Monday, February 01, 2010

Lydia McGrew on Animal Salvation

HT; Steve Hays. But if animals can be saved, can they also be lost? If you are a Calvinist, does animal reprobation become a possibility.

In The Problem of Pain, Lewis answered the question "Where would you put all the mosquitoes?" by pointing out that a heaven for mosquitoes and a hell for men could effectively be combined.


steve said...

Needless to say, the answer varies depending on whether you ask a supralapsarian, sublapsarian, or infralapsarian Calvinist.

But, as a rule, Arminian dogs are predestined to hell whereas all Calvinist dogs are predestined to heaven.

As for the fate of Lutheran dogs, I'll have to ask Gabriel the next time he drops in.

Put another way, if a dog scores 3 out of 5 on TULIP, he's probably heavenbound–although the secret decree, being oh-so secretive–it's hard to say in advance.

steve said...

For a thorough treatment of this question, consult Spuds MacKenzie's Reformed Dog Matics.

Anonymous said...

Bob prokop writing:

I've always been inclined to go along with Walt Whitman on this one. Everything, and I do mean every living thing, down to the last microbe, is destined for immortality.

Gordon Knight said...

What Bob P said.

There is a lovely section from Bishop Butler's analogy of religion in which he defends (nonhuman) animal immortality.

The more we know about non-humans the clearer it is that the divide between human and non-human is, on earth, one of degree not kind.

One may say: Animals don't have the moral development to be saved or lost.

But so are we, when we are one year old.

Why suppose the non-human are stuck at the stage they are? why, indeed, suppose that we are at our zenith?

Quoth Walt:

What do you think has become of the young and old men?
And what do you think has become of the women and children?

They are alive and well somewhere, 40
The smallest sprout shows there is really no death,
And if ever there was it led forward life and does not wait at the end to arrest it,
And ceased the moment life appeared.

All goes onward and outward, nothing collapses,
And to die is different from what any one supposed, and luckier. 45

I know I am deathless,
I know this orbit of mine cannot be swept by a carpenter’s compass,
I know I shall not pass like a child’s carlacue cut with a burnt stick at night.

My old lit teacher said Whitman did not believe in personal immortality, but I did not (and don't) believe him. What does "I know I am deathless" mean.

Why don't more of these philosophy of religion guys/gals (including me) spend more time on Butler, who is so damn smart. It on my agenda, in the realm of the not yet.

The C. S Lewis of his age, and then some.

Whitman is just a kick ass poet.

Gordon Knight said...

Having Read LM'post and her worry, the obvious solution is that there is more in heaven and earth than heaven, hell, and earth.

If there is an afterlife, there is a lot more going on than that.

Anonymous said...

Bob Prokop writing:
Gordon Knight quoted some great lines. The ones I was thinking of were:
I swear I think now that every thing without exception has an eternal soul!
The trees have, rooted in the ground! the weeds of the sea have! the animals!
I swear I think there is nothing but immortality!
(from the poem "To Think of Time")

I believe philosphy in general would profit from a greater attention to poetry.

Mike Darus said...

It appears that poetry deviously clogs the mind with sentimentality. The lure of pantheism beguiles the unwitting.

Anonymous said...

All Arminian dogs go to hell--that sounds reasonable.

All Unitarian Universalist dogs go to hell, too--they get stuck with the Free Will Baptist dogs.

unkleE said...

"For a thorough treatment of this question, consult Spuds MacKenzie's Reformed Dog Matics."

I don't think this pun received the attention it deserved. So I will paws and say - Lol!!

But I thought a dogmatic was a small firearm capable of being used by police dogs!

Victor Reppert said...

Don't all dogs accept the Doctrines Of Grace?

Anonymous said...

Bob Prokop writing:
There is also a poem by the Englishman Francis Thomas, "The Hound of Heaven", first published in 1917. It was insanely popular in its time, and became the subject of many sermons for decades. I believe it is even alluded to in a "Peanuts" cartoon, if I remember correctly.

steve said...

Victor Reppert said...

"Don't all dogs accept the Doctrines Of Grace?"

As a rule, dog-matic affiliation breaks down along the following lines:

Afghan – Muslim
Bluetick Coonhound – Southern Baptist
Borzoi – Russian Orthodox
Boston Terrier – Catholic
Canaan Dog – Jewish
Carpathian Shepherd Dog – Goth
Chihuahua – Catholic
Chow Chow – Buddhist
Dachshund – Lutheran
Doberman – National Socialist
Dorset Olde Tyme Bulldogge – Methodist
Great Dane – Lutheran
Irish Setter – Catholic
Kai Ken – Shinto
Karakachan – Bulgarian Orthodox
Löwchen РCatholic
Neapolitan Mastiff – Catholic
Poodle – Existentialist
Rampur Hound – Hindu
Skye Terrier - Presbyterian
St. Bernard Dog – Calvinist
Sussex Spaniel – Anglican
Welsh Terrier – Calvinist-Methodist
Wetterhoun – Calvinist

Anonymous said...

Bob Prokop writing:

What about my German shorthaired pointer/Labrador mix?

steve said...

Anonymous said...

"What about my German shorthaired pointer/Labrador mix?"

That's a theologically unstable hybrid. High percentage of canine apostates in that category.

Anonymous said...

Bob Prokop writing:

Either that, or she's a "Cafeteria Catholic".

Edwardtbabinski said...

Lewis was a sicko at times, this proves it. Gee, an eternal heaven for mosquitoes in which they bite damned humans forever. Lewis could have taken it just a step further, maybe an eternal heaven for infectious microbes and parasites as well as sharks and tigers, feasting on damned humans forever.

I don't believe Adolf Hitler ever made such a sicko suggestion as Lewis did, nor attempted a defense of Christianity's eternal Dauchau.

But hey, I don't blame Lewis or even Jesus for coming up with an eternal Dauchau. Such ideas came to the fore among Intertestamental Jews and were simply carried on by Jesus and Christianity. Thanks Intertestamental Jews! Golly Gee, thanks!

Victor Reppert said...

I think Lewis was giving the question all the serious attention it deserved.