Tuesday, October 27, 2020

Abortometrics, or what is the real pro-life goal?

 Is getting abortions as close to zero as possible the pro-life goal, or is it something else?


From the point of what I would call abortometrics, the idea of trying to figure out what policies will produce the most nonabortions, it is not clear to me that the Republicans are any better than the Democrats. Democrats supported the idea that employers don't have the right to fire employees for getting pregnant, allowed for unpaid medical leave in the Family and Medical Leave Act, and try to make sure that everyone, including pregnant women, get health care. They support paid medical leave, and that would give women a reason not to get an abortion. All Republicans try to do to produce nonabortions is to prevent access by reversing Roe and allowing states to ban abortion. In other words, they think the only way to get rid of abortion if to use force to prevent women from having access to abortion. But because we are a nation governed by the people, this would only be possible in a few red states. In other words, the attack the supply side of abortion. On the other hand, they seem contemptuous of any policies that would decrease the number of abortions by decreasing the need for them. Many pro-choice people in the Democratic party strongly dislike abortion (Biden certainly, though I am not so sure about Harris). Historically, abortion rates don't go down any faster under Republicans than under Democrats. The old slogan for Democrats was safe, legal, and rare, although there has been some, to my mind disturbing backing away from this perspective. But, in practical terms, a safe legal and rare strategy might in fact produce fewer abortions that a strict pro-life position, given the impracticality of getting anything close to an across-the-board prohibition of abortion. So, if the goal is to get the abortometrics as close to zero as possible, (a goal shared by pro-lifers and anti-abortion pro-choicers and no, that's NOT an oxymoron.) Now, maybe pro-lifers think that the abortometric approach is the wrong way to approach abortion. I suppose they think that pro-life laws and the supply strategy are more deontologically adequate even if they are infeasible and less effective abortometrically than the demand strategy. But if the goal is to get as close to zero on abortions as is feasible, then it is less that clear which party is really more pro-life.

87 comments:

bmiller said...

Thou shalt not kill means we shouldn't kill innocent human beings has always been the Judeo-Christian understanding.

But wait! What if we have "policies" that allow murder that will actually reduce the overall murder rate! How should a Christian reply?

Romans 3:8 Then "Why not say--as some slanderously claim that we say--"Let us do evil that good may result"? Their condemnation is just!

I figure condemnation is just to 'Christians' who are consequentialists.

bmiller said...

Oh, BTW.

It's hilarious to see any people twist and turn to find a way to claim that Democrats will reduce abortions. LOOOOOOL!!!

Martin Cooke said...

Very nice post, Victor.

bmiller should not, I think, find the slaughter of innocents to be a laughing matter.

Regarding bmiller's substantive criticism, is it evil to have laws that allow some evil acts? If not, then his Bible quote is inappropriate. But if it is, then surely it follows that there are very few politicians that Christians should vote for.

Kevin said...

Pro-life people are often also against providing birth control and expanding safety nets that help provide financial stability, which is why I do not donate to pro-life groups.

On the other hand, Democrats and the left don't even pretend to find killing the unborn distasteful anymore.

bmiller said...

Martin Cooke,

is it evil to have laws that allow some evil acts?

Of course that is not the question. The question is 'is it evil to allow murder?'
Lumping any and all evil acts into the same basket is a poor practice.

And please, I'm laughing at poor arguments.

bmiller said...

Pro-life people are often also against providing birth control and expanding safety nets that help provide financial stability, which is why I do not donate to pro-life groups.

Do most evangelicals oppose birth control? I suspect they oppose government safety nets but I wouldn't have guessed they opposed birth control too.

I don't think most Catholics oppose safety nets, but even if they did, the Catholic Church has extensive charities to help the poor. It is true that the Church opposes artificial birth control....as did all Christian Churches prior to 1930 Lambeth Conference when the Anglican Church rejected the historic Christian moral position.
.

Kevin said...

Do most evangelicals oppose birth control?

I don't have any numbers, but I do know that, for example, National Right to Life basically has a position of "no comment" on birth control. To me that would be like the NRA having no opinion on banning ammunition.

bmiller said...

To me that would be like the NRA having no opinion on banning ammunition.

Ha! Good one.

I suspect that they have no official position so as to keep both Catholics and Evangelicals from fighting about it.

SteveK said...

Birth control that prevents fertilization is fine with me. Fighting with your spouse also works pretty well.

Kevin said...

Fighting with your spouse also works pretty well.

Can confirm.

bmiller said...

Seems we have reached unanimous agreement.

A truly rare accomplishment!

Starhopper said...

"Laws and regulations [are] insufficient in the long run to curb bad conduct, even when effective means of enforcement are present. If the laws are to bring about significant, long-lasting effects, the majority of the members of society must be adequately motivated to accept them, and personally transformed to respond."
(Pope Francis, Laudato Si’, Paragraph 211)

That's what I've been saying on this site for seemingly forever now. Bmiller condemns me to eternal hellfire for saying so, but wonder of wonders, the Pope apparently agrees with me.

bmiller said...

Bmiller condemns me to eternal hellfire for saying so, but wonder of wonders, the Pope apparently agrees with me.

Really? The Pope says there shouldn't be any laws against abortion?

bmiller said...

Starhopper,

Pope Francis says abortion is never OK and equates it to "hiring a hitman"

Following your reasoning he must also be against outlawing assassinations.

BTW, it's not me who can condemn anyone. People condemn themselves.

Starhopper said...

Pope Francis does not say there should be no laws against abortion, but he does say (or at least imply) that such laws would do no good, absent a change of heart on the part of the mass of humanity.

My point has always been that if you are truly interested in reducing the number of abortions, then the best way to accomplish that goal is education and persuasion - not legislation.

I would love to see an end to abortion altogether, and am convinced that the ONLY way to even approach such a goal is to raise a generation that has no desire to have one. What the pro-life movement has been doing for decades now has been mostly counterproductive.

bmiller said...

Starhopper,

Pope Francis does not say there should be no laws against abortion, but he does say (or at least imply) that such laws would do no good, absent a change of heart on the part of the mass of humanity.

I really do feel sorry for you and I pray for you.

You want to claim to be a Catholic, but you also want to belong to the party of abortion.

Do you also want to belong to the party of legalizing assassinations?

Starhopper said...

Your biggest problem is that you ostensibly use the English Language to communicate ideas, but you unfortunately make no sense in your attempts to do so.

There is no such thing as a "party of abortion" in this country. Nor is there anything remotely resembling a "pro-life" party.

Right now (excluding irrelevant third parties) there are only two parties in America:

The sycophantic Party of total, unquestioning obedience to the Dear Leader (Trump), and
The Party that still remembers and honors our 250 year history of democracy and the Ideals of America.

"Abortion" does not even figure into this equation.

bmiller said...

I'm sorry that you've chosen the party of abortion over the Catholic Church.

Please reconsider.

Kevin said...

The Party that still remembers and honors our 250 year history of democracy and the Ideals of America.

Libertarians?

bmiller said...

Yeah, I'm wondering that too?

It can't possibly be the party that that says the Constitution dooms us to the tyranny of dead people.

Starhopper said...

"It can't possibly be the party that that says the Constitution dooms us to the tyranny of dead people."

The Democratic Party does not say that - I say that!

bmiller said...

Same same.

Starhopper said...

Wow... I get to speak for an entire party.

"The power! The absolute power!"

bmiller said...

“An imbecile habit has arisen in modern controversy of saying that such and such a creed can be held in one age but cannot be held in another. Some dogma, we are told, was credible in the twelfth century, but is not credible in the twentieth. You might as well say that a certain philosophy can be believed on Mondays, but cannot be believed on Tuesdays. You might as well say of a view of the cosmos that it was suitable to half-past three, but not suitable to half-past four. What a man can believe depends upon his philosophy, not upon the clock or the century.”
– G.K. Chesterton

Kevin said...

The power! The absolute power

You ARE the Senate!

bmiller said...

He's Biden himself.

Kevin said...

Biden isn't the Senate. He's simply running for it.

bmiller said...

Ha! But only sometimes when he's in the 1980's.

But other days he claims "I am the Democratic Party!"

bmiller said...

But don't get tricked!

bmiller said...

What do we want? Trunalimunumaprzure! When do we want it? NOW!

bmiller said...

Happy Halloween

bmiller said...

Remember to vote Trump tomorrow even if you are in Maryland. Every vote counts (depending on who is counting :-)

Starhopper said...

Bmiller is correct in that it's important for everyone to vote, even if you vote for the wrong person. We need to know just how many insane people live amongst us.

One Brow said...

bmiller,

Well, Democrats certainly want every vote to count. Republicans are happy to have drive-thru votes not count as long as they are in a Democratically-inclined city.

bmiller said...

We need to know just how many insane people live amongst us.

Don't worry. We've already counted you ;-)

Kevin said...

"Anyone who doesn't vote the way I do is insane because I'm the self-appointed standard bearer."

Modern politics.

Starhopper said...

If a person does not realize that voting for Trump is nuts, that all by itself is proof that he is insane, incapable of distinguishing between reality and lunacy.

bmiller said...

TDS

Starhopper said...

Trump Derangement Syndrome (TDS) = Still supporting Trump after everything that's happened in the last four years.

bmiller said...

No that's Trump Delight Syndrome.

Contentment that a politician actually keeps his promises despite the swamp fighting him tooth and nail and the MSM censoring him.

Starhopper said...

I guess it helps to have drunk of the Kool Aid.

bmiller said...

And it's not Trump supporters that business owners are worried about as they board up their windows in anticipation of deranged supporters going wild.

bmiller said...

Will you be out there with your Molotov cocktails?

Starhopper said...

How do you know? Have you asked them?

In any case, the only people I know who are swaggering around brandishing automatic weaponry and forcing busses off the highway (or driving cars through crowds of demonstrators) are MAGA Hatters.

Starhopper said...

"Will you be out there?"

Sadly, no. I haven't left my basement since March, other than to go to the doctor or pick up a prescription.

It's been frustrating to not take part in the Black Lives Matter events, or even to attend the local Veterans for Peace meetings. But I'd much rather stay alive and pray for their success.

bmiller said...

Right. Enjoy your delusions.

BTW. Serious question.
Do you know who Tony Bobulinski is and have you seen his interview?

bmiller said...

Sorry. You posted before my last reply

Starhopper said...

I've heard of him. This entire Biden non-scandal is a giant nothing burger. And even if it were true (which it is not), comparing it to the very real multiple Trump scandals would be like comparing yelling at a driver who cut you off to World War Two.

bmiller said...

Good at least you heard of him.

Thanks for confirming that you are only willing to believe corruption charges are possible if they are leveled against political opponents.

Starhopper said...

Oh, level them all you want. But please, gimme something to work with! Not this junk.

bmiller said...

Got no idea what you're going on about. Probably because your sources are blacking out the news.

Starhopper said...

Well. If you want the Full Monty on Democratic scandals in the White House, just check out THIS.

The horror... the horror...

bmiller said...

You missed the money laundering scandal.

The Biden family could actually be innocent, but there is the evidence of Hunter's laptop and an eye witness testifying to the FBI fact that Joe was aware and was beneficiary of these deals.

What's interesting is that if you mention the laptop on Twitter or Facebook, your account gets cancelled and the MSM is in full blackout mode.

bmiller said...

No wonder you don't know of any scandals.

Kevin said...

Starhoppet, you say voting for Trump is insane.

How should a conservative, who is naturally opposed to the Democratic Party and its policies, vote in order to keep Biden out of office?

Kevin said...

Phone autocorrected to "Starhoppet", which turned out to be a really cute name.

bmiller said...

It is cute.

bmiller said...

Wasn't that the name of one of the grouchy old Muppets in the balcony?

Starhopper said...

"who is naturally opposed to the Democratic Party and its policies"

Now why on Earth would anyone be opposed to protecting the environment, defending liberty and freedom around the globe, avoiding war and violence wherever possible, expanding access to health care for all Americans, welcoming the stranger (immigration), defending the widow and the orphan (expanding the social safety net), making sure that it's easier to vote instead of harder, ending police violence against African Americans, and allowing science to guide our response to the pandemic rather than wishful thinking?

bmiller said...

Sounds like another vote for Trump.

BTW: Trump 2024!

Kevin said...

I used to enjoy the tit for tat exchange when an ideologue would describe their own side in the most positive manner possible or the other side in the most negative manner possible. It's so easy to flip around.

Then I learned that ideologues are not impressed by such things, otherwise they wouldn't be ideologues. And like Stardusty demonstrated on the Feser blog, the ideologue will frame disinterest in wasting one's time on a vain endeavor, as an inability to do so.

The ideologue will not acknowledge that it is possible to disagree with him without being immoral or ignorant or stupid. The choice will be framed as, say, voting for the best interests of the country or being a bigot. Dialogue with such people is not possible.

Looks like my next lesson is to learn not to even make the attempt.

Starhopper said...

Kevin,

Just make sure you never confuse Stardusty with Starhopper. We are polar opposites on almost everything.

One Brow said...

bmiller said...
TDS

Trump Derision Syndrome or Trump Disgust Syndrome?

One Brow said...

bmiller,
And it's not Trump supporters that business owners are worried about as they board up their windows in anticipation of deranged supporters going wild.

Among the people committing vandalism in these protests that have an identifiable affiliation, more than twice as many are right-wingers.

One Brow said...

Kevin,

How should a conservative, who is naturally opposed to the Democratic Party and its policies, vote in order to keep Biden out of office?

I suppose it is a question of priorities. Are the those Democratic priorities worse than the attacks by Trump on limited Presidential power? Do you care more about judges, or about accurate information on covid19 being disseminated and effective responses to it being enacted?

One Brow said...

Kevin,
I used to enjoy the tit for tat exchange when an ideologue would describe their own side in the most positive manner possible or the other side in the most negative manner possible. It's so easy to flip around.

I hope you keep trying. People with the perception to flip the script make for the best conversations.

Victor Reppert said...

I find I have little patience for the idea of arguing against Biden by attributing to him positions he has explicitly repudiated, on the ostensible grounds that if he is elected "The Left," led by Kamala, will be in REALLY in charge. There is no good reason outside of pure conspiracy theorizing to believe this, and it indicates prejudice against people of advanced age to assume this sort of thing without good evidence. Oh, yeah, there's a Biden blooper reel. There's one for Trump, too, who is only three years younger than Biden. Democratic moderates do exist, they won the day in the 2020 primaries despite the presence of Sanders and Warren in those primaries. Democratic moderates were crucial to their ability to win House seats in 2018, and never-Trump Republicans are important to Biden's success should he defeat Trump. Biden's views on abortion is that he accepts Catholic teaching on life but believes we can't impose it on a democratic society that does not, on the whole, accept that teaching, as ours certainly does not. This is not Catholic Poland. You can, if you want, question the coherence of that position, but to treat Biden as an abortion enthusiast would be to misrepresent his position. Biden OPPOSES defunding the police, he OPPOSES raising taxes on anyone making over $400,000 per year, etc.

The idea that he is too old or senile to be a functioning President is a bunch of ageist prejudice. Of course he COULD die or become disabled, and Kamala would have to take over in that event. That of course would be true of Trump, who could have died of COVID and went to the hospital in 2019 for an ailment he won't tell anyone about. He has campaigned quite a lot, and he has not been hunkered down in a basement, but the limitations of his activities can be explained easily in terms of his unwillingness to expose himself and others to COVID unnecessarily.

And on the other hand, we have a President who is so pro-life he commits negligent homicide many times over every time he holds a rally. I'm not impressed with a "pro-life" position that is clearly a deal made with pro-lifers, not rooted in any way in respect for the significance and dignity of very person no matter who they are. It is one thing to oppose abortion, it is something else entirely to be so obsessed with it that every other ethical consideration can be, and is, set aside. But I guess he thinks his supporters are blobs of tissue, since at all his rallies he subjects them to the likelihood of death by COVID-19. But, I guess he respects their right to choose to put themselves and their fellow citizens at risk.

It makes no sense to be a one-issue pro-lifer. Even assuming a blind spot on Biden's part where fetuses are concerned, his ethical viewpoint is far more pro-life on the whole than that of his broadly anti-life opponent.

bmiller said...

Victor,

Biden's views on abortion is that he accepts Catholic teaching on life but believes we can't impose it on a democratic society that does not, on the whole, accept that teaching, as ours certainly does not.

Biden does not accept Catholic teaching on abortion. He is doing everything within his power to keep it legal and have the government pay for it. He wouldn't be a Democratic candidate if he did accept Catholic teaching. And that's not the only corruption in his life.

It's really, really silly to claim Trump is committing negligent homicide by holding political rallies. TDS.

It makes no sense to be a one-issue pro-lifer.
There would be twice as many black people alive in America today if abortion was not pushed on them. So much for concern about everyone.

Biden has apparently used his position to enrich his family and put himself into a position of being blackmailed by foreign governments. I think that eliminates him from claiming to be the "ethical" candidate.

Kevin said...

Do you care more about judges, or about accurate information on covid19 being disseminated and effective responses to it being enacted?

Not a fair comparison. A better set of questions would be, do I want the country's judicial system tilted to the left or not? The answer is no, of course.

Even if I accept the premise that Democrats have been consistently pro-science on COVID (they haven't), what is the "best" balance between economic devastation, particularly of those already low-income, and the at most one percent of people at risk of dying from the virus? In a perfect world the answer would be obvious, but it isn't. Do I think Democrats would have a better balance? I don't.

bmiller said...

Let me point out the elephant in the room.

The MSM and Big Tech has dropped all pretense of fair reporting and is now actually censoring dissenting views.

Does that make the leftist posting here happy?

One Brow said...

Kevin,
Not a fair comparison. A better set of questions would be, do I want the country's judicial system tilted to the left or not? The answer is no, of course.

Is that, "as opposed to tilted to the right, which I support", or "as opposed to one comprised on moderate judges not chosen for ideological bias"? Because right now, voting for Republicans is voting for the former.

Even if I accept the premise that Democrats have been consistently pro-science on COVID (they haven't), what is the "best" balance between economic devastation, particularly of those already low-income, and the at most one percent of people at risk of dying from the virus? In a perfect world the answer would be obvious, but it isn't. Do I think Democrats would have a better balance? I don't.

We have a profession that studies, among other things, the effects of epidemics on populations, including the economic and environmental effects. We call them "epidemiologists". There's a reason the BLS has them in a separate category from other types of doctors.

However, I do agree that, overall, the Democratic party is only slightly more scientifically minded than the Republican party, and they certainly have made a decent number of errors here.

One Brow said...

bmiller,
The MSM and Big Tech has dropped all pretense of fair reporting and is now actually censoring dissenting views.

Does that make the leftist posting here happy?


Fictional takes portrayed as reality rarely makes me happy.

The main-stream media represents a wide variety of views in it's reporting, and any refusal to platform by the big tech companies is directed at false content, not a political party. Why are you in favor of people being able to spread lies?

Starhopper said...

" and the at most one percent of people at risk of dying from the virus"

Um... You do realize that one percent of the US population is 3,267,000 people? Are you honestly OK with killing off 3 and 1/4 million people for the sake of the economy?

I hope you do not consider yourself to be "pro-life"!

Starhopper said...

Wow! I actually agree with Trump on something. He says that we should immediately stop counting any further ballots that have not been already counted. Well, since Biden is currently ahead in states that total 272 electoral votes, I say let's stop the counting now!

Kevin said...

I hope you do not consider yourself to be "pro-life"!

I hope people who think as binarily as you never achieve power!

Worst-case scenarios are rarely realized. I said "at most" one percent were "at risk" of dying, which means far less than that would actually die.

Meanwhile millions upon millions of parents would be unable to provide for their children, or save for retirement, or pay bills, or donate to charities, or any of the other countless issues that arise from people who are not at any real risk of dying being forcibly prevented from working by the government. Not to mention the inevitable collapse of the economy that would arise from prolonged shutdown, which would be staggering in its severity.

If you don't think a responsible leader has to strike a balance there, you're psychotic enough to think Democrats are an honorable party filled with honorable people.

One Brow said...

Kevin,

Fear is a powerful motivator. Regardless of the limitations the government imposes or suggests, it is fear that has kept and will keep people from going out.

Starhopper said...

Well. The election is now (effectively) over, and the result was decidedly murky. Biden got more votes than any other presidential candidate in history, while Trump increased his own 2016 total by about 5 million votes. So, although (Praise be unto God the Almighty!) Biden is the apparent winner, Trump was not decisively repudiated.

And that, paradoxically, is probably a Good Thing. It tells America that we cannot afford to let our guard down. The dark underbelly of our society is still there, ready and eager (like the Shadow in The Lord of the Rings) to "take another shape and grow again". The racism, xenophobia, bigotry, ignorance, hatred, and sheer unadulterated evil that fueled the Trump phenomenon have not been destroyed, but simply dealt a setback. For they were never an external foe, but were frighteningly homegrown. As Pogo said, "We have met the enemy, and he is us!"

Yes, we must rejoice. We deserve to. Our nation has been spared a descent into dark totalitarianism. A wannabe Mussolini has been knocked off his pedestal. Truth has (for now) triumphed over lies, and hope over fear. All that is true, and worthy of celebration.

But like the US after the Battle of Midway, we may have dodged a bullet, but there remains a long and bitter struggle ahead before we can (if ever, this side of the Second Coming) sail triumphantly into Tokyo Bay.

But like the British soldier who, when asked why, after so much death and destruction, he was celebrating the Armistice that ended the First World War, said "It shows that right makes might!"

And yes, this election was yet another confirmation of that. Halleluiah! All glory be unto God, from Whom all good things come!

Kevin said...

Conservatives are not a dark underbelly just because they don't vote for whom you think they should. By all appearances you are much like Stardusty, in that you are a leftwing ideologue who thinks conservatives are morally flawed for not being leftwing. It's not so.

But the ideologue will never admit it. Stardusty sure won't. Are you different?

Starhopper said...

Kevin,

My made no statement about conservatives, but about Trumpists. Trump is practically the opposite of a conservative. I know many, many conservatives who are solidly ethical and moral.

As for my own political opinions, I am most definitely NOT a "leftist". On economic issues, I am pretty much a 20th Century liberal, and on social issues, I am squarely in the conservative camp. As far as religion goes, I am a somewhat traditionalist Catholic. I attend Mass regularly, pray the Divine Office mornings and evenings (in Latin), the Divine Mercy chaplet at 3 PM, and the Rosary at bedtime.

Starhopper said...

Yikes! Typos are my bane. That first sentence should have read "I made no statement about conservatives, but about Trumpists."

Sorry for any confusion.

StardustyPsyche said...

Starhopper"
"The election is now (effectively) over, and the result was decidedly murky."
Ridiculous

Biden won, crystal clear, not even slightly murky.

Biden flipped 5 states, Trump flipped 0.

Biden overcame the power of the incumbency.

Biden overcame the bias of the electoral college.

Biden is headed North of 5 million more votes than Trump.

This is a very strong repudiation of Trump who had all the advantages of the electoral college bias and the power of the incumbency but lost badly in spite of all his advantages.

Not even slightly murky.

StardustyPsyche said...

Kevin,
"you are a leftwing ideologue who thinks conservatives are morally flawed for not being leftwing."
Wowww, your mind reading skills are super impressive, you being able to tell me what I think and all.

Oh, wait, nope, really, to the extent I think a conservative is morally flawed it is because of flawed morals exhibited by that conservative.

Starhopper said...

Stardusty,

I called the election results murky, because I was referring to the entire election, not just the presidential. The Republicans appear to have retained command of the Senate, and the Democrats lost several seats in the House. Yes, Biden decisively won the presidency, but the election was not just for that office.

It's like when they say the market was "mixed" on a day when the DOW goes up and the NASDAQ goes down.

Kevin said...

Stardusty,

You are correct, and so my apologies. I got my adjectives and sources mixed up. You did not say conservatives were immoral, you said they were highly irrational. So my memory was indeed flawed.

Starhopper said...

Is that last comment of yours addressed to Stardusty, or to me?

If to me, then I ask again? Where did I refer to conservatives? I didn't say they were anything, good or bad.

If not to me, then I'll just "stand back and stand by."

One Brow said...

I agree that the election was mixed. It looks like 50 Republican seats, 48 that caucus with Democrats, and two runoffs in Georgia. A reduction for Republicans, but not a repudiation.

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