If any law-abiding citizen of a foreign country could come here legally in a reasonable amount of time, then there would be far less need for illegal immigration, and therefore less illegal immigration. If America didn't defund efforts to assist foreign nations in creating a more prosperity and safety in the home countries, there would be less illegal immigration. If we invested in adjudicators to decide asylum claims quickly and efficiently, there would be less illegal immigration. As a matter of justice, our leaders need to stop lying about prospective immigrants, and cut out the bald assertions that they are all out of prisons or asylums, or eating pets. We also need to stop discriminating against prospective immigrants based on country of origin (no Haitians, but Afrikaners from South Africa are free to come.) I have trouble seeing illegal immigrants as criminals when we have such Jim Crow immigration laws. Don't unjust laws deserve to be broken?
35 comments:
Stop lying. That would be a good start.
So you agree that the administration should stop lying?
You should
Is this your attempt at comedy, Victor, or do you not understand sovereign nations right to decide who they let in? Apply some of the logic of this post to your own house and see how bitter the irony tastes.
I believe what I said.
The house analogy is a lame one.
A "good" analogy can be seen as one where the two things being compared are in fact similar, and any differences found are insignificant. Analogies are generally more rhetorical tools then they are tools of logic, so the onus usually falls on the one objecting to the analogy to point out the differences. For example, if I were arguing against the first analogy, I might say:
"Because I don't have a 305 foot statue in my yard that reads 'Give me your tired, your poor/Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free'"
or a bit more serious...
"This is a weak analogy because virtually all people who break in homes cause harm to the homeowner, whereas a minuscule percentage of people who come to this country cause harm to its citizens."
Begging the Question: Don't be a victim of this fallacy by accepting the claims inherent in the question. The claim is that (1) illegal immigrants are dangerous. Are they? Maybe or maybe not. The other claim is that (2) protecting our borders will keep us safe. Does it? Again, maybe... but realize these are questions that should be asked, not assumed.
https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/questions/RTBJBC3w/are_these_good_analogies.html
Just because sovereign nations have the right to decide who enters the country does not mean that it is morally acceptable for them to make those decisions based on racism, or even solely on self-interest. We have moral obligations as a nation to people from neighboring countries who want to enter, humanitarian duties. Apply the Benthamite Greatest Happiness Principle, or even Rawls' difference principle, and you get the conclusion that our border restrictions in America are unjust.
So do I.
Applying the logic of the post to you, Victor, you'd be expected to create an efficient/fair process for allowing other people into your home. We're talking about non-criminals who are simply seeking a better life, and people from neighboring cities who are being persecuted.
Those "migrants" would stay at your home long term just like an immigrant at the border would. If they needed vetting you'd find a way to expedite this process. You'd apply consistent, non-discriminatory entry criteria for all migrants requesting entry to your home.
All of this is your moral obligation, so the logic of your post says.
That may indeed by my Christian duty. Of course, my home contains my property, while country is not my personal property. So letting someone into my home threatens my property rights, but illegal immigration does not. Of course on my proposal there would be less illegal immigration because it would be easier to get in legally. But I am not dismissing the idea that it might be my Christian duty to let someone into my home, and there is Scripture to back me up on that.
It is logically impossible to lie if you believe what you say.
"letting someone into my home threatens my property rights, but illegal immigration does not."
A country and all of its resources are the property of its citizens. Illegal immigration violates the rights of the citizens. That's why it's illegal to enter without proper permission.
"But I am not dismissing the idea that it might be my Christian duty to let someone into my home, and there is Scripture to back me up on that"
I don't think there is any scripture to back up the claim that Christians are obligated to let rando strangers live in their home long-term simply because they are seeking a better life, or because they are good, hard working people people. We should help people in need but that is a temporary situation that doesn't require permanent residence. We also have to ask the migrant in need why they didn't seek help at one of the 5 other neighborhoods that they walked through before arriving at your doorstep to ask for help.
"does not mean that it is morally acceptable for them to make those decisions based on racism, or even solely on self-interest'
It's not racism to say you don't want people that will negatively alter your own culture. If you wish to maintain a predominantly Western and Christian culture then you can't let in too many people who want to continue living a Mid-Eastern and Muslim culture. Some are okay, but too many and the culture will shift so that it starts looking like the place they came from. Look at Minnesota as an example. There are many more examples.
At some point the moral obligation becomes "no more", otherwise you are guilty of violating the rights of the citizens who, by virtue of them being the majority owners of the country, want to keep their culture in tact.
If I believe you are lying why would I believe it when you tell me that you believe what you say?
Why do you think I'm lying?
But we should give "proper permission" unless there is a good evidence that we shouldn't. Our country and its resources are not as limited as you imagine. There is plenty of room for immigrants, just as it was in the salad days of Ellis Island.
What evidence do you have that most people seeking to enter our country will harm our culture. Most of them are not Muslims. And plenty of Muslims are good citizens.
That's your position, not mine. My position is that sovereign nations have the right to decide who enters the country. Since you believe that you have an obligation at home why haven't you let a migrant live there?
I never made this claim.
Steve: No migrant has asked.
What country has a just border system?
Why do you think I'm lying?
Probably because you want to signal to your tribe members that you are still on their side even though you've made the distinction between legal and illegal aliens. Your tribe is vicious. Especially to members who step out of line.
SteveK,
Are you saying that importing people from a low trust society into a high trust society will end up turning the receiving society into a low trust society?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-trust_and_low-trust_societies
Give me your address and I'll pass it along to Catholic Charities.
Victor - The man on the side of the road didn't ask the priest, the Levite or the Samaritan to help him either, and we know what Jesus said about that situation. You say that you have an obligation, but you won't do anything.
"a high-trust society is one where interpersonal trust is relatively high, and where ethical values are strongly shared."
Should Christians expect a secular government to operate according to Christian principles? I don't think that expectation is reasonable. Christians can influence the culture, and by extension the government, but only if the people see Christians as relevant and valuable. I'm convinced the left-wing of the political divide doesn't see Christian's that way? The right-wing talks a good game and sometimes follows through, but they haven't really done anything either. One only has to look back over the past 40 years to see the decline. The immigration policy is one reason among many that explains the decline. We prioritized GDP over cultural integrity and trust -- both parties did this. Some were worse than others, some were better but not by much.
Notably the Samaritan paid for the injured mans care at the inn out of his own pocket. He didn't go about the community telling everyone how horrible they were for not paying the innkeeper while he kept his own money in his own pocket.
If orthodox leftists want to purge me, they can go ahead and make my day. The Democrats supported border security and even deported people when they were in. The idea that there are two and only two tribes, Trump and the right, and the Left, is our country's curse. I agree with the left about Trump: after that it's up for grabs.
If you haven't noticed, your tribe purges with bullets. Professing your TDS won't save you.
Most people who are not of the left will miss the point of this story. They focus on the man robbed and the man that helped him ignoring that they had both acquired their wealth off the back of the poor. It was justice that the rich man was separated from his ill gotten gains and justice that he suffered while being separated from it. Also Trump something something.
Someone. I don't know who. Needs to read this
I read that the other day and sent it to my wife for her opinion. We both pretty much agreed with what was said.
Illegal US-Mexico border crossings hit lowest level in over 50 years
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cp8wd8938e8o
The article said 11 million illegals came in during Biden's time in office. There were already supposedly 11 million illegals here. Those are probably low estimates. Then 25 million more here on visas. The highest percentage of foreign born in US history. Goodbye nation thanks to self-righteous smug boomers who want to burn the inheritance they were supposed to pass on to their children and grandchildren.
We have a choice. Fight to preserve our Western Christian culture and be willing to be called names, or keep believing the immigration lie that diversity is our strength and lose it all.
https://archive.ph/wKG0Q
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