I think the innocent until proven guilty rule has to apply to elections as well as to criminal cases. If, in order to be elected, you have to prove that there was no fraud, you could never elect anybody. Besides, stealing an election is a criminal offense. The expedient of locking someone up requires proof beyond a reasonable doubt. I think the expedient of overturning an election result requires a similar degree of proof. Trump and those like him think that it's OK to overturn elections because partisan officials assert, or even believe there was fraud. It doesn't work that way, and it shouldn't. None of the evidence provided in the case of the Arizona governor's race, or in the 2020 Presidential election, rises even to the level of a preponderance of the evidence (what is needed in a civil case), much less beyond reasonable doubt. You can't just scream FRAUD at the top of your lungs and float theories about Venezuelan voting machine software in order to get an election overturned. If that were true, then all Hillary would have needed to do would have been to make claims about Russian interference and she could get the 2016 election overturned. Without a high burden of proof for election fraud claims, chaos would result.
44 comments:
This is further proof that I and my ancestors are/were far more sophisticated than leftists give us credit for.
Indeed. And it came to light a few days ago that Trump paid several research firms to try to find evidence of fraud after the 2020 election, but then never released the findings, publicly or in court, since they could not find any evidence of widespread fraud.
Yet he and Kari Lake continue to shriek about fraud to this day, because they are narcissists who are physically incapable of being mature and taking responsibility for their loss.
This explains a lot
Individual citizens are innocent until proven guilty. The goverment and those who wield that power over the citizens are guilty until they prove their innocence. Same guilty first to powerful corporations. It's for the citizens and press to assume innocence to the indivual (e.g. Kyle Rittenhouse) while pressing the guilt of the goverment (e.g war in Iraq). Sorry Victor, your perspective is "a threat to Democracy" as the childish Left likes to say.
Hillary’s scream of FRAUD at the top of her lungs and theories about a Russian conspiracy led to a full FBI investigation into everyone in Trump’s circle. Once they launched the investigation, there were no limits into what they could look into. The Russians be damned.
All they needed to do was dig through travel records, financial records, ask questions they already knew the answer to in order to catch them on 18 U.S. Code 1001.
If the Republicans were as devious and corrupt as the Dems, they would have launched an investigation and thrown everyone in Biden’s orbit, including his goofy son Hunter, for spitting on the sidewalk. The news: “Twenty-Seven indictments in voter fraud investigation.” No one would go to jail for voter fraud, but who cares as long the FBI found something, anything on someone close to Biden
Dave,
If you haven't noticed, to lefties, hypocrisy is merely a weapon to be used on those foolish enough to take it seriously. They consider it "mission accomplished" if they discover you're concerned that they don't follow the rules they want you to follow. It means you're one of those that can be manipulated.
It's actually pretty creepy. But we live among creeps.
David Duffy,
Hillary’s scream of FRAUD at the top of her lungs ...
Didn't actually happen. That must be quite the bubble you live in.
If the Republicans were as devious and corrupt as the Dems, ...
While the Republicans are even more corrupt, it's true they might not be smart enough to be devious.
bmiller,
... hypocrisy is merely a weapon to be used on those foolish enough to take it seriously.
One used with glee by the Republicans, who complain about supposed groomers while supporting actual hebephiles in office.
Hillary Clinton said she would be President if not for Russian interference. I infer this interference as a form of fraud. It's an interpretation, not a bubble. I understand fraud to be intentional deception for personal or financial gain, which is what the Russians are accused of in the 2016 election.
There were multiple times Hillary claimed she would be president if not for Russian interference (deception, fraud). The claim is absurd. But she got what she wanted and that was to destroy people surrounding Trump. Alas she failed in her ultimate goal in overturning the election and the goon squads threat to democracy.
David Duffy,
Hillary Clinton said she would be President if not for Russian interference. I infer this interference as a form of fraud. It's an interpretation, not a bubble.
It's an interpretation counter to facts. Clinton was also clear that the interference was from propaganda. As long as your not requesting money, it's not fraud to pretend to be an American and spam Facebook.
But she got what she wanted and that was to destroy people surrounding Trump.
Those people destroyed themselves with their criminal activities.
Alas she failed in her ultimate goal in overturning the election and the goon squads threat to democracy.
You're describing the people on Jan. 6, 2021 who were pro-Trump.
> The goverment and those who wield that power over the citizens are guilty until they prove their innocence
Where is this philosophy written? Is this in the constitution?
>Hillary’s scream of FRAUD at the top of her lungs and theories about a Russian conspiracy led to a full FBI investigation into everyone in Trump’s circle
Yes, and the Republican-led commission found she was correct: Russia put its thumb on the scale in favor of Trump. It wasn't "fraud," it was foreign interference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_interference_in_the_2016_United_States_elections
By contrast, Trump's claims that there was widespread voter fraud (i.e. actual fake or invalid ballots) was always a lie from day one, and even his own inner circle told him this. Repeatedly. It's one reason why he's under investigation for criminal election interference in Georgia, for asking election officials to "find" enough votes to put him over the top.
The difference is that even if hyperbolic at times, Clinton's claims are rooted in reality (as discovered by the Republican commission), while Trump's claims are utter delusion with no basis in reality at all, not even a little. This also somewhat illustrates the distinction between a narcissist, a person who is full of themselves, and a malignant narcissist, a person who thinks they are God and surrounds themselves completely with fiction to keep reality out.
>Alas she failed in her ultimate goal in overturning the election and the goon squads threat to democracy.
Ridiculous. Clinton did not do any of this:
1. Send phony electors to Congress to try to get the VP to certify them instead of the real ones
2. Shriek about widespread ballot fraud without a shred of connection to reality, even after being told repeatedly that there is no basis for such claims
3. Try to strongarm a sympathetic potential AG, who would repeat these lies, into becoming the new AG
4. Ask the DOJ to "just SAY there was fraud, and leave the rest to me" (!!!!!!!!)
5. Harass election officials in multiple states to "find" enough votes
6. Harass the VP to illegally throw out the electoral results during counting
7. Rile up a mob with the above lies and encourage them to "take our country back." In a democracy, a country is "taken back" on election day, not after. If asking followers to "take back" the country long after the election, the implication is to do so by force or illegally.
And of course, conservatives have no answer to the above evils committed by Trump, but have to defend him because of the all-precious "R" after his name, the only thing that matters to Republicans, so they deflect, as David and bmiller have done above: wattabout wattaboutwattabout Clinton (throw her in jail too? and let's stop electing garbage humans to office...?), libruhls are emotional, etc.
Tu quoque, and ad hominem.
“As long as your not requesting money, it's not fraud…”
Nope. Fraud does not always include money. There can be voter fraud as an example. First fact wrong, almost dumb wrong.
“Those people destroyed themselves with their criminal activities.”
Have you spent any time looking at all the laws that govern us? I spent some time looking into a small section of the Code of Federal Regulations. We are all criminals if they want to press us on every letter of the law. Especially 18 U.S. Code 1001. I have no sympathy for the police state. The Republicans need to go full Police State on the Democrats (joke).
Again everyone in Biden’s circle could be thrown in jail on something if the Republicans were as stupid and vindictive as the Democrats. We can start with goofy Hunter Biden the crackhead who lied on a federal form to purchase a firearm. They can throw him in jail on the voter fraud investigation. I’m sure they can find something on everyone.
Throwing Hunter in jail for fraud in purchasing a firearm under a “Voter Fraud Investigation” is proof of voter fraud right? I’m joining Kari Lake, open an investigation, throw someone in jail for a mistake on their taxes and then claim to be vindicated by her voter fraud suspicions. Go full Democratic Party on the Democrats.
The Democrats threw someone in jail for a mistake on their taxes and then claimed it was voter fraud? Can you show who/when/where?
Martin, there are these retorical devices called sarcasm and irony. Look up the words, it may be of help to you in future conversations with humans on political topics.
David Duffy,
“As long as your not requesting money, it's not fraud…”
Nope. Fraud does not always include money. There can be voter fraud as an example. First fact wrong, almost dumb wrong.
Last I checked, voting was not the same as "... to pretend to be an American and spam Facebook.". I always try and choose the most charitable interpretation for for someone's choices. In this case, do you think it would be more charitable to say that you are smart enough to know cutting off the rest of the sentence changed the meaning entirely and did so dishonestly, or to say that you didn't realize you were making a false statement about what I said because you are not smart enough to understand sentence structure?
We are all criminals if they want to press us on every letter of the law. Especially 18 U.S. Code 1001.
Since I don't work for the federal government and don't cheat on my taxes, 18 U.S. Code 1001 has no applicability to me.
Again everyone in Biden’s circle could be thrown in jail on something if the Republicans were as stupid and vindictive as the Democrats.
If the Democrats were as vindictive as you claim, Gaetz would be on trial right now.
One Brow,
I was hoping for that exact reply. I purposely cut your sentence off to make a point about how the Mueller investigation operated. Yes, completely dishonest. If I had federal power over you that is how I would present you to the Grand Jury. The whole persecution of political opponents was a scam, having nothing to do with the Russians. If you don’t recognize this, you are favor of a police state. If you can recognize a false accusation, you’re half way there.
I’m guessing you’re a W2 employee and being honest on taxes is straight forward. I was the same robot for years. Try being self employed and doing everything you can to be honest in income and expenses and let me know if it’s not possible to make a mistake. I’ve never had a problem with the IRS, when they send me a letter saying some write off was incorrect, I mail them a check in a couple of days. If they send me money from my taxes three years ago, I deposit the check. I have no idea if they are right or not, I send the money and receive the money. If they want to prosecute me for my mistake for a political purpose, that would be the picture of hell.
I’m sorry you don’t understand 18 US 1001. I recommend pleading the fifth if they are prosecuting you for your politics. If the vindictive Dems had anything on Gaetz, he would be walking the plank. They genuinely hate the guy, as do some Republicans. Personally I don’t care for the guy, but since he is hated by so many scoundrels in the Democratic Party, he must have something going for him.
Interesting article here. Leftists are "mean girls".
bmiller,
Thank you for showing that you think men can't compete with women. Personally, I'm not scared of women.
David Duffy,
The Mueller report showed every sign of bending the narrative in favor of Trump, within the limits of Mueller's professional integrity. Mueller was a Republican special prosecutor appointed by a Republican AG. I can recognize a false narrative. Still, if you are so sure of your position, it's only fair of me to ask you for the supporting evidence. What did the Mueller report say that you feel misrepresented the truth, what was the actual truth, and how do you know? Please be specific.
I'm sorry that you are so blinded that you think Trump was persecuted for his politics. The Democrats have three cooperating witnesses on Gaetz, yet he still skates free. He does have teen-age sex partners going for him.
One Brow,
I’m never sure if I’m blinded. Certainly I have many blind spots, and this may be one of them. I seriously doubt you can spot false natives. But, that’s another conversation. I’m also not a Trump fan, although objectively the country was better off than with Biden.
If you want to check back here I’ll retrace the information I was taking in at the time. To summarize, The Mueller investigation was a counter intelligence operation. It was to find out how Russia influenced the 2016 election. It was not a criminal investigation other than if there was espionage or collusion on the part of Trump and his team. I wanted to know what influence Russia had on the election.
How in the hell did it turn into digging into taxes, setting people up for charges of lying to the FBI about the most mundane matters? On a personal matter, I was involved with Air Force intelligence gathering, vicariously at times. When I was in the military it was illegal to be in the military and a homosexual. Because I was involved in intelligence gathering on the Soviet Union along the East German/West German border 1982-84, it did not give me authority to turn in known and admitted homosexuals who I worked with. It did not give me authority to turn in pot smokers. I could have, but my reasons for not seeking their prosecution is another matter.
I have learned a lot about federal regulations to keep my business clean. I have learned a lot about taxes since I do them myself and I’m self-employed. I learned a lot in on building codes in remodeling and expanding my house. I don’t think you have any idea how easily we can be prosecuted for an infraction of the law.
David Duffy,
The FBI runs counter-intelligence programs without need of a special counsel, which Mueller was. Special counsels are appointed to avoid the conflict of interest when investigating a Presidential administration. To my understanding, these investigations often go far afield from their starting point. The Starr investigation was supposed to be about Whitewater, and grew to encompass three or four more things, like the Lewinski matter.
From what I can tell, it takes 3-4 years for a President to have a noticeable effect on the economy. Trump coasted on the work done by Obama, which was derailed by covid19 (which, while I have some complaints about Trump's covid19 positions and policies, was not his fault in any way). Biden is still dealing with the cleanup from covid19, we'll see how his policies have worked or not in 2024 or 2025.
To the extent the president is responsible, the best results, at least from the years I paid attention, seem to be with a Democrat in the White House and Republicans in Congress.
"I’m also not a Trump fan, although objectively the country was better off than with Biden."
I hear this all the time by some people, but I have yet to hear anyone explain how the country is supposedly worse off today than in 2020. If anything, to me it appears to be slightly better since Biden got in. Not dramatically so, but still an improvement.
Bob,
There's no trustworthy data on politics. You like the O's, I'm a Dodgers fan. You like watercolors, I like the oils and acrylics of Mrs. Duffy. I live in the state completely controlled by the corrupt Democrats. De gustibus non est disputandum.
In other words, you have no grounds upon which to assert that things are worse off today than they were in 2020. OK, just so we have that clear.
OK Bob,
Middle income wages and employment continued to rise between 2016 and 2020. Wages were rising more than inflation. Manufacturing jobs increased and energy prices were stable. Crime was at the lowest rate since the 1960’s until the Democrat Party riots. The tax load to pay for all the government waste was decreasing. Polls of Americans during these years said their life was getting better. Polls of Americans nowadays say their life is getting worse.
Putin was contained, the Chinese were being challenged, Afghanistan had some small pathetic hope. The doofus in charge threw that all way. Tell me how the doofus in charge has made life better for Americans and the world?
I’m interested Bob give me your best case for Biden.
I'm curious Bob,
In the progressive Democratic Party city of Baltimore, it's been reported, correct me if I'm wrong, 23 schools do not have a single student who is at grade level in math and reading. I looked it up and they have a 1.6 billion dollar budget. You live in the city can you correct me if I'm wrong on the facts. Or perhaps give me some context?
David Duffy,
Middle income wages and employment continued to rise between 2016 and 2020.
They continue to rise today.
Wages were rising more than inflation. Manufacturing jobs increased and energy prices were stable.
Until the Ukranian invasion, this was also true under Biden.
Crime was at the lowest rate since the 1960’s ...
Property crime has continued to drop. Violent crime started to go up in 2020, under Trump
...until the Democrat Party riots.
The adjective is "Democratic". There were riots by both sides of the political spectrum starting in 2020/
The tax load to pay for all the government waste was decreasing.
Meanwhile, the deficit and debt were rocketing up.
Polls of Americans during these years said their life was getting better.
Not during 2020.
Polls of Americans nowadays say their life is getting worse.
2020 was a big change.
Putin was contained,
*Chortle*
the Chinese were being challenged,
Still are being challenged.
Afghanistan had some small pathetic hope.
Until Trump drew up a withdrawal agreement, and left the execution to Biden.
Tell me how the doofus in charge has made life better for Americans and the world?
https://joebiden.com/accomplishments/#
Biden makes his own case.
Dave,
Always remember. Leftists strive for mediocrity.
So excellence is frowned upon.
OneBrow,
Always remember. Rightwingers are defined almost solely by seething hatred of half of the fellow Americans, whipped up by rightwing Hate Media. Case in point: bmiller's ridiculous and false accusation about "excellence," and David Duffy's grade-school level usage of "Democrat Party" instead of the adjective.
I'm not sure there has been any group in history as efficient as the wealthy elite in protecting their entrenched position by causing infighting among everyone else:
"They got you fighting a culture war, to keep you from fighting a class war."
"Careful, mate. That foreigner wants your cookie."
Martin's reply is an excellent...oops....mediocre example.
One Brow,
“They continue to rise today.”
Below the rate of inflation.
“Until the Ukranian invasion, this was also true under Biden”
I have no idea what this means. Please tell why the U.S. became energy independent under Trump and then lost this to the war in Ukraine?
“Property crime has continued to drop. Violent crime started to go up in 2020, under Trump”
Property crime dropped because people were more staple in their income and neighborhoods when wages were increasing above inflation. Violent crimes started under the Democratic/G.F. riots. Violence continues under the resentment inflamed by the Dems.
“The adjective is ‘Democratic’.”
Thanks, there’s no end to the corrections on my grammar and spelling. It’s one of my great weakness’s.
“Meanwhile, the deficit and debt were rocketing up.”
This is where I despise our government. If we want to buy all this bullshit, tell the people to pay for it and be honest what it will cost. Especially to the middleclass who receive little from government programs yet sends hard-earned money to go to those who receive the most from government taxes.
“Not during 2020.”
The idiotic response the flu
“*Chortle*”
*Gollum, Gollum* I think is a closer response.
Putin invaded Crimea under Obama. He invaded Ukraine under Dufus. Please tell what he did under Trump, except (please humor me) steal the 2016 election.
The rest is idiotic.
Keep up the good fight Miller.
David Duffy,
Inflation is falling, no more thanks to Biden than its rise.
Please tell why the U.S. became energy independent under Trump and then lost this to the war in Ukraine?
I don't need to explain what is not true.
Property crime has continued to drop through Biden's Presidency, and violent crime increased more in Republican strongholds than in Democratic.
Biden is proposing a budget that, he claims, will reduce the deficit. We'll see.
Covid19 is about 10 times deadlier than the flu. I'll gladly admit that, through almost no fault of Trump's own, it derailed the last year of his administration.
Putin was hoping Trump would withdraw from NATO in his second term, or at least undermine it more. I agree Putin would not want to jeopardize that. I don't think giving Russia exactly what it wants is sound foreign policy.
Dave,
Your said your wife was Swedish. Did she ever hear of the Laws of Jante?
Miller,
Trying to be an honest husband, I opened my comments page to her on my iPad and asked her to read. She didn’t know about the the Laws of Janet. Walking away she said she would google it. Mrs Duffy went back to reading a Jane Austin novel.
HA!
Your wife is a wise woman.
Regarding the OP.
Does it count as evidence when someone testifies before the legislature and provides documents?
How interesting. They took the video down.
Look here fast or it will be gone too:
https://tennesseestar.com/2023/02/25/explosive-testimony-at-senate-elections-and-house-municipal-oversight-elections-joint-meeting-accuses-hobbs-fontes-runbeck-and-judges-of-racketeering/
LOL:
They were offered in a 40-minute presentation by Jacqueline Breger, an insurance agent from Scottsdale, who attributed them to a report written by John Thaler, who she said was an attorney with a background in fraud investigations.
Thaler alleged, without reliable evidence, that two women working on behalf of the Sinaloa cartel used fraudulent mortgage documents to launder money to a wide range of officials, both Republicans and Democrats. Online sleuths discovered the women Thaler accused of facilitating the fraud were his ex-wife and her mother.
Thaler has a history of filing lawsuits accusing them of carrying out wide-ranging conspiracies. A federal judge last year dismissed one of his lawsuits, calling it "a delusional and fantastical narrative."
Arizona Republicans disavow wide-ranging bribery allegation
Washington Post. Jeff Bezo's propaganda outlet doing damage control.
But for who? The cartel? Democrats and Republicans were both named.
Cartel activity in Phoenix.
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