying one's taxes and supporting various programs). To say otherwise is to suggest that it is better to fight an opponent with one hand tied behind your back!

William said...

"If they are going to pay people to do such things they have to pay them a going rate, what if hey cheat? Obviously we have to have enforcers to make sure they don't.we have to pay them.It's a big complex web called civilization."

It's more basic than that. The government issues the money. If we use government currency (physical or electronic) we put ourselves in a position where taxes in that currency are legit, even if they are not used (as in Mortal's excuses above) corporate benefit at all. That is one lesson of Jesus' pointing to Ceasar on the coin in the gospels.

It's also legit to try to go to a different country and do business where those taxes do not apply. Lots of businesses try to do that.

Mortal said...

William,

I'm curious. What did you mean by the expression "Mortal's excuses"? Am I being too sensitive, perhaps reading too much into your wording? Or are there nuances I cannot discern here?

Victor Reppert said...

Here is the problem. Not even conservatives want to say that people should be able to keep all they earn. Money for defense in necessary. It it taken from people in exactly the same way that money for Medicare or socialized medicine is taken, through taxation.

The military protects me from ISIS. Medicine protects me from cancer. No conservative ever complains about a socialized military. They all complain about socialized medicine. Why? Protection is protection.

Joe Hinman said...

egion of Logic said...
"If one professes to be a Christian, then he must accept both the Old and the New Testaments as the inspired word of God."

Yes, but one does not have to apply OT doctrine to the church. In fact, one should not.

America is not Israel.


I agree we re not Israel but who the hell ever said to be a Christian you must accept that the OT is inspired> nothing like in the Bible there is no passage that says there is a bible.

animal farm they changed the sign, evangelicals have forgotten the Gospel, tey stuck in their baggage of inerrency.

Joe Hinman said...

If one assumes he knows the heart of his enemy,that his view of the world is the only truth any departure from it is automatically proof the evil unblinking in the hearts of those who don't accept the political baggage he accepts, one is always going to dogmatically assume that anything the other guy says is deceitfully wicked,what's the point of talking?

The right wingers so passionately believe the word of God and don't give a damn what it says.

He quotes one passage that says don't favor the poor or the rich,It's Talking about justice not politics. His politics are not about justice they favor the rich and they seek to murder the poor.

here is what the bible says about the poor:

here

there is a first part about poverty go past that to the passages

Joe Hinman said...

The canon of OT was ot closed in time of Paul Jamnia wasn't until the 90s when Apostles were all dead (except maybe John_) so when NT says Scripture it could well mean to include th ascension of Moses or Siboline oracles or other apocrypha.

Joe Hinman said...

líon said...
But Steven Lovell, you're a liar, and we all know it.

March 30, 2017 3:50 AM
Blogger Steve Lovell said...
Thanks for confirming what I just said about you Ilion. You walked right into it.

March 30, 2017 4:37 AM
Blogger Ilíon said...
What? Did I step on you?

(1) some irresponsible hippie once said :by their fruits you shall know themn."

(2) hat are the fruits of the spirit?

Joe Hinman said...

None. I am speaking an attitude of intimate membership in a society, in which one's own righteousness is tied up with that of the nation one lives in. The Old Testament is soaked in this perspective. All the prophets speak of this. Judging by the amount of verbiage devoted to each, an individual's "rightness with God" is not more important than society's. The health of the nation has an equal weight to that of one's own soul. In fact, the primary value of the righteous "remnant" appears to be its role in keeping the Nation of Israel/Judah alive.

We do not exist solely as monads. Whether we like it or not, we are members of our respective communities, and have divinely commanded responsibilities toward the fellow members of whatever community we are part of.

problem is everyone wants his own vision to determine who teh country is really for and whatit really jenas,who are:we tehypeople.: it's not all people

If I treatedIdiot the he treatsme,assuimg I know his heart like he assumes he knowsminem here;s the wayh itwouldlook:that's the fallacy of the right wing talk abort restoring America to greatness, America is their little toy, it's their thing they own it it was made for them,Samuel Adams and George Washington knew McGovern and Roosevelt were coming and they knew their revolution wss for the sake of Trump and Nixon not McGovern or other democrats,


when right wingers talk about society and social good its for their little 1% of owners who own most of the stuff, It is for then that America exists and their servants the Republicans who are going to be among teh 1% some day.

"We the people" = "We the 1%."

when a liberal talks about social good and society he's an evil communist, trey want to let brown people control things. that was the horror of Obama letting brown skin guy be President just to close to the night mare of 1% losing control.

poor people are trash under the feet of the 1% and killing then is just culling the herd.if Idiot can decide he knows whats in my heartkandh eknows whatmy truemotivationsare, here;s whatI think his are,

Joe Hinman said...


Mystical experience as a God argument"

The argument from religious experience is deemed too subjective to be of any real interest to rationally minded skeptics. Yet over the last 50 years, a huge body of empirical scientific work has emerged in peer reviewed journals that strengthens the case for religious experience as a God argument. Unfortunately, this body of work is largely confined to psychology of religion and is virtually unknown to theology or even religious studies. In this paper I examine the research methods used in this body of work, particular attention to the mysticism scale developed by Ralph Hood Jr. (University of Tennessee at Chattanooga). I then apply the findings to an argument from religious experience. After demonstrating how the data supports the argument I will deal with two major issues: (1) Is an argument based upon the universal nature of these experiences appropriately Christian, or does it undermine a Christian witness by implying a unilateralist perspective? (2) Do counter causality arguments based upon brain chemistry and structure disprove the argument? Finally, I present “six tie breakers” that warrant decision in answer to the brain structure argument.


Part 2 my article summarizing my book

JONATHAN SPERRY said...

These big companies only care about money and profits they could get. They
don't care what will be the effect of their greediness to all the people
and their surroundings what really causes cancer are all this preserve food
they are making, how can a preserve food last for three months, i have been
buying preserved food for my kids as a single father because i do not have
enough time for my kids due to my job, then suddenly my first daughter feel
sick and i quickly run a check on her and discovered she was diagnosed of
cancer, as a Doctor i looked for cure but couldn't find any my daughter
started taking drugs like her whole life depends on it, it wasn't working
the cancer was still spreading i searched more on the internet i found a
testimony on how it cured someone then .i copied the email immediately the
email ricksimpsoncannabisoil41@gmail.com i wrote to this very email
ricksimpsoncannabisoil41@gmail.com, in an hour i got a feedback asking me
few questions, and enlightened me on how to get the oil in the next
48hours, i placed my order and in the next 48hours the medication oil got
to me in Nairobi Kenya immediately my daughter started using the oil, it
been two months now, since my daughter has been using the medication oil
and the cancerous problems are gone this very fact was clarified by me and
other doctors

Ilíon said...

^ It's so unfair, isn't it? *You* work for free (which is to say, at a loss); why does everyone else insist upon turning a profit? It's GREED! That's all it can be: people and companies who work only if they can turn a profit by that work are GREEDY! and EVIL!