It seems to me that there are different ways of supporting Trump. One kind of supporter is the real MAGA supporter who really thinks that talking about grabbing the you-know-what was just locker room talk, who thinks that all the self-absorbed twitter posts have a deep and valuable purpose, who think that children in cages was just law and order, who think that his relationship with the Russians wasn't just not a conspiracy, it was wrong to even start counterintelligence investigations into it, who thinks that not only wasn't the call to Zelensky not sufficient grounds for removal from the Presidency, it was a perfect call, who think that Trump's leadership with respect to COVID-19 is really good, (and the virus is all China's fault), who think that when he tweeted about shooting looters he was just affirming our Second Amendment rights. This is the Orange Man Great perspective.
I think this viewpoint is delusional, in much the sense that Dawkins wrongly thinks that belief in God is delusional.
But other people think that even though Trump isn't the Best of All Possible Leaders, he is preferable to anything the Democrats have to offer. This might be due to his anti-abortion activity, or because of his court appointments, or because of his tax cuts, his deregulation policies, etc., he is preferable to the alternative. In addition, he, unlike McCain and Romney, actually won his election, being better at appealing at the emotional level to people than his Republican predecessors. Still, he has plenty of failings, but they will support him and vote for him anyway, holding their nose with respect to some things.
The prevailing defense against the impeachment case was that, yeah, Trump did something wrong in his dealing with the Ukrainians, but it wasn't sufficient for the drastic step of removing the President from office. But the Trump campaign is doing its best to try to get everyone to forget that.
But those in the second category have to be concerned that Trump will continue to make foolish comments and actions that will throw away the November election, if it has not been thrown away already. Showing as much compassion for COVID victims as George W. Bush would have shown might have been sufficient to given him an edge over Biden, but that is not the leader that we have. Making foolish comments about opening up a cold case against a television commentator for murder is another unforced error. The lead the Biden has over Trump in the polls, both nationally and in the battleground states, is the result of Trump's mistakes. He was taken of Twitter by his campaign in the waning days of the 2016 campaign (the most brilliant move in the history of Presidential campaigns). The only hope he has of re-election is if the campaign makes the same decision for him NOW. But there is no way they can insist on that at this point, now that he is a sitting President.
174 comments:
Well then it's settled. No need for leftists to worry since it's in the bag.
So I wonder why I see such utter palpable panic from the left.
"utter palpable panic"
The fear on the part of 2/3rds of Americans is that Trump will somehow manage a second electoral college victory, despite once again being badly beaten in the popular vote. If that happens, and I mean no hyperbole, it will be the end of the United States. At 68 years old, I would surely live to see its demise.
I think you're wrong. Most Americans don't fear is the legitimate American election system. Just losers.
"Most Americans don't fear is the legitimate American election system. Just losers."
The majority of American voters were the losers, so yes, most Americans, that is the majority of American voters, don't want the present system to do what it has done twice in recent history, install a minority president.
As for "legitimate", if one defines the law as always and intrinsically legitimate then by definition our present election law is legitimate as has been every law that every jurisdiction in the United States that has ever had in force.
That view of "legitimate" leads to some problems, not the least of which is that laws can contradict each other, laws can be over turned, laws can be repealed.
In one view if a law eventually is struck down then it was never a legitimate law.
Is it "legitimate" for voters in New York, Texas, California, and Florida to have a small fraction of the presidential voting power per vote as voters in Alaska, North Dakota, Wyoming, and South Dakota?
Is it "legitimate" to degrade and diminish the presidential voting power of an individual voter by virtue of the state the or she votes in?
Loser.
Law and Order!
GOD DAMN the Trump administration!
(Literally... To hell with it!)
Someone in precarious health and prevented from reconciliation should not start his day by violating 2 of the 10 commandments.
Oh, I did not take His name "in vain". I meant it in all seriousness. This administration is the very spawn of satan, and demonstrates that it is so every day.
Oh, my fellow Christians! How have allowed yourself to have been so bewitched that you forget the very foundations of your faith? Your ancestors in the faith were willing to die rather than worship the Roman emperors, who fancied themselves to be divine. Yet you yourselves trample the very Cross in your eagerness to offer sacrifice to the (fake) golden idol who is the very antithesis of every last teaching and action of the Lord Jesus.
That is not incense that wafts around his infernal throne, but tear gas and chemical agents. How appropriate that his praetorian guard is styled the S.S.!
The man you have traded the Lord God Himself for is known to you (so you have no excuse) as a habitual blasphemer, a defiler of all that is holy, a man with neither respect for nor even understanding of the Truth, a serial adulterer and sexual predator, a man utterly lacking in empathy or compassion, who thinks first and only of himself, who insults, mocks, and denigrates war heroes, the families of the fallen, the disabled, women, minorities, refugees, and the poor, a man who has never opened the Scriptures, let alone ever read them (and if he did, he would not comprehend them).
Yes, damn this administration to hell. But fear for your own souls as well. Remember what Our Lord had to say to the hypocrites of His own time ("You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?"), and don't forget that He was also speaking to us (as He does to all times and places with every word He speaks.)
Flee from the wrath to come, before it is too late!
"For I am a jealous God" says the LORD.
"Judgment is mine" says the LORD. "I will repay."
Sorry. I don't know the Cathar 10 commandments.
Also, you should try to get some exercise. Maybe walk around the hood.
Use it or lose it ya know.
It seems like any participation in politics consigns the faithful Christian to eternal condemnation (by man at least if not by God).
"Haven't you read Dante's Inferno?"
Heck, you just have to read The Bible. 99 percent of the prophets' condemnations are against various national entities and/or kings.
And off the top of my head, I can't think of Jesus condemning anyone not in power.
"And who is a faithful Christian?"
I'll bite. I wish I could summarize "faithful Christianity" in a bumper sticker, but it doesn't seem possible.
A faithful Christian:
- believes that Jesus is the incarnate Son of God, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity
- acknowledges that he is a sinner, and repents of being one
- makes an attempt to not sin further, and does not give up when he fails (as he most certainly will)
- asks for forgiveness and mercy continually
- prays, if not regularly, then at least frequently
- lives in such a way that non-Christians can see the image of Christ in his words and actions.
There may be other descriptors, but the above are non-negotiable.
Neither can I.
Pretty sure damning people to hell is not giving a good Christian witness to atheists. So it's not surprising atheists get the wrong idea about Christians.
Oooooh... touchy, aren't we? Next thing you know, you'll be (falsely) accusing me of calling you an anti-semite.
It's as if Christ himself is talking to me.
Hal,
Thanks for your atheistic opinion of what you think are good and poor Christian witnesses. Probably explains why you stopped being a Christian.
"Probably explains why you stopped being a Christian."
I'm fairly certain that the vocal support for Trump by way too many evangelical Christians has been the cause for many thousands of people abandoning Christianity, and for millions more getting a negative impression of it.
Since Trump is a recent phenomenon and since the decline of Christianity in the West long predated Trump, I doubt you're right.
It's more likely that the "social gospel" churches became indistinguishable from atheist/secular institutions. So why go to church when you can just read the "gospel" from the NYT. It seems to me that Evangelicals are the only Protestants of any size that still believe that only Jesus Christ can save us.
Hal
"Really good segment on there about how much support for the Black Lives Matter movement has grown since the murder of George Floyd."
So much wrong with that sentence...
Black Live Matter movement is a good thing, the organization Black Lives Matter is led by a set of lesbians who state openly that their agenda is to eliminate the last vestiges of the heterosexual two parent family from black culture and replace it with a dystopian communial child rearing LGBT community in which black men are actively excluded. BLM, the organization, is an anti male, sexist, racist, anti law enforcement, anti family, LGBT, dishonest, fraudulent, criminal, radical hate group.
If you do not believe me just go to their web site, read what they declare they stand for, look at all the pictures carefully, but be sure to first remove any rose colored glasses you might possibly be wearing.
Here are some facts about George Floyd.
He was a violent criminal who had been locked up with some 6 separate sentences including home invasion robbery that involved using a gun to threaten the life of a black woman.
Black lives did not matter much to George Floyd.
George Floyd was a sick man, and an intoxicated opiod abuser.
He had at the time of his arrest
Covid-19.
Recent methamphetamine use.
Fentanyl intoxication.
Severe multifocal arteriosclerosis heart disease.
Hypertensive heart disease.
George Floyd lied to the officers about being claustrophobic, since he was just in his own car! Guess he was only claustrophobic about cop cars, right? Cops don't believe stupid whoppers like that, so they pushed him into the car to do their duty to get this DUI criminal off the streets, again.
Yes, they knew he was a criminal because the cops witnessed his criminal DUI, his criminal lying to the police, and his criminal violent resisting before they put him in the car.
Then he violently resisted some more in the car, so they took him out and pinned him. Of course they pinned him, he was an intoxicated violently resisting criminal.
Oh, but he said he couldn't breath! Really? How do you carry on a conversation for 7 minutes if you can't breath?
George Floyd, stoned out of his gourd on Fentynal, 10 times worse than Heroin, worked his sick drug addicted self into such a state that he passed out.
So, did the cops just let him die? No, of course not, they called for medical assistance, twice!
George Floyd was alive and breathing when he left the scene.
Repeat
George Floyd was alive and breathing, as in Not Dead, when he left the scene.
In fact, even with the medical attention of an ambulance, EMT, and trained firefighters, George Floyd died of heart failure.
Heart failure. Yes imagine that a guy with:
Covid-19.
Recent methamphetamine use.
Fentanyl intoxication.
Severe multifocal arteriosclerosis heart disease.
Hypertensive heart disease.
...who died of heart failure in an ambulance.
Murder? Really?
The police union rep is moving to have the officers reinstated. The defense lawyers are going to have a field day with George Floyd, the sick, intoxicated, resisting criminal who died of heart failure long after he left the scene.
If you do not believe me just go to their web site
Stardusty,
Kindly give us a link to this website you want us to examine.
Black Lives Matter, the organization, is super easy to find.
Just look in the yellow pages for anti male, anti family, pro thug, fraudulent, radical hate group. They are right there.
Else, if that fails, try google. Then look at the pictures of the protesters on the BLM site, then look at the pictures of the founders on the BLM site, then read what BLM states as what they stand for, again on the BLM site.
See a pattern?
Without the drama BLM website
"We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable."
Note, "man" and "father" are unspeakable words for lesbian founded and operated BLM, who seek to eliminate black fathers from two parent families.
" Black liberation movements in this country have created room, space, and leadership mostly for Black heterosexual, cisgender men — leaving women, queer and transgender people, and others either out of the movement or in the background to move the work forward with little or no recognition. As a network, we have always recognized the need to center the leadership of women and queer and trans people."
Note, BLM is an anti-heterosexual male organization,rather, BLM is for women and queers (their words).
"n 2014, Mike Brown was murdered by Ferguson police officer Darren Wilson. It was a guttural response to be with our people, our family — in support of the brave and courageous community of Ferguson and St. Louis as they were being brutalized by law enforcement, criticized by media, tear gassed, and pepper sprayed night after night. "
Michael Brown was a violent criminal, guilty of a strong arm robbery, who punched a police officer through the window of a police car, tried to steal the officer's gun, and was soon after shot in self defense as the violent criminal Michael Brown tried to attack the officer again. "Hands up don't shoot" was a lie. Rioters and looters only made black lives that much more difficult.
BLM is a pro-criminal, LBGT, dystopian, anti male, anti family, radical hate group.
It is right there on the site bmiller so kindly linked.
Read it for yourself, but again, I advise you to remove any rose colored glasses you might be wearing, then read the words and look at the pictures and investigate the brutal crimes BLM has supported and continues to encourage.
It's always a shame when out-and-out racists butt into an otherwise respectable conversation. Just go away, Stardeplorable. You have nothing worthwhile to add here.
Oh, and BLACK LIVES MATTER!
otherwise respectable conversation
Yeah, right.
Starhopper,
I noticed that you did not point out any factual errors on my part. Can you?
Which statement of mine, specifically, indicates to you that I am, in your view, racially biased?
Starhopper said...
There may be other descriptors, but the above are non-negotiable.
So, a unitarian who acknowledges being a sinner, repents, makes attempts to sin no further, asks for forgiveness and and mercy, prays regularly, and strives to live in a way that non-Christians can see the image of Christ in his actions is nonetheless an unfaithful Christian?
StardustyPsyche,
If you do not believe me just go to their web site, read what they declare they stand for, look at all the pictures carefully, but be sure to first remove any rose colored glasses you might possibly be wearing.
The first picture I noticed, that was not of victims nor of speakers for an engagement, was the still of a video, featuring a father walking down the street with his sun.
Note, "man" and "father" are unspeakable words for lesbian founded and operated BLM, who seek to eliminate black fathers from two parent families.
That's the reaction I would expect from a bigot. People who actually think and study on these issues are aware that 1) misogyny is rampant in minority communities, so any statement of justice has to include statements specifically supportive of women, and 2) lesbians who make loud, strong statements supporting transgender women are generally not the sort that want to remove men from their lives.
It's nice of you to display your rabid hatred. You can put it away now, no one will forget it's there.
StardustyPsyche,
I noticed that you did not point out any factual errors on my part. Can you?
Are you making the claim that you are so stupid, you actually believe it's impossible to present facts in a racist fashion? If you are making that claim, I will take you at your word.
One Brow,
You need to exercise precision in your language. There's a difference between being an unfaithful Christian (such as Christians who support Trump), and not being a faithful Christian (such as Unitarians who deny the Holy Trinity).
Unitarians are not Christians. They are their own religion. They can very well be faithful to their own teachings while not being Christians. But Christian Trump supporters are still Christian. They're simply being unfaithful to their religion's teachings.
Parse the sentences carefully. You'll see the difference.
There are also people who claim to be Christian but misrepresent Christianity. Like Starhopper.
Hal,
Based on my 30 years experience as a Christian, I'd have to say you are the one misrepresenting Christianity.
You're an atheist. You left Christianity. Your opinion of who or what represents Christianity is of no value.
"You're an atheist. You left Christianity. Your opinion of who or what represents Christianity is of no value."
Now I don't see that at all.
I used to live in Arizona, but I moved away. But my opinions about that state still have some validity.
I used to be in the Army, but no longer am. But my views on the proper relation between the military services and politics are still worth listening to.
I used to play baseball, but am now too old. And I'll be damned before I allow anyone to say I can't still have an opinion on the designated hitter rule.
Hal,
You rejected Jesus Christ as your Lord and savior. That your present cult borrows some aspects of Christianity is nothing new. It's a very Gnostic thing to do to borrow from Christianity and then have a distorted understanding of Christianity.
I think it would be preposterous of me to argue with you about whether or not you are fairly representing atheism. Not only because I think atheism is preposterous and wrong, but also because it's not my circus and not my monkeys.
Now I don't see that at all.
Atheists think Christianity is a delusion and false. So them having an opinion on what the deluded should or should be deluded about is just absurd.
Starhopper said...
One Brow,
You need to exercise precision in your language. There's a difference between being an unfaithful Christian (such as Christians who support Trump), and not being a faithful Christian (such as Unitarians who deny the Holy Trinity).
Unitarians are not Christians. They are their own religion.
Capitalization also matters. There is no single unitarian religion. Several unitarian religions consider themselves Biblical literalists. If the definition of "Christian" is something like "follower of Christ", "believer in Christ", etc., they are certainly Christians in that sense, just not Trinitarians.
Parse the sentences carefully. You'll see the difference.
I'm well aware of that difference. I was just curious because you included one item of pure doctrine along with five items of applying doctrine to behavior. The contrast was interesting.
Hal,
Saw you were posting over at Ed Feser's site. Good luck! I used to respect him but looks like he has drunk the Trump kool-aid too. Some pretty bigoted "Christians" over there.
My first stint commenting over there was years before Trump started talking about politics. I don't see much of a difference. Feser and his crew have always been like that.
bmiller,
You rejected Jesus Christ as your Lord and savior.
That's like saying you reject Thor as your god. You don't even believe in a Thor to accept or reject.
"I was just curious because you included one item of pure doctrine along with five items of applying doctrine to behavior."
For myself, I demand a personal adherence to a multiplicity of doctrines. I do not hold others to the same high standard, however. As far as I am concerned, if a person professes belief in the Trinity, a literal Incarnation, and the Redemption, they are (as far as belief is concerned) a Christian. all the rest is highly desirable, but not mandatory. Behavior, as you noted, is a separate (but equally necessary) issue.
Starhopper,
So a belief in the literal Incarnation and Redemption (I would argue the, for example, the JWs believe in both) is not sufficient?
Having been both a Trnitarian and a unitarian in my life, I find the insistence odd.
"is not sufficient?"
No, it's not. And all the Apostles and Church Fathers would not only agree with me, they would insist on it... to the point of martyrdom.
Yes, the word "Trinity" was not immediately revealed, but the entire NT is nevertheless soaked in the doctrine. So is the OT, if you have eyes to see.
Hal,
Absurd. If that were true classical scholars would be incapable of understanding and explaining Greek religion because they don’t believe in the Greek gods.
You aren't a scholar, but you are a religious zealot.
Non sequitur
Agreed.
It's good to know you can recognize this type of fallacy on occasion.
I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.
I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried,
and rose again on the third day
in accordance with the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins
and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come. Amen
All true. Every word, syllable, and phoneme of it.
Hal,
Non sequitur.
You are correct, bmiller. Your quoting (or perhaps recitation) of the Creed is a complete non sequitur. Even a murderer or a pedophile can recite the Creed and mean it. It doesn't excuse him of his sins.
I'm not a murderer or a pedophile.
Bearing false witness is a sin.
Hal,
I'm not in your cult, so a cultist accusing me of a sin, probably means I'm doing the right thing.
That plus doubling down on your Non sequitur
Explanation for the changes in the liturgical version of the Nicene Creed.
Oh, yeah? what about "For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished."
Hal,
Are you ok? Your posts are no longer making any sense.
I did mistype one post where I pointed out that you were doubling down on a sequitur.
The other post was for Starhopper regarding the relatively recent changes in the liturgical version of the Nicene Creed.
I'm guessing those are the ones you're referring to.
I've read snippets from the Alter translation, but my go-to copy of the Tanakh is the New JPS Translation.
Hal said...
"StardustyPsyche provides proof positive that even an atheist can be a hate-filled bigot."
Yet you are unable to point out even a single specific statement I made that is factually incorrect.
Your statement is merely an emotional reaction to inconvenient truth telling by me.
Islam, BLM, Trump...people call me names when I tell the truth on these sorts of subjects, but I have noticed such people are generally incapable of justifying their name calling against me.
Why is it that you only call names, but provide no specific justification for that name calling?
One Brow,
"Are you making the claim that you are so stupid, you actually believe it's impossible to present facts in a racist fashion?"
I am making the claim that you are only capable of making vague irrelevant rhetorical statements and questions, while providing zero evidence that anything I said was even slightly racist is any respect whatsoever.
Starhopper,
I noticed that you still did not point out any factual errors or racist statements on my part. Can you?
Or is your only capacity vapid name calling?
One Brow,
I said "Note, "man" and "father" are unspeakable words for lesbian founded and operated BLM, who seek to eliminate black fathers from two parent families."
You said "That's the reaction I would expect from a bigot"
What sort of bigotry is it to expect an organization that claims that to them "Black Lives Matter", to not actively exclude from their leadership and public imagery half of all black lives?
Sexism is bigotry, BLM is profoundly and unabashedly sexist against heterosexual men, therefore BLM is a profoundly bigoted organization (besides being fraudulent, anti-law enforcement, pro-thug, and criminal).
But by all means, please do show me where BLM promotes black heterosexual men as fathers, husbands, leaders, and positive role models.
Can we all stop being crazy?
Just joking. I know the answer.
Starhopper,
No, it's not. And all the Apostles and Church Fathers would not only agree with me, they would insist on it... to the point of martyrdom.
Historically, the doctrine of the Trinity took a couple of centuries to be formed.
Yes, the word "Trinity" was not immediately revealed, but the entire NT is nevertheless soaked in the doctrine. So is the OT, if you have eyes to see.
I've seen, and believed, both sides of that issue. People tend to see in there what they have been told to see.
However, since I have no desire to debate Trinitarianism vs. unitarianism, I'll flounce on this topic. Thank you.
StardustyPsyche,
I am making the claim that you are only capable of making vague irrelevant rhetorical statements and questions, while providing zero evidence that anything I said was even slightly racist is any respect whatsoever.
When you engage in classic racist tropes and make racist pronouncements, I don't really need to do anything further to demonstrate what you demonstrate. If you want to have a conversation about why some responses are racist tropes or why some pronouncements come across as racist, I'm happy to engage. Frankly, that would take a level of willingness to consider points contrary to your focus that I have never seen you express.
StardustyPsyche,
I see you love sexism as well. That's unsurprising.
What sort of bigotry is it to expect an organization that claims that to them "Black Lives Matter", to not actively exclude from their leadership and public imagery half of all black lives?
The explain this best for themselves:
As organizers who work with everyday people, BLM members see and understand significant gaps in movement spaces and leadership. Black liberation movements in this country have created room, space, and leadership mostly for Black heterosexual, cisgender men — leaving women, queer and transgender people, and others either out of the movement or in the background to move the work forward with little or no recognition. As a network, we have always recognized the need to center the leadership of women and queer and trans people. To maximize our movement muscle, and to be intentional about not replicating harmful practices that excluded so many in past movements for liberation, we made a commitment to placing those at the margins closer to the center.
Sexism is bigotry, BLM is profoundly and unabashedly sexist against heterosexual men, therefore BLM is a profoundly bigoted organization (besides being fraudulent, anti-law enforcement, pro-thug, and criminal).
'It's not about guys!!! It's horrible if it's not about guys!!!'
Not everything has to be about men. However, when they make a video that, for them, says what matters, it features plenty of (presumably) heterosexual men with their families.
https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-matters-2020/
But by all means, please do show me where BLM promotes black heterosexual men as fathers, husbands, leaders, and positive role models.
Fathers and husbands, in video above. Outside of that, why does everything have to be about men? Do you think there are no organizations that promote black heterosexual men as leaders and role models? Why is it bad that this organization has a different focus?
One Brow,
"why some pronouncements come across as racist,"
Ok, so you admit that I did not say anything racist, but you interpreted my statements as racist.
That makes you the bigot because you did not judge me as an individual based on the actual content of my words, rather, you applied your bigotry to make a personal judgement of me just because my words kind of sound to you like something a racist would say.
So, you didn't engage me as an individual, rather, you applied your personal prejudices, those things you pre-judged by your emotional association and then passed a negative personal attribution onto me.
You have only succeeded in showing your bigotry, and unlike you, I have cited your specific words and specifically why they make you a bigot.
https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-matters-2020/
"Fathers and husbands, in video above"
Did you notice that as the narrator said "what matters" women were on the screen?
When the narrator said "vote you out" men were on the screen?
So BLM finally holds its nose and puts out a video with some men in it. of course, they still cannot bring themselves to actually promote fatherhood in a two parent heterosexual marriage, nor have they taken down their sexist statements that exclude black heterosexual men.
BLM continues to be a bigoted organization, bigoted against black heterosexual men as fathers, husbands, leaders, and positive role models, especially in a heterosexual two parent marriage, which remains anathema to BLM
To put it bluntly, here is, of all things, an Evangelical Protestant minister warning his fellow Christians that they are endangering their very souls as well as doing grave damage to Christianity by their support for Donald Trump.
I like the video I linked to, because it doesn't go into politics. It doesn't worry about "left" versus "right" or progressive versus conservative, but rather focuses on the Body of Christ, and the damage that Christian supporters of Trump are doing to it. Simply put, any professed Christian who supports Trump might as well be helping Longinus shove that spear into the side of Christ. He is like a person who passes on a new scourge to the beaters, or fresh nails to the crucifiers.
"Jesus wept" indeed. There's no need to give Him new cause for weeping.
StardustyPsyche,
Ok, so you admit that I did not say anything racist, but you interpreted my statements as racist.
Statement that come across as racist are racist. I was trying to acknowledge that your intent may not have been to talk like a racist.
That makes you the bigot ...
Yet another attempt to boomerang name-calling instead of engage in dialogue. That's what I have come to expect from people who don't like to discuss why their own behavior is offensive.
... I have cited your specific words and specifically why they make you a bigot.
I'm not overly worried about the opinion of someone who thinks BLM is in the wrong because they want to give women and LGBTQ people a voice.
StardustyPsyche said...
Did you notice that as the narrator said "what matters" women were on the screen?
When the narrator said "vote you out" men were on the screen?
Sure. OK. I admit I can not descend to that level of stupidity and fake outrage.
I noticed black men on the screen when it was talking about police accountability. A black male child when talking about schools, a black single father when talking about water quality, a black man at "low wages", a heterosexual black family as "low opportunity", a black man at "whole, and healed", and heterosexual couples at "we are going to show up, and fight for what we really need".
So BLM finally holds its nose and puts out a video with some men in it. of course, they still cannot bring themselves to actually promote fatherhood in a two parent heterosexual marriage, nor have they taken down their sexist statements that exclude black heterosexual men.
Your interpretation of this single video is so highly selective and biased, it is truly a monument to bigotry. Thank you for confirming I never need to be careful with my words around you again. You are a misogynist through and through.
One Brow,
"Statement that come across as racist are racist."
Ok, your statements come across as bigoted, therefore you are a bigot.
One Brow,
"Your interpretation of this single video is so highly selective and biased"
I have been following BLM for years. This is the first time they have ever put a picture of a man on their site who was not a criminal or an alleged victim.
For years all the pictures of the founders, the protesters, even all the models for the clothing they sell have always been women.
If you don't know that then you just have not been following what a profoundly sesist LGBT organization BLM has always been and remains.
Of course the narrator of this video is a woman and nowhere on the BLM site is there any word that describes a heterosexual black man in a positive way as a father, husband, leader, or role model.
If you don't understand that BLM is a lesbian founded and led organization that has nothing good to say about heterosexual black men as fathers, husbands, leaders, and role models then you simply do not know how to read for comprehension.
You are in real need of an education about BLM, Tree will help you out
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3eeaQOKMqk&t=10s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bym5mvqSBeQ
https://youtu.be/iRz7Vb6MtgU?list=PLpscmNlJarcPpWMcE6S-JZwfG38Yf6Wru
"I have been following BLM for years."
So-o-o-o... In addition to being a racist and a conspiracy theorist, you're also a stalker?
Explains so much...
Say there Starhopper, I still have not seen you cite a single thing I said that was either factually incorrect or racist, tic tock.
BLM came to general attention when they lied to defend the violent criminal, Michael Brown, inciting riots and crime as a response to a fine police officer who did his duty with great courage and professionalism.
Their older web sites were simpler, which is understandable for a new organization. They stated their LGBT anti-heterosexual male agenda then and they have not changed those words much at all in the last few years.
Recently they have doubled down on their fraudulent defense of the violent criminal Michael Brown, dishonestly calling his death a murder.
Here is a man who is very concerned about the LGBT agenda of BLM, but I guess he is also a racist, right?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uy3Bgoj2xrg
Hi All
I'm back.
Starhopper noted:
"I'm fairly certain that the vocal support for Trump by way too many evangelical Christians has been the cause for many thousands of people abandoning Christianity, and for millions more getting a negative impression of it."
I am so looking forward to the next religion census in a year or so. The 'Nones' may well be over 50%
Papalinton,
Welcome back! We all assumed you'd been eaten by a dingo!
As to your comment, sadly, you are probably correct. Every time an Evangelical Trump supporter opens his mouth, thousands more souls are lost to Christ. Our "president" (sic) is the devil's number one recruiter!
The title of the article on the rally in this morning's Washington Post is hilarious:
Trump heads to red-state America — and faces a sea of empty blue seats
StardustyPsyche
Ok, your statements come across as bigoted, therefore you are a bigot.
Regarding you, I probably will be in the future. The time of weighing is over.
I have been following BLM for years. This is the first time they have ever put a picture of a man on their site who was not a criminal or an alleged victim.
Based on your prior description of that video, I have zero reason to believe that this is true. Doubly so because on their front page, right now, is a picture of heterosexual, male Deepak Chopra next to one of their speakers, announcing a joint event.
I don't see the point responding to the rest of your characterization, because you have shown yourself completely untrustworthy in making them. There were no less than 7 omissions of positive examples you could not see in the video. You missed 7 to pick up on two inclusions that were not even negative, but that you chose to interpret as negative.
A sensible person would ask themselves why they made such a glaring omission, and what else they may have missed over the years. I have zero expectations you will engage in such self-reflection.
If you don't understand that BLM is a lesbian founded and led organization ...
Why would this matter?
You are in real need of an education about BLM, Tree will help you out
Sure. Blaming feminism (a movement that never had serious political power) instead of the War on Drugs (by people with plenty of political power, and using Sowell as a guidepost. I was barely into the video, and I can see where it's going.
No wonder you're so comfortable among the other bigot and misogynists on Feser's site.
The strangest thing about StarBigot's obsession over a single website is that he somehow thinks it somehow speaks for the hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of citizens who have been out on the streets peacefully demonstrating for an end to systemic racism in this country. I'd gladly wager everything I own (which admittedly isn't that much) that the overwhelming majority of those people do not even know this website exists, let alone think that it is in anyway representative of their motivation for protesting. Black Lives Matter is not an organization, not a political party, not antifa, not a conspiracy, but a slogan. It is shorthand for "End systemic Racism in Law Enforcement and in the Rest of Society" (which is way too many words for a sign).
So StarRacist can go on all he wants about how offended he is about an irrelevant website. All he's doing is firing blanks into the void.
One Brow,
" I have zero reason to believe that this is true"
Ok, so you admit that you have not been following BLM and you do not know their history.
One Brow
"If you don't understand that BLM is a lesbian founded and led organization ...)
"Why would this matter?"
Stupid question. BLM, is an anti-black male as father, husband, leader, and role model organization. BLM has a radical sexist LGBT agenda they have put at the forefront of their messaging since several lesbians founded the LGBT organization they named Black Lives Matter.
The fact that BLM is a fraudulent anti-law enforcement radical hate group is not due to the fact that BLM is a lesbian founded organization, it just happens that those particular individuals continually conspire to spread lies, defend criminals, incite riots, and commit crimes.
Besides their criminal and fraudulent activities they also promote a sexist LGBT agenda and the fact that BLM was founded by lesbians is relevant to the fact that BLM promotes a sexist LGBT agenda.
Starhopper,
"The strangest thing about StarBigot's obsession over a single website is that he somehow thinks it somehow speaks for the hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of citizens "
You are a bigot because you have yet to cite a single thing I actually wrote that is racist or factually incorrect.
All you do is half scan my words, get all butt hurt, apply your pre-judgements, and make your bigoted ignorant remarks.
If you had bothered to actually read you would see that the first thing I said was that the Black Lives Matter movement is a good thing.
Learn how to read and learn how to make distinctions, but, that is not likely to happen because bigots like you lack the capacity to make distinctions and project that on others even when they explicitly state that distinction.
StardustyPsyche,
Ok, so you admit that you have not been following BLM and you do not know their history.
I know your history on this form, and I know that your statements on BLM are of no value. In particular, I know that you missed at least 7 positive portrayals of men in a video on the BLM website, and seemingly missed Chopra's picture on the front page as well. I don't need to follow BLM to know that, if they had had a picture of a straight, heterosexual male who was not a criminal nor victim on their site, you would have overlooked it; your own testimony is ample evidence thereof. I have no reason to believe you.
"If you don't understand that BLM is a lesbian founded and led organization ...)
"Why would this matter?"
Stupid question. BLM, is an anti-black male as father, husband, leader, and role model organization.
Even if this were true, and I have no good reason to believe it, what would that have to do with being founded and led by lesbians?
BLM has a radical sexist LGBT agenda they have put at the forefront of their messaging since several lesbians founded the LGBT organization they named Black Lives Matter.
It's not "sexist" to support marginalized groups. Further, if they have 'a radical LGBT agenda they have put at the forefront of their messaging since several lesbians founded the LGBT organization they named Black Lives Matter.', *good for them*. Why should I object to that?
... it just happens that those particular individuals continually conspire to spread lies, defend criminals, incite riots, and commit crimes.
Except, Black Lives Matter inspires peaceful protests and spreads a subversive narrative, as opposed to doing what you said.
I can't imagine being as hateful a person as you present yourself to be.
One Brow,
"I don't need to follow BLM to know that"
Ok, so you again admit your ignorance of the history of the BLM message, so, you quite literally do not know what you are talking about.
BLM posted a few token ambiguous shots of a few men, likely queer (their word), after years of not posting any pictures of any men at all.
But you are ignorant of BLM by our own admission, so you don't realize that.
StardustyPsyche,
"I don't need to follow BLM to know that"
Ok, so you again admit your ignorance of the history of the BLM message, so, you quite literally do not know what you are talking about.
You took that from a paragraph where I was describing your behavior. Are you saying your behavior and beliefs are so tied into BLM opposition that observing your behavior is impossible without having followed BLM for years? That's pretty sad. You should stalk some other groups, try to be more rounded.
BLM posted a few token ambiguous shots of a few men, likely queer (their word), after years of not posting any pictures of any men at all.
Deepak Chopra is not gay, and as I already described, several of the picture from teh video were of seemingly heterosexual men with wives and children. Your blindness to this is evident, perhaps willful.
I went back over the weekend to listen to the videos you linked. They amounted to "feminism bad, blacks don't like gay and trans people, therefore BLM is bad". You can't possibly believe they make a sound argument.
But you are ignorant of BLM by our own admission, so you don't realize that.
You have given me solid reasons to disbelieve you. BLM has not.
"You took that from a paragraph where I was describing your behavior."
Irrespective, you have admitted your ignorance twice.
StardustyPsyche,
Irrespective, you have admitted your ignorance twice.
I have never claimed that I know the history of BLM. I only claim to know that you are an untrustworthy historian regarding them, based on how you describe their site today, and so I have no reason to believe your descriptions.
If Stardusty was truly interested (which he does not appear to be) in what BLM stands for, he would not endlessly harp on a single website, which can't possibly speak for the hundreds of thousands of totally unorganized protesters, demonstrators, and marchers in the streets. He would talk to those very people and listen to what they say. I'd gladly wager a great deal that the overwhelming majority of those speaking up in the streets will have never heard of Stardusty's website, never looked at it, and if they did, they'd say "Doesn't speak for me!"
What he would hear instead would be a great deal about the need to end systemic racism in this country, and the need to reform, and even re-imagine, the police force and judicial system.
One Brow
"I have never claimed that I know the history of BLM"
Right, you don't know what you are talking about, we've established that.
Starhopper
"If Stardusty was truly interested (which he does not appear to be) in what BLM stands for, he would not endlessly harp on a single website,"
It's their website, it states the sexist, anti-law enforcement, LGBT, fraudulent agenda of the BLM organization in clear English, right there for anybody and everybody to read.
Also, you can go news sources to see how the founders and leaders spread their lies and get themselves arrested defending thugs, promoting crime, and denigrating terrific law enforcement officers.
If you are not aware of all of that then you, like One Brow, don't know what you are talking about.
"which can't possibly speak for the hundreds of thousands of totally unorganized protesters, demonstrators, and marchers in the streets"
Who are not the BLM organization, they are part of a broader movement based on the myth of systemic and systematic racism in law enforcement, vast numbers of people who are living in the past, can't take yes for an answer, don't understand statistics, don't understand law enforcement, don't understand crime, and don't know what they are talking about.
"What he would hear instead would be a great deal about the need to end systemic racism in this country,"
It is impossible to end a myth, the subject of the myth, except by exposing that it is a myth.
Police violence is proportional to police contact.
Police contact is proportional to crimes committed.
Virtually all police violence is justified.
Among the tiny sliver of incidents that are unjustified they happen to whites just as often as blacks, once you understand the rudiments of interpreting statistics.
Police violence is tiny compared to social violence, so, if all police violence were ended it would make virtually zero difference in the incidence of violence generally, assuming no change in social violence. But that is a bad assumption, because by not allowing the police to stop criminals we would see a dramatic increase in social violence.
Rational people understand that what the BLM organization wants, and what the BLM movement wants would be ultimately self destructive.
"It's their website"
No, it's not! BLM is not "owned" by any organization, political party, website, or any group whatsoever. It is a grass roots movement of the people.
Sorry if you can't understand something as basic as that.
"Who are not the BLM organization"
And that's because there is no BLM organization.
"the myth of systemic and systematic racism"
Says the white man.
Starhopper
"Says the white man."
You are a racist, denigrating my statements because of my race.
"And that's because there is no BLM organization.
"Wowwwww, your ignorance is almost limitless.
BLM is an organization with chapters
https://blacklivesmatter.com/chapters/
BLM, the organization, has founders
https://blacklivesmatter.com/our-co-founders/
BLM, the organization, has copyrighted material
Copyright © 2020 Black Lives Matter Boston - All Rights Reserved.
https://blacklivesmatterboston.org/
BLM, the organization, sells merchandise and takes donations
https://store.blacklivesmatter.com/store/
Donate to
Black lives matter
https://www.paypal.com/donate/?token=n2IRoBlYSweUwlu_9zU5WMVidhJVPAF7Y5RgZa-e-MmNhiVvsavWy0ucm20KhTDtHta7_m&country.x=US&locale.x=
Purpose: Black Lives Matter Boston
BLM, the organization, was founded, has chapters with chapter leaders, publishes mission statements, sells merchandise, takes credit card and paypal donations, and even holds copyrights!
I'll repeat what I said, white boy. There is no BLM organization that speaks for the movement. It is utterly irrelevant whether or not there exists some fringe group has founders, chapters, members, donations, a website, merchandise, and even calls itself Black Lives Matter. It is not consubstantial with the BLM movement.
(There! Fist time I've ever used that word meaningfully outside of the liturgy.)
Starhopper.
You said there is no BLM organization. That was a stupid statement.
There is BLM the organization, and there is BLM the broader movement.
BLM the organization is just that, an organization. That organization also has a large influence on the broader BLM movement.
BLM, the organization, is an LGBT, anti-law enforcement, racist, criminal, fraudulent, anti black male father in family organization.
BLM, the broader movement, is strongly influenced by but not directly controlled by BLM the organization.
BLM the movement is a large group of people who lack critical thinking skills, are living in the past, do not understand statistics, do not understand crime, do not understand police work, and believe in myths like systemic or systematic racism because the don't have a clue how to interpret statistics.
BLM the movement is also heavily influenced by the lies of BLM the organization, particularly the lies that BLM the organization puts out about cases of the justified use of force by police, which is what nearly every so called police murder is, a false narrative that demonizes cops who did the right thing to protect themselves and all of us from dangerous criminals.
But you are a racist, so you don't understand all that because your thinking is stupefied by your bigotry.
I'll again repeat myself, honk. Perhaps the third time will be the charm.
The is no BLM organization that is in anyway identifiable with the BLM movement. The BLM movement has no hierarchy, no leadership, no membership, no dues, no charter, no website.
"BLM, the broader movement, is strongly influenced by but not directly controlled by BLM the organization."
Total bullshit. The movement is not only "not directly controlled" by your bugaboo, it isn't controlled by it at all. It has zero influence over the people in the streets who, by and large, have never heard of this fringe group of no importance whatsoever. You are pissing into the wind.
Here's an interesting question that has much broader implications than this specific conversation. Stardusty called me a racist because I called him, a white man, out for saying that systemic racism was a myth. So his implied position (he didn't explicitly say this) is that you don't need to be black in order to deny there is racism. My position is quite the opposite. Unless you yourself are a person of color, you have no business having an opinion on whether or not systemic racism exists. That is for the person suffering from such to say.
I'm obviously OK with that, as far as it goes, because it is, after all, my position. But what about similar situations? Does a man have the right to weigh in on abortion, or should that be a matter for women, and women alone, to decide? Does a person who has never served in the military have the right to send other people to war?
Is it ever OK to tell another individual how and what to think, if you do not share, or have not shared, the same experiences? And if so, when?
Starhopper
"Unless you yourself are a person of color, you have no business having an opinion on whether or not systemic racism exists."
Textbook racism from you.
This is worse than I realized, you are like a Nazi, or a tobacco spitting KKK slob, or a modern white power loon. You are proud of your racism.
Somehow you have it in your head that a social condition is detectable only by people of a particular race, therefore, you think I am incapable of detecting this condition and have no right to even hold an opinion on the subject, all because of my race.
See, I'm not like that. If a black person, or Asian, or native American feels they have interacted with white people, studied relevant statistics and social factors, and thereby feel they have a valid or reasonable position on what it is like to be white in America, fine, that is OK with me. There might be some misconceptions around the edges, or they might have it largely wrong, or they might be spot on, I can't tell just from their race whether their opinion is valid or not.
You are not like me because you are a racist who thinks I have no business even having an opinion at all because of my race.
Your post proves you don't have the faintest idea of what racism actually is. You might want to learn something before you meaninglessly throw around baseless accusations.
Racism is impossible without power. I cannot be a racist in relation to you, since I have zero power over you. It is why it is far easier for a white person to be a racist than a black man, since (in this country, at least) 99% of all power is in the hands of white males.
"Racism is impossible without power"
Ha Ha Ha!!!
That is a real knee slapper. The sobering aspect, though, is that so many of my fellow Americans actually believe that stupidity.
" I cannot be a racist in relation to you, since I have zero power over you."
Listen you racist moron, you are racist because you judge me based on race. You are racist because you attempt to tell me what I can and cannot have an opinion on based on my race.
Racism is a conviction of bias held by a person who has biased convictions based on race.
Racism is a prejudice based on race. Racism is when somebody pre-judges the other because of the other's race.
Your idiotic power rationalization is just an excuse for racists like you to be racists while rationalizing their own racism away.
StardustyPsyche,
Right, you don't know what you are talking about, we've established that.
We've also established that you are an unreliable source, whose opinion regarding BLM is worthless.
StardustyPsyche,
It's their website, it states the sexist, anti-law enforcement, LGBT, fraudulent agenda of the BLM organization in clear English, right there for anybody and everybody to read.
Their current website does state an LGBT agenda quite clearly, but it is not sexist, not anti-law-enforcement, and not fraudulent. That's your hatred and bias clouding your judgement.
StardustyPsyche,
It is impossible to end a myth, the subject of the myth, except by exposing that it is a myth.
Only the profoundly ignorant can be so smug and so wrong.
Police violence is proportional to police contact.
Incorrect. This has been studied. Police are actually slightly less likely to initiate violence against black people once there has been contact, because there are so many more contacts with black people, even though at all levels of wealth, whites are more criminal.
Police contact is proportional to crimes committed.
Incorrect. This has been studied. If you alter this from "crimes committed" to "convicted crimes", it's pretty close to true. However, it's also true that white criminals are more likely to be released by the police with no arrest, less likely to be prosecuted after arrest, and less likely to be convicted if a prosecution is started. Even though white people are more likely to be criminal, black people get more police contract.
Virtually all police violence is justified.
To imprecise to be true or false.
Among the tiny sliver of incidents that are unjustified they happen to whites just as often as blacks, once you understand the rudiments of interpreting statistics.
Most of the studies on this are also biased by the overwhelming disparity in police contact rate.
As someone said, "Right, you don't know what you are talking about, we've established that."
StardustyPsyche said...
... and believe in myths like systemic or systematic racism because the don't have a clue how to interpret statistics
So, where are these statistics that disprove the existence of systemic racism?
One Brow,
"So, where are these statistics that disprove the existence of systemic racism?"
In front of your nose and at your fingertips.
Anybody who is unable to find the great body of work showing that there is no substantial evidence for statistically significant systemic racially motivated police violence is either an idiot, incompetent, a bigot, or a liar.
Below is one brief summary that makes a particular reference.
Do some research on indicators such as:
What sorts of crimes are likely to lead to police contact and what are the rates at which those crimes are reported, observed, and police contact occurs of black versus white suspects?
What is the rate of police violence against blacks versus whites as perpetrated by black versus white officers?
What percentage of police homicides were ruled justified?
What percentage of police homicides of whites were ruled justified?
What percentage of police homicieds of blacks were ruled justified?
More generally, how does one control for relevant factors in order to make meaningful interpretations of raw statistics?
There are many studies, many academics who have written on the subject, but overall the data, when carefully controlled for, clearly shows no support for systemic racially motivated police violence.
"But academics have noted that the proportion of black suspects arrested by the police tends to match closely the proportion of offenders identified as black by victims in the National Crime Victimization Survey.
This doesn’t support the idea that the police are unfairly discriminating against the black population when they make arrests."
https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-black-americans-commit-crime
" Even though white people are more likely to be criminal,"
Ha Ha Ha!!! Wow, you really are a racist moron.
Here is just one example showing how blacks commit murder at 7 times the rate of whites
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/98/United_States_homicide_offending_rates_by_race_1980_2008.svg
And on and on and on.
Violent crimes are generally the most reliably identifiable with race because the victim typically knows the race of the perpetrator.
"The crime in which blacks are most over represented is robbery (for a fascinating albeit controversial discussion, see Katz 1988), comprising 62 percent of arrestees in 1993. In general, blacks are approximately six times more likely to be arrested for violent crimes than are whites (U.S. Department of Justice)"
https://dash.harvard.edu/bitstream/handle/1/3226952/Sampson_RacialEthnicDisparities.pdf?sequence=2
But, still we hear ignorant protesters shouting how blacks are about 2.5 times more likely to be killed by the police than whites. Given that blacks are about 6 times more likely than whites to commit violent crime that would indicate that there is indeed a problem of systemic racism, that cops are much harder on whites!
However there is more to it than that, many more factors to consider, all of which add up to the notion of systemic racially motivated violence against blacks by police being a myth.
StardustyPsyche,
I will make no attempt to educate you, because you are a committed racist and a worshipper of the police, from what I can tell. So, while I'll point how why you're wrong, I won't bother with evidence. You can't reason people out of emotional positions.
Anybody who is unable to find the great body of work showing that there is no substantial evidence for statistically significant systemic racially motivated police violence is either an idiot, incompetent, a bigot, or a liar.
The great body of scientific research point in the opposite direction, so that is obviously not what you mean by "work". Since you don't accept the great body of scientific evidence, I accept your conclusion that you are either an idiot, incompetent, a bigot, or a liar.
Do some research on indicators such as:
What sorts of crimes are likely to lead to police contact and what are the rates at which those crimes are reported, observed, and police contact occurs of black versus white suspects?
Traffic violations lead to more police contact than any other crime, and studies show they are overwhelmingly biased against black people.
What is the rate of police violence against blacks versus whites as perpetrated by black versus white officers?
What type of moron would think the color of the police office would make a difference? Besides you, that is.
What percentage of police homicides were ruled justified?
What percentage of police homicides of whites were ruled justified?
What percentage of police homicieds of blacks were ruled justified?
You forgot to add "by other police officers" to each of those statements.
More generally, how does one control for relevant factors in order to make meaningful interpretations of raw statistics?
Different people use different methods, of course.
There are many studies, many academics who have written on the subject, but overall the data, when carefully controlled for, clearly shows no support for systemic racially motivated police violence.
There are a handful of studies, all with their caveats, usually buried in the middle of the paper. Off the top of my head, the Fryer study says in the middle that that black people being approached by police more frequently, for less cause, would alter the results of his analysis.
https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-black-americans-commit-crime
You link calls your stated position "naive".
" Even though white people are more likely to be criminal,"
Ha Ha Ha!!! Wow, you really are a racist moron.
Once you adjust the the crime statistics for SES, this is true. It's also true from evidence of traffic stops, where white people are more likely to have contraband than black people.
Here is just one example showing how blacks commit murder at 7 times the rate of whites
You can expect a racist to blame race for the results of poverty. I would have been surprised if you had not.
https://dash.harvard.edu/bitstream/handle/1/3226952/Sampson_RacialEthnicDisparities.pdf?sequence=2
Perhaps most striking, the delinquency rates of African-American youth living in nonunderclass neighborhoods were largely equivalent to those of whites living in nonunderclass areas. Although unable to study whites in disadvantaged areas, Peeples and Loeber's findings support the idea that community context helps us interpret the race-crime association.
But, still we hear ignorant protesters shouting how blacks are about 2.5 times more likely to be killed by the police than whites. Given that blacks are about 6 times more likely than whites to commit violent crime that would indicate that there is indeed a problem of systemic racism, that cops are much harder on whites!
To the statistically illiterate, perhaps.
However there is more to it than that, many more factors to consider, all of which add up to the notion of systemic racially motivated violence against blacks by police being a myth.
0 + 0 = 0.
One Brow,
"0 + 0 = 0"
Yes, that is the amount of evidence you have provided that shows systemic racially motivated violence against blacks by the police is not a myth.
"Here is just one example showing how blacks commit murder at 7 times the rate of whites
You can expect a racist to blame race for the results of poverty."
Accurate statistics cannot be racist. Truth cannot be racist. Blacks have in fact committed murder at far higher rates than whites, at times just a few decades ago some 10 times the rate of whites.
The police can only deal with the actual crime that actually occurs, whether the cause is poverty, bad education, broken homes, subversive music, or whatever one wishes to cite. The cop comes to the scene when shots are fired, irrespective of why the shooter chose to commit the crime.
" It's also true from evidence of traffic stops, where white people are more likely to have contraband than black people."
Which very seldom leads to an arrest or even getting out of the car, thus there is little chance for resisting arrest or threatening the officer and thus relatively few traffic stops escalate to police violence, much less racially motivated unjustified police violence.
"0 + 0 = 0"
Yes, you have provided zero evidence that there is systemic racially motivated unjust police violence. Proving the negative, proving that accusation to be a myth, while generally more difficult than proving the positive, cannot easily be done. But witness identification of the race of the perpetrator correlates with arrest rates by race, per the link I provided.
You have provided no evidence that systemic racially motivated police violence exists.
StardustyPsyche,
Yes, that is the amount of evidence you have provided that shows systemic racially motivated violence against blacks by the police is not a myth.
There would be no point, because I see no sign you are amenable to reason on this issue. There are entire books collating the research on systemic racism into easily digestible form, and you dismiss them. I have no reason to think you'll listen to a blog comment.
Accurate statistics cannot be racist. Truth cannot be racist.
When a person tells me they are so stupid, or so self-blinded, that they do not understand it is possible to present accurate facts and partial truths in a racist context, I believe them.
Blacks have in fact committed murder at far higher rates than whites, at times just a few decades ago some 10 times the rate of whites.
Which very seldom leads to an arrest or even getting out of the car, ...
A higher percentage of white people have contraband. A higher percentage of black people are arrested for contraband. This is systemic.
Proving the negative, proving that accusation to be a myth, ...
Provide the SES-adjusted statistics that show equal treatment.
One Brow,
You are wasting your time. Racism is like a cult, and it is nigh on impossible to break through the concrete skulls of cult members. Stardusty has drunk so deeply of the poison of racism that truth about the subject is unrecognizable to him. A sure "tell" of this, is that he accuses anyone who calls him out on his racism to be themselves the real racists.
I've seen this condition so many times. When people say things like "I don't see color" or "All lives matter", you know you're speaking to a racist (or at the least to someone very naive about the subject).
Confession: I myself used to say "all lives matter" until I learned better. I didn't realize how ignorant it made me sound. (Which was justice, because I was ignorant.)
Don't believe there's such a thing as systemic racism?
Well then, just watch this.
Starhopper,
I agree, with is why I'm not bothering digging out links, studies, etc. As you might say, "casting pearls before swine".
One Brow,
"There are entire books collating the research on systemic racism into easily digestible form"
Then it should be very easy for you to prove systemic racism is not a myth in 2020, or the past few years.
Blacks commit murder at 6 times that rate of whites. So, that is an indicator of how much more prone to the commission of serious crime blacks are as compared to whites.
Why is that? Why is it a fact that the rate of serious violent criminality is so much higher for blacks than that of whites? Are the police somehow making all those black people commit all those murders?
What is your link from supposed police racism to blacks murdering people, mostly other blacks, at over 6 times the rate as compared to whites? How does that happen? What is your proposed mechanism for that linkage?
Police kill twice as many whites as they do blacks. For every black person killed by the police two white people are killed by the police. If systemic racism is the prime motivation for police killings why are twice as many whites getting killed by the cops?
"Blogger Starhopper said...
Don't believe there's such a thing as systemic racism?
Well then, just watch this."
The cop pulled the gun on the white guy, the cops left without arresting the black women, The cops at Starbucks spent time calmly responding to a manager complaint. In Pheonix the cops killed 40 plus criminals, so what makes you think they were disproportionately black, I mean other than the fact that you are a racist?
Where is all this systemic racism by the cops? What are you smoking that makes you see racism everywhere? Or is it that you are such a deeply disturbed racist that you assume everybody else is as racist as you are?
StardustyPsyche said...
Then it should be very easy for you to prove systemic racism is not a myth in 2020, or the past few years.
Proof is for mathematics and alcohol. Demanding proof is the hallmark of the pseudo-scientist.
I could spend 15 minutes, 30 minutes, or 3 hours gathering evidence. Why? To see myself type?
Blacks commit murder at 6 times that rate of whites. So, that is an indicator of how much more prone to the commission of serious crime blacks are as compared to whites.
See, this is what I mean. You show every indication of wanting to buy into the effects of systemic racism as an answer to show there is no systemic racism.
What is your link from supposed police racism to blacks murdering people, mostly other blacks, at over 6 times the rate as compared to whites? How does that happen? What is your proposed mechanism for that linkage?
Socio-economic status explains it, and even more, so that after adjusting for it, black people seem to be slightly less violent.
If systemic racism is the prime motivation for police killings why are twice as many whites getting killed by the cops?
I don't know what it would mean for systemic racism to be a motivation.
The cop pulled the gun on the white guy, the cops left without arresting the black women, The cops at Starbucks spent time calmly responding to a manager complaint.
When you respond like this, I know there is no point to using reason and evidence. You show no interest in anything outside of interpreting situations to make you feel comfortable, and seem to have no trouble with two black men being arrested for sitting inside a Starbucks.
" no trouble with two black men being arrested for sitting inside a Starbucks. "
How is that systemic racism by the police?
It might have been individual racism by the store manager, the the police responded to a call by a business manager who reported that a non-paying non-customer refused to leave the premises when asked to leave.
The police handled the situation very professionally. No systemic racism by the police, again, as always.
Systemic racism by the police is a myth, any have provided noth8ing but meandering blather in "evidence".
You have no evidence of systemic racism by the police because systemic racism by the police is a myth, as evidenced by your pathetic "example", which in fact only shows evidence against your own position.
StardustyPsyche said...
How is that systemic racism by the police?
Police are participating in the differential treatment of black men by society. It's practically a textbook example.
Systemic racism by the police is a myth, ...
As I said above, and as you have again shown, there's no point in bringing evidence into this discussion, because you are too self-blinded to see evidence clearly.
"Police are participating in the differential treatment of black men by society."
Ha Ha Ha!!!
Zero racism by the police equals racism by the police. You are a moron.
The cops come when shots are fired, or the alarm goes off, or a complaint is called in.
Cops don't care if the criminal is white or black or brown or red or yellow. When a crime is committed the cops make an arrest.
Systemic racially motivated arrests and violence by the police is a myth.
StardustyPsyche,
Zero racism by the police equals racism by the police. You are a moron.
I'm intelligent enough to understand the meaning of the word "systemic". It would be nice to know that you are, but you're not giving evidence of that right now.
Cops don't care if the criminal is white or black or brown or red or yellow. When a crime is committed the cops make an arrest.
We know that cops are much more likely to arrest black people, especially black men, for the same offense than they are white people/men. Again, this has been studied.
Systemic racially motivated arrests and violence by the police is a myth.
Closing your eyes to something does not make it mythical.
One Brow
"We know that cops are much more likely to arrest black people"
Ha Ha Ha!!!
"We know" is your evidence. That is hilarious.
Cops arrest people for crimes irrespective of race. Cops are killing white guys every day, twice as many as black guys. Why? Because those white dirtbags were criminals, fighting or threatening the police and others, so the cops killed those white criminals just like they kill the black criminals who fight the cops and threaten the lives of others, and good riddance.
When a black officer kills a white criminal I say give the officer a medal and congratulate him for staying safe and going home to his family, and scratch one white dirtbag. DSAF
StardustyPsyche,
"We know" is your evidence. That is hilarious.
My evidence is the multitude of studies on arrest rates that have been performed.
Cops arrest people for crimes irrespective of race.
Feel free to lie to yourself in any way that makes you comfortable.
"My evidence is the multitude of studies on arrest rates that have been performed."
Of course blacks are arrested more than whites per capita, blacks commit vastly more crime per capita of the sorts of crime that leads to arrest.
Why do you think there are so many black murder victims every year? Answer, the vast majority of those dead black folks got killed by other black folks, at 6 times the rate white folks are murdering. Just count the bodies and do the math.
Newsflash, virtually all the people in prison are factually guilty of the crime they got sentenced for. White, black, brown, yellow, read, male, female, whatever, they did the crime.
When a black guy gets murdered it is almost always because some other black guy murdered him, so if the cops can catch him they arrest him, but if he threatens the cops like he is going to murder the cops just like he murdered that black guy then the cops kill him in self defense, then BLM goes out defending another criminal screaming about the cops and the board of inquiry finds out the truth, that the cops did the right thing and now we just have one less criminal to worry about.
Whenever I am utterly repulsed (like today) by the sickening drivel that Stardusty regularly posts here, I think about how awful it must be for him to have such filth living in his brain. It must truly be hell to live with all that inside one's very own skull.
So, what did I say in my last post that is not true?
Black people commit the kinds of crimes that lead to arrest at vastly higher rates per capita than whites, for example, blacks commit murder at 6 times the rate of whites.
Nearly all the people serving a sentence in prison are factually guilty of the crime they were sentenced for.
The vast majority of black people who get murdered were murdered by a black person.
The vast majority of police killings are legally justified self defense.
On average the cops kill a white man every day, but the cops kill black men at half that rate.
Most of the people the BLM organization defends were in fact criminals, in the act of committing a crime, and police actions were in fact justified contrary to the hysterical lies of the BLM organization.
Only a racist like you would fail to see the truth in every word I just wrote.
StardustyPsyche,
Of course blacks are arrested more than whites per capita,
Which is not not what I said. We know that, for various offenses where police show discernment in whom to arrest and whom to give a warning, black people get ticketed and arrested more often than white people for the same offenses.
Why do you think there are so many black murder victims every year?
Because they live in impoverished neighborhoods at a much higher rate.
Answer, the vast majority of those dead black folks got killed by other black folks,
Why does the race of the perpetrator matter?
Newsflash, virtually all the people in prison are factually guilty ...
Newsflash, factually guilty white people are much less likely to go to prison.
So, what did I say in my last post that is not true?
I ask again, do you really believe it is not possible to present facts with a racist bias? If you understand that it is possible to present facts in a racially biased fashion, how is this question relevant?
Only a racist like you would fail to see the truth in every word I just wrote.
Only the self-blinded, hateful person would think those facts are relevant to the discussion.
"Which is not not what I said. We know that, for various offenses where police show discernment in whom to arrest and whom to give a warning, black people get ticketed and arrested more often than white people for the same offenses."
Warnings are for tickets, not for arrests.
What, you think if you are white, blow a .12, the cop will let you off with a warning? How idiotic.
Yeah sure, the cops know that white guy committed the robbery, but we are just gonna give him a warning. How stupid.
"Newsflash, factually guilty white people are much less likely to go to prison"
How do you know that? Oh, never mind, you are a racist, you don't need evidence, you just make assumptions based on race.
To recap my true statements:
Black people commit the kinds of crimes that lead to arrest at vastly higher rates per capita than whites, for example, blacks commit murder at 6 times the rate of whites.
Nearly all the people serving a sentence in prison are factually guilty of the crime they were sentenced for.
The vast majority of black people who get murdered were murdered by a black person.
The vast majority of police killings are legally justified self defense.
On average the cops kill a white man every day, but the cops kill black men at half that rate.
Most of the people the BLM organization defends were in fact criminals, in the act of committing a crime, and police actions were in fact justified contrary to the hysterical lies of the BLM organization.
I would like to know how any American with the least shred of decency, with even an iota of Love for country, could ever consider voting for Trump after hearing THIS.
And PLEASE, do not dismiss it as, "Well that's just MSNBC, that's fake news. I don't hear this on FOX, so it can't be true." (I already know that there are Trump cultists who will refuse to even watch. Hands over their eyes, and loudly yelling "Ya, ya, ya, ya..." so they can't hear.)
There are no words strong enough to describe the utter and total depravity of this man who calls himself our "president". That title is an honor that you don't get simply by amassing enough electoral votes. You have to earn it.
I'll grant him the presidency... of Antenora (look it up).
StardustyPsyche,
Warnings are for tickets, not for arrests.
Warnings are for non-tickets and non-arrests. The only somewhat sensible way to interpret whay you just said, AFAICT, if is you are claiming that any time a police officer sees something that a person could be arrested for, they automatically arrest them. That's just mind-numbingly ignorant.
What, you think if you are white, blow a .12, the cop will let you off with a warning? How idiotic.
In Illinois, the legal limit for commercial drivers if .04, but .08 for non-commercial. You you went to bar after work, and and get stopped while not on the job, but driving the company vehicle, with a level of .05, the police office will make a judgement call on whether or not to take you in. These judgement calls go in favor of white drivers much more often than for black drivers.
Yeah sure, the cops know that white guy committed the robbery, but we are just gonna give him a warning. How stupid.
Even if you are correct about robberies, are you claiming this is universal across all crimes? Because statistically, you're just wrong.
"Newsflash, factually guilty white people are much less likely to go to prison"
How do you know that?
There have been decades of studies by dozens of people on these topics.
To recap my true statements:
Until you can explain their relevance, they are just empty facts cherry-picked with an apparently racist intent.
"Even if you are correct about robberies, are you claiming this is universal across all crimes? Because statistically, you're just wrong."
So even if I am right I am wrong, how typical of you.
Look at what people are sentenced for in this so-called "mass incarceration". It isn't significantly DUI, it is murder, robbery, theft, assault, including home invasions, bank robbery, child molestation, corruption, drug dealing, and a host of very serious crimes.
No, there are no studies that show the cops just let white guys go who commit those crimes. Provide a citation. Ridiculous.
But, just suppose you are correct, that nearly all black people sentenced in prison are guilty, and nearly all white people sentenced in prison are guilty, But, there are lots of guilty white guys out on the street because a racist cop let him go (a ridiculous contention, but let's just suppose).
In that case what good does shouting "Black Lives Matter" do? The black folks behind bars are guilty. The problem, you say, is that there are too many guilty white guys on the street.
We should all be shouting "Lock Up The Guilty White Guys Too!!!"
I'm ok with that, totally. If it is true, as you say, that the cops let guilty what guys go because the cops are racist then, yes, that would be a problem.
The solution, in that case would be to get all those guilty white guys behind bars where they belong, increase our prison population from about 2 million to about 3 million. I am ok with that.
Since you have no negating response for the truthful items I have listed twice then those statements by me stand as true and uncontested by you.
StardustyPsyche,
So even if I am right I am wrong, how typical of you.
So, you don't even understand the notion of a subset, at least when it would interfere with your self-blinding to racism.
Look at what people are sentenced for in this so-called "mass incarceration". It isn't significantly DUI, it is murder, robbery, theft, assault, including home invasions, bank robbery, child molestation, corruption, drug dealing, and a host of very serious crimes.
It's 47% in federal prisons on drug crimes, which I don't regard as particularly serious, and 15% in state prisons. Overall, only about half of our prison population are i9n there for violent crimes.
No, there are no studies that show the cops just let white guys go who commit those crimes. Provide a citation. Ridiculous.
Really? I can provide just one citation, and you'll give up this argument? If not, how many citations will it take?
In that case what good does shouting "Black Lives Matter" do? The black folks behind bars are guilty. The problem, you say, is that there are too many guilty white guys on the street.
The problem Black Lives Matter, and other protestors, are addressing is the differential pattern of police contact and force escalation between people of different skin colors, which comes down hardest on those with darker skin. This happens to plenty of people who are not committing crimes.
Since you have no negating response for the truthful items I have listed twice then those statements by me stand as true and uncontested by you.
The polar bear (Ursus maritimus) is a hypercarnivorous bear whose native range lies largely within the Arctic Circle, encompassing the Arctic Ocean, its surrounding seas and surrounding land masses. It is a large bear, approximately the same size as the omnivorous Kodiak bear (Ursus arctos middendorffi). A boar (adult male) weighs around 350–700 kg (772–1,543 lb), while a sow (adult female) is about half that size. Polar bears are the largest land carnivores currently in existence, rivaled only by the Kodiak bear. Although it is the sister species of the brown bear, it has evolved to occupy a narrower ecological niche, with many body characteristics adapted for cold temperatures, for moving across snow, ice and open water, and for hunting seals, which make up most of its diet.
Unless you have a negating response for the truthful items I have listed above, those statements by me stand as true and uncontested by you. They are equally relevant to this discussion.
One Brow
" If not, how many citations will it take?"
Certainly more than zero, which is what you have provide thus far, perhaps several depending on the quality of the study and the validity of their methodology, in particular their control factors.
"Unless you have a negating response"
Ok, so again, no negating responses to me, three strikes on you, this makes.
All my listed statements stand as true and un-negated by you.
StardustyPsyche,
Certainly more than zero, which is what you have provide thus far, perhaps several depending on the quality of the study and the validity of their methodology, in particular their control factors.
Weasel words. The citations and studies are widely available and easy to find, but you don't particularly care to read them. If we're playing the game where you expect me to do your homework for you, then there needs to be a rule about how much is enough.
Ok, so again, no negating responses to me, three strikes on you, this makes.
You have no negating response to my facts, so I thank you for acknowledging the correctness of my position.
One Brow,
"The citations and studies are widely available and easy to find"
Then it would be easy to post those citations, but you have no available citations to back up your claims so you just point vaguely out into the distance claiming your mirage is real.
But, I am glad that you agree that all the items I listed as true assertions are factually the case.
StardustyPsyche,
Then it would be easy to post those citations,
I'm a slow typist with terrible Google-fu, so it takes me longer than I would like, and I won't bother for no purpose.
But, I am glad that you agree that all the items I listed as true assertions are factually the case.
I also thank you for acknowledging the correctness of my facts.
So, again, the below statements have not been contested as to there truthfulness. Other statements on other subjects have been made, the usefulness of the below true statements has been questioned, but the truth of these statements remains uncontested.
Black people commit the kinds of crimes that lead to arrest at vastly higher rates per capita than whites, for example, blacks commit murder at 6 times the rate of whites.
Nearly all the people serving a sentence in prison are factually guilty of the crime they were sentenced for.
The vast majority of black people who get murdered were murdered by a black person.
The vast majority of police killings are legally justified self defense.
On average the cops kill a white man every day, but the cops kill black men at half that rate.
Most of the people the BLM organization defends were in fact criminals, in the act of committing a crime, and police actions were in fact justified contrary to the hysterical lies of the BLM organization.
Go away, racist.
Please point out which of the above statements are factually incorrect, and how you know they are factually incorrect.
For example, is it racist to state that black people commit murder at a per capita rate 6 times that of white people? If so, why?
StardustyPsyche,
So, again, the below statements have not been contested as to there truthfulness. Other statements on other subjects have been made, the usefulness of the below true statements has been questioned, but the truth of these statements remains uncontested.
We have long since agreed you cherry-picked true facts in a racist fashion.
One Brow
"We have long since agreed you cherry-picked true facts in a racist fashion."
You think that because you are racist. You have no idea what my points are, or how those facts would fit into whatever arguments I would make.
You just assume out of your own racism that one cannot state those particular facts without being racist. That make you a racist, not me. You are the one pre-judging the context in which I cite those facts, which makes you manifestly prejudiced.
StardustyPsyche,
You think that because you are racist.
I think that because it is true.
You have no idea what my points are, or how those facts would fit into whatever arguments I would make.
Have they changed in the last few days? It's not like you've been shy about trying to make your point.
You just assume out of your own racism that one cannot state those particular facts without being racist.
I understand the importance of context around facts, something you either can't understand or choose to ignore.
You are the one pre-judging the context in which I cite those facts, which makes you manifestly prejudiced.
You've stated your context before (the justification of police violence).
One Brow,
"I think that because it is true."
In your mind. That is what makes you a racist, your pre-judgements based on race.
StardustyPsyche,
In your mind. That is what makes you a racist, your pre-judgements based on race.
Except, I have no idea what your skin color is or what race people would think you belong to, so I have no ability to judge you based on your race. I can only judge based on the data you choose to present and the points you are attempting to make with that data, which is being done in a racist fashion.
One Brow,
"Except, I have no idea what your skin color is"
Ooops, I thought you had been reading, sorry about that.
"you are attempting to make with that data, which is being done in a racist fashion."
Ha Ha Ha!!! Spoken like a true butt hurt snowflake who needs a safe space where wordings fit your preconceived notions of social constructs else you run out shrieking "RACIST".
StardustyPsyche said...
Ooops, I thought you had been reading, sorry about that.
Was it in this thread? I don't read everything.
Ha Ha Ha!!! Spoken like a true butt hurt snowflake who needs a safe space where wordings fit your preconceived notions of social constructs else you run out shrieking "RACIST".
The whole world is my safe space, and your sad attempts at insults don't redeem your racist intent.
Funny!!! Now you are a mind reader! Somehow you know my intent. You must be god!!!
You are so full of yourself you think you know my intent, hilarious.
Oh by the way, aside from One Brow's asinine contention that he is a mind reader who can know the intentions of folks he converses with on line, the George Floyd case is shaping up about as I expected.
https://lawandcrime.com/george-floyd-death/photo-of-fake-20-bill-released-as-ex-cop-tries-to-get-charges-in-george-floyds-death-dismissed/
Turns out that Floyd had more counterfeit money in his car. In case you don't know it counterfeit money can be purchased on line for 20 cents on the dollar, or it can be purchased through criminal contacts like the ones Floyd had in prison.
Floyd's crime, this time, was to buy fake 20s, probably for about $4 each. Then go around buying stuff with the fake money, like a pack of cigarettes, so he gets the cigarettes plus about $15 in laundered money as change, all for just four bucks.
Well, the store clerks didn't like that so when the went out to confront Floyd they saw more cash which did in fact turn out to be fake, plus they could tell Floyd was high on something, in the driver seat of his car.
When the cops get there, Floyd, a career criminal who had been sentenced and served time 6 times already, refused to comply. The cops told him 10 times to show his hands but instead he kept shoving his hands in between the seats, so the cop pulled his gun on this very suspicious and potentially deadly Floyd.
Well, they finally get Floyd out of his car, so the cop holsters his gun, but Floyd is resisting some more, now using his strength to force against the cuffing. Of course, Floyd has been cuffed and shackled probably hundreds of times with all his arrests and lock ups, so he knew perfectly well to cooperate, but he decided to resist, already.
So they sat him down, called it in, and everything was calm, until they tried to put Floyd in the squad car, at which time he started with his absurd lies, talking about how claustrophobic he is. Really? He was just in his own car, guess Floyd was only claustrophobic about cop cars, right? Yeah, no criminal wants to get in a cop car.
So the cops try to be as nice as possible, offer to roll the windows down, turn on the A/C, but no, Floyd starts flopping all over the place violently resisting, and it is so bad Floyd starts bleeding and he has foam around his mouth.
Floyd is already complaining that he can't breath and he is standing up by the cop car, so the cops call for an ambulance. That's right, the cops intend to get this counterfeiting, covid infected, stoned on fentanyl, violently resisting, lying criminal some medical help, because they are good cops and even a total violent dirtbag like George Floyd gets help from these good cops.
Well, Floyd then asks to go on the ground!!! Yes, that's right, George Floyd asked to be put on the ground!!!
So, the cops figure he is going away in the ambulance anyhow, so if this violently resisting stoned out criminal wants to go on the ground, fine, so they put him on the ground, but Floyd is still resisting! Floyd is violently flopping around so the cops discuss various ways to restrain him, but he is resisting so much they can't use their preferred technique, so they do their best to keep him under control until the ambulance gets there.
However, George Floyd is getting worse, so they call in for the ambulance to hurry up. Yes, not only are these good cops trying to help this violent criminal, they call in to get the ambulance onto the scene as fast as possible.
Now, if your intent is to murder somebody do you call for an ambulance to come at maximum speed while the guy is alive and breathing? Really? How does that make sense?
So, these good cops are doing their best to keep this violently resisting, opioid intoxicated criminal under control with minimum force and the guy just up and passes out, maybe, unless he is faking, which is common for criminals to do, play possum.
Well, the ambulance pulls up and George Floyd is alive, as in, not dead, otherwise known as, not murdered.
They put him in the ambulance, give him all the care they can in a modern ambulance staffed with EMT people, and at a later time down the road after leaving the scene George Floyd died of cardiac failure.
Now, Floyd had covid-19, with recent methamphetamine use, on top of severe multifocal arteriosclerosis heart disease, on top of hypertensive heart disease, and at the time he was stoned on fentanyl (an opioid 10 times more potent than heroin), on top of working himself into a state of violent resistance that required that he be restrained.
All of those actions and diseases and drugs of George Floyd's own making killed George Floyd.
George Floyd killed himself.
Oh, and just to help you folks out a little I am going to soften the blow for you as those good cops who made the George Floyd arrest get out of their wrongful arrests and are released with no convictions and actions are filed by the officers for wrongful termination, which they will win.
Here is another take on basically the same information that has been obvious from the start, that all the officers in the George Floyd arrest are completely innocent.
https://medium.com/@gavrilodavid/why-derek-chauvin-may-get-off-his-murder-charge-2e2ad8d0911
ExDS
Get used to that term, you are going to be hearing a lot about it soon, Excited Delirium Syndrome. It turns out that George Floyd was exhibiting classic symptoms of ExDS, the officers discussed it, and the officers followed their training on how to deal with a person in this condition.
Officers are trained, when they have a suspect with ExDS, to do the following:
Call for an ambulance.
Restrain the individual face down.
Restrain the individual with side neck pressure (does not block air flow or blood flow).
Keep the individual restrained until the ambulance arrives.
The good cops who handled the George Floyd arrest discussed these matters at the time, and followed all the procedures called for in case of ExDS.
Those cops did their jobs correctly.
So, just doing you a favor, be prepared for the dropped charges and the acquittals and the wrongful termination suits because the defense attorneys are going to demolish the BLM hysteria.
StardustyPsyche,
You are so full of yourself you think you know my intent, hilarious.
You don't need to read minds, just your text. Sure, if you are deliberately pulling some sort of long con job, but assuming you're posting honestly, the intent is in the words.
"You don't need to read minds, just your text. Sure, if you are deliberately pulling some sort of long con job, but assuming you're posting honestly, the intent is in the words."
Listen nitwit, nobody knows the intentions of others just by reading some words on a blog.
Yes, you would have to read the mind of the other, because people are complex and do not fit into your little boxes.
The fact that you think you can read another person's intent by a few blog posts shows what a conceited little twerp you are.
You are like those twits over on the Feser blog who will call you a troll, like they know your intent. They will swear they can tell from your words what you intend to do and why you are saying what you say, and of course it is all because you are a troll.
The morons over there calling you a troll are full of themselves dolts and so are you.
Correction, I'm sorry, it is not the case that George Floyd had available to him counterfeit $20 bills from online sources for 20 cents on the dollar, that is my mistake. That number came from a story about Peruvian counterfeit money that is flowing into the USA using the same smuggling channels as Peruvian cocaine. That counterfeiter said his price for $100 bills was 20 cents on the dollar.
Actually, the online price is 10 cents on the dollar.
All George Floyd would have had to do was pay $300 in bitcoin and he would receive a package of $3000 in counterfeit $20 bills.
https://bestcounterfeitbills.com/product/buy-counterfeit-20-dollar-bills/
Of course, the public does not know where George Floyd got the counterfeit money he passed, we only know that the store clerks kept a fake $20 Floyd gave them and that Floyd shoved at least two more fake $20s between the seats of his car while he was being non compliant and the officer therefore drew his weapon in defense against that threat.
So, the public knows that Floyd had at least 3 counterfeit $20 bills. We have not been told if any more were found on his person, or elsewhere in the car, or if the passengers in Floyd's car might have taken more fake bills with them when they got out of Floyd's car.
Floyd had been locked up with 6 separate sentences, plus he was taking illegal drugs such as methamphetamine and fentanyl, so clearly George Floyd had multiple criminal contacts where he could have purchased the counterfeit money he then passed.
How many counterfeit bills do you have right now? Chances are, none. The Treasury Department estimates that about 0.01% (1/10000) or possibly as much as 0.025% (1/4000) of bills in circulation are counterfeit.
So, at any time, assuming random distribution, chances are that 0.025% of the bills you have are fake. So, if you have, say, 10 bills in your wallet, chances are 0.25% of them are fake. Not very likely.
So how about 3 bills? What is 0.00025^3? 6.25e-8 or 0.0000000625 or 0.00000625%
So, which is more likely, do you think, that a career criminal with a history of home invasion and gun robbery, intoxicated on a potentially lethal dose of fentanyl after taking methamphetamine had bought some counterfeit money on line or through his criminal contacts and was passing them to feed his drug addiction, or just by a 0.00000625% chance he happened to have 3 fake bills that day?
StardustyPsyche,
Listen nitwit, nobody knows the intentions of others just by reading some words on a blog.
Insults are the last refuge of those unable to argue.
You can know stated intent, implied intent, and infer intent by the application of reasoning, just from words on a blog.
Yes, you would have to read the mind of the other, because people are complex and do not fit into your little boxes.
What are my boxes, and why do you think you don't fit into one of them?
"You can know stated intent, implied intent, and infer intent by the application of reasoning, just from words on a blog."
My stated intent is not racist.
You can only confidently infer intent if you are a conceited moron. People are much, much too complex to reliably infer intent from a few blog posts.
I can guess multiple possible intents you might have, and I might be right about one of those inferred guesses or you might turn out to have other intents I did not even consider.
That's why the idiots over at the Feser blog who insist that they can infer from your words that you intend to troll them are conceited nitwits, like you.
OBTW, the publicly available evidence is getting stronger and stronger that all the cops did all the right things according to their training and the only person on scene to blame in the death of George Floyd is George Floyd.
Systemic racism? Nope, it is not the case, according to this black police officer. But what does he know, I mean, he is just a black man who is a leader in a black organization and an MPD officer, he knows jack, right?
"Walker, who is also vice president of the National Black Police Association’s Minnesota chapter, said Tuesday that it’s his opinion that there’s not systemic racism in law enforcement.
“I believe it’s a punchline used right now to divide us,” he said. “It’s very divisive and it needs to stop. I believe we have progress in our city that people are failing to recognize. We have a Black attorney general. Our city council has a lot of minorities on it. Our chief is Black. I’m the first ever elected Black union leader in my department. You don’t hear that.”"
https://www.twincities.com/2020/06/23/minneapolis-police-union-president-in-wake-of-george-floyd-he-considered-stepping-down-but-officers-told-him-to-stay/
Right. And I guess that since we elected a black president and Oprah is so popular, there is no longer any racism in America. Of course!
Gimme a break!
There is no longer any statistically significant systemic or systematic racist treatment of blacks by white police officers in America.
There are still cases of individual racism among individuals, such as the few thousand remaining KKK members, a small number of Nazis, and an a substantial number of white power, white supremacist types, as well as the core leadership of the organization Black Lives Matter and others who immediately attribute racism based on skin color only showing their own racism.
The Jim Crow days are long gone. Redlining was made illegal. All major corporations have non discrimination written polices, and it is against the law to have written racist policies in nearly all aspects of business and government.
Many police chiefs, mayors, sheriffs, and officers are black. Blacks are just as likely to be subject to police violence from black officers as white officers, proportionately.
A white guy gets killed by the cops every day. So what is that motivation? What, whenever a white cop kills a white guy that is justified policing, and when a black officer kills a white guy that is justified policing, but somehow when a white officer kills a black guy under the same sorts of circumstances then it is assumed to be racist? That is racism in America, the racist attitude that is so widespread against white officers.
I know the last 4 posts or so are kind of long, but the George Floyd death is a major event in American history, I think it is worth getting the facts straight.
Facts:
George Floyd was caught committing a serious crime, passing counterfeit bills, we know he had at least 3 counterfeit 20s. Floyd knew he was caught and was going to prison for the 7th time, and given his bad health and long record, there was a real chance he would never get out of prison alive, hence his feeling that he was effectively dead and his desire to tell his family he loved them.
That's gotta hurt. I mean, it was real painful when he realized he had let himself down, let his family down, and he was at the end of the line, caught passing counterfeit bills to feed his drug problem.
Plus, he was stoned on recent methamphetamine, a near lethal dose of fentanyl, and he was feeling bad from the Covid-19, and had two forms of heart disease.
That's when the ExDS set in. He just went wild, flopping all over the place, complaining he couldn't breath, bleeding, foam at the mouth, feeling violent revulsion at getting into the cop car he knew would likely be the last time he ever saw the outside again.
Finally, George Floyd asked to be put on the ground, so the cops went along with his request, calling the ambulance 2 times to get them to hurry up.
The officers talked about a hobble, cuffing his ankles, but Floyd was kicking around too much for that. The officers discussed Floyd's ExDS condition and the procedures the MPD trained them to follow.
The MPD manual clearly instructs the officers to do exactly what they did, place him in a prone position, use side neck pressure (does not block blood or air), and restrain the ExDS individual until the ambulance arrives.
No surprise Floyd passed out, ExDS criminals stoned on heavy doses of opioids often do pass out. Later, after Floyd left the scene his bad heart gave out under all the stress and the drugs and disease as often happens in cases of ExDS.
The terminations of the officers, all the officers, was wrongful. Their arrests were false. They should all be reinstated to their jobs and fully compensated for all losses plus punitive damages against the department and the prosecutors.
Also, America owes all those officers a very big apology.
StardustyPsyche,
My stated intent is not racist.
Your stated intent is to justify police activity, which is carried out in a racist fashion. Supporting racist policing makes it a racist intent.
Systemic racism? Nope, it is not the case, according to this black police officer.
Because the police never lie nor cover for each others actions? Because black people can't be racist? How hollow your insults become when you actually try to make an argument.
There is no longer any statistically significant systemic or systematic racist treatment of blacks by white police officers in America.
I leave you to your denial.
Stardusty's entire argument boils down to the playground retort, "I know you are, but what am I?"
*Systemic racism? Nope, it is not the case, according to this black police officer.*
"Because the police never lie nor cover for each others actions?"
You will have to ask that black police officer that question, those are his words spoken from his reasons.
"Because black people can't be racist?"
That is such an idiotic statement that I am not able to connect it to any rational, or even irrational, argument.
"I leave you to your denial."
Indeed I deny the lies perpetrated against those fine law enforcement officers who conducted the George Floyd arrest as MPD trained them to.
"Stardusty's entire argument boils down to the playground retort, "I know you are, but what am I?""
In a childish mind I suppose that might seem true.
Which of the facts of the properly conducted George Floyd arrest do you contest?
George Floyd knowingly and for criminal profit passed counterfeit money, and was caught committing that crime.
George Floyd failed to properly respond to police orders to show his hands so he could try to hide additional counterfeit cash he had in his possession.
George Floyd used force to resist his original cuffing.
George Floyd was obviously severely intoxicated.
George Floyd lied when he said he was claustrophobic about getting into a car.
George Floyd complained that he could not breath long before he was on the ground.
George Floyd violently resisted a lawful order to get into the squad car.
George Floyd requested to be put on the ground several times.
George Floyd resisted a hobble restraint by kicking his feet.
Officer Chauvin followed written MPD procedures by placing George Floyd in the prone position.
Officer Chauvin followed written MPD procedures by placing his knee on the side of George Floyd's neck.
Officer Chauvin followed written MPD procedures by restraining George Floyd until the ambulance arrived.
Officer Lance discussed with officer Chauvin the assessment that George Floyd was in a state of ExDS, and the two officers agreed that the procedures written by MPD for cases of ExDS were being implemented.
The police officers on the scene called for an ambulance 2 times, at first because of George Floyd's apparent condition, and then again to request the ambulance travel at maximum speed due to George Floyd's worsening condition.
George Floyd had:
Covid-19.
Recent methamphetamine use.
Fentanyl intoxication.
Severe multifocal arteriosclerosis heart disease.
Hypertensive heart disease.
George Floyd passed out, as do many heavily intoxicated criminals in custody in a condition of ExDS.
George Floyd was alive and breathing at the time he left the scene of his arrest for the crime of passing counterfeit bills.
At a later time, after George Floyd had been in an ambulance under the care of fully equipped EMTs he died of cardiac failure.
Again, which of the above fact do you contest, and if you contest any, what is your evidence, specifically?
StardustyPsyche,
You will have to ask that black police officer that question, those are his words spoken from his reasons.
The question was rhetorical. Police lie in their reports regularly, in order to justify their actions.
That is such an idiotic statement that I am not able to connect it to any rational, or even irrational, argument.
I wish I were surprised that you find the notion of black people participating in systemic racism to be incomprehensible.
Indeed I deny the lies perpetrated against those fine law enforcement officers who conducted the George Floyd arrest as MPD trained them to.
I can not imagine a worse condemnation of the MPD as a whole than this statement.
Which of the facts of the properly conducted George Floyd arrest do you contest?
Which of those facts have a source outside the police reports?
You seem to have no problem with "side neck pressure", so just out of curiosity, what neck structures do you think police officers are applying pressure to?
"I can not imagine a worse condemnation of the MPD as a whole than this statement."
That may be. Policies are not written in stone. Superior officers consult in groups with whatever their sources are and write policies.
Those policies are taught at the police academy.
Cops on the street are required to follow those written policies, which is what officer Chauvin and the others all did, follow the official written policies of the MPD.
I think it is great to protest policies, petition the government to change their policies, send all the officers to sessions to review those changes to make sure those changes are adhered to. Fine, go for it, the more discussion, the more protest, the better.
But it is disgusting to make skapegoats out of individual officers. We did not put Nazi soldiers on trial, nor confederate soldiers, we certainly should not be putting officer Chauvin on trial for doing what he was instructed by MPD to do.
"Which of those facts have a source outside the police reports?"
Every statement I made is corroborated by video, audio, witness statements, photographs, medical examination, document examination, and physical evidence.
What statement I made is contradicted by hard evidence? Can you name even one?
" what neck structures do you think police officers are applying pressure to?"
Muscle and bone.
Try it yourself, it is easy. Take your arm or your fist and press it hard against your own neck. If you press in front it will quickly become painful and you will feel your air supply cut off. If you press on the right side in the position of officer Chauvin's knee you will feel a mild discomfort but you will be pressing against muscle supported by bone and you will continue to breath just fine and blood will get to your brain just fine.
The only bones there are the spine, and the spine is not good at resisting sideways pressure. A knee with body weight generates a lot more pressure than a fist.
I agree that the real issue is police training.
With all that research, did you come across the conclusion in the medical exam that Floyd's treatment by the police contributed to his death?
"The only bones there are the spine, and the spine is not good at resisting sideways pressure. A knee with body weight generates a lot more pressure than a fist."
Floyd did not suffer a dislocated vertebrae. Your vague generalities are irrelevant.
Chauvin is only about 150lb and he did not put his full body weight on that knee, not even close.
Floyd carried on a conversation for over 7 minutes with that knee on his neck, so it is obvious he was not being choked.
Broad pressure, not an impact, can be applied safely to the neck just as Chauvin did it, which is why the MPD manual specifically authorized Chauvin to do what he did, because it is known to be a non-lethal restraint technique.
Your vague and meaningless generalities do nothing to counter the obvious fact that Chauvin did not kill Floyd with his knee.
"medical exam that Floyd's treatment by the police contributed to his death?"
Of course the arrest contributed to his death. Lots of people die in custody and they are almost always people who were resisting.
The job of the police is to meet criminal violence with superior, overwhelming, controlling force to make the arrest and get the criminal off the streets to protect the rest of us. That is why fights and struggles happen, because criminals resist arrest.
Then, when the criminal has underlying medical conditions the stresses of being caught in the act of committing a serious crime, engaging in a violent struggle with the police, massive amounts of potentially lethal drugs in the blood, and underlying cardiac issues all contribute to the individual's death.
That is all Floyd's fault. Floyd killed himself. You have failed to produce even a shred of contradicting evidence to any of the statements I made above July 13, 2020 7:40 PM
George Floyd was a menace to society, passing counterfeit money, buying methamphetamine and fentynal, and driving while severely intoxicated on those illegal drugs. All the officers did their jobs by the book to bring this violent dangerous criminal under control and off the streets to end his ongoing crime spree.
Thank you officer Chauvin, Lane, and the MPD.
OBTW, George Floyd did not die under Chauvin's knee. Reports that the other cop could not find a pulse, or that he was killed outside the store or any such reports are all bullshit implications and lies that George Floyd died on the ground.
George Floyd left the scene alive.
How do we, the public know that? Because the EMTs in the ambulance carrying George Floyd (remember, the ambulance the good cops on the scene called for twice, yeah, that ambulance) called in that George Floyd was going into cardiac arrest.
Not that George Floyd was dead, no, but he was going into cardiac arrest. So, George Floyd was alive when he left the scene, then later, down the road, he started going into cardiac arrest.
Gee, imagine that, a guy with Covid-19, methamphetamine in his blood, fentanyl in his blood, severe arteriosclorotic heart disease, hypertensive heart disease, who was in a state of Excited Delirium Syndrome because he was already a 6 time loser who just got caught committing a serious crime that would likely put him away for life, who had decided to get into a prolonged fight with the police, yeah, that guy went into cardiac arrest down the road after he left the scene.
Those good cops did their jobs by the book to deal with a menace to society, George Floyd, and now all you ignorant sheep are attacking the very people who defend you against such criminals.
I have a suggestion for you, the next time an armed criminal invades your home and sticks a gun up in your pregnant wife go call BLM, I am sure they will come right down and protect you just fine.
I want everyone here to realize what a great service Stardusty is doing. Without his postings, we might never realize what honest-to-God racism sounds like. Here we have it 200 proof.
StardustyPsyche said...
Floyd did not suffer a dislocated vertebrae. Your vague generalities are irrelevant.
Based on your description, it's bad procedure, and Floyd died.
Chauvin is only about 150lb and he did not put his full body weight on that knee, not even close.
You know that because?
Floyd carried on a conversation for over 7 minutes with that knee on his neck, so it is obvious he was not being choked.
You can have enough air to speak without getting sufficient air to maintain your oxygen level. Were that to happen, you would slowly speak more and more weekly over several minutes as your O2 levels dropped. Sound familiar?
Broad pressure, not an impact, can be applied safely to the neck just as Chauvin did it, which is why the MPD manual specifically authorized Chauvin to do what he did, because it is known to be a non-lethal restraint technique.
Perhaps not always lethal.
Of course the arrest contributed to his death. Lots of people die in custody and they are almost always people who were resisting.
I'd rather the police arrest people without using methods that contribute to their death.
The job of the police is to meet criminal violence with superior, overwhelming, controlling force to make the arrest and get the criminal off the streets to protect the rest of us.
Find me a mission statement from a police force that says this. The police I usually see disagree with you.
The City of St. Louis:
Mission Statement
The mission of the Metropolitan Police Department, City of St. Louis is to protect, serve and assist citizens when conditions arise that may affect the well-being of the individual or the community. Cooperating with others in the community, officers will work to prevent and detect crime, protect life and property, and achieve a peaceful society, free from the fear of crime and disorder. Members of the Department will strive continually for excellence and maintain the peace through lawfulness, diversity, service, integrity, leadership and fair treatment to all.
The city of Belleville, IL
The principle mission of the Belleville Police Department is to provide public safety and to contribute to the quality of life for each of its citizens. We do this by protecting, serving and working with the community to develop philosophies which promote fair and equitable treatment between the citizens and police.
Thank you officer Chauvin, Lane, and the MPD.
Perhaps one day someone will thank officers on your behalf.
I have a suggestion for you, the next time an armed criminal invades your home and sticks a gun up in your pregnant wife go call BLM, I am sure they will come right down and protect you just fine.
There it is, the naked fear that drives all the racists and fascist nut-jobs. I don't live in fear.
" I don't live in fear."
Neither did the pregnant black woman in the home George Floyd invaded, until George Floyd broke in and stuck a gun up in her and threatened her life and robbed her.
There is your martyr with the wings on the mural.
George Floyd did not give a fuck about black lives.
StardustyPsyche,
There is your martyr with the wings on the mural.
A living martyr? Did you get her opinion on defunding the police from her non-ghost?
George Floyd did not give a fuck about black lives.
I do expect to hear stupid, self-justifying oversimplifications from you, and you never disappoint.
Alles,
At this point, we all need to recognize that Stardusty is a stone cold racist, and quite irredeemable. His epiphany will have to come from within. At this point, there is nothing we can do to help him.
I suggest we all just ignore him from here on out. I will set an example by not responding to any of his sickening bigotry. I'm done with him.
Yet you cannot provide any evidence that disproves any of the assertions made by me on July 13, 2020 7:40 PM.
All anybody here can do is call names and throw out red herrings.
My epiphany came years ago when I did the research and it became obvious that the organization BLM is a racist, sexist, anti-male, anti-father, anti-family, anti-law enforcement, pro-criminal, radical hate group.
Nearly all of the cases the organization BLM cries out about are instances of criminals caught in the act of committing crimes with fine police officers doing their jobs correctly only to be attacked by the radical hate group BLM organization using lies against the law enforcement officers.
George Floyd is no exception to that rule. He was a violent criminal who victimized innocent people, mostly black and brown people whose lives he obviously did not care about.
George Floyd was caught in the act of committing serious crimes of passing counterfeit money, having methamphetamine and fentanyl in massive quantities in his blood, and in the driver seat of his car while grossly intoxicated on illegal drugs.
George Floyd then actively tried to hide the evidence of his crimes, was non-compliant to police orders, lied to the police, and violently resisted arrest.
All the officers on the scene of the George Floyd arrest did their jobs by the book, literally, following the letter of the rules and procedures as they were trained to do by the MPD.
George Floyd did not die under the knee of officer Chauvin, rather George Floyd killed himself by taking massive amounts of methamphetamine and fentanyl on top of his severe heart disease and Covid-19 infection, plus George Floyd worked himself into a state of Excited Delirium Syndrome until he passed out under the stress of all his self induced compounding problems while at the scene of his properly conducted arrest.
Later, down the road, well after George Floyd left the scene, while the fine police officers who all made the arrest correctly were continuing to gather the evidence from the George Floyd crime scene, George Floyd went into a self induced cardiac arrest, thereby killing himself.
Do the research. Those are the facts of the case.
I think body cams for cops are a great idea. The cops so rarely do anything racist or biased or wrong in any way, but so many people complain unjustifiably so much about the cops, the body cam is a great way to exonerate cops.
That's what the George Floyd Arrest body cam does, exonerate cops.
https://www.startribune.com/read-the-memo-to-dismiss-charges-against-thomas-lane/571675121/?refresh=true
One interesting bit of information to come from the body cam is that George Floyd not only passed a counterfeit bill for criminal profit, but he was part of a criminal conspiracy to pass counterfeit money. It turns out that the "guy with the hat and the dreads" tried to use counterfeit money but got rejected, but then his buddy, the big guy in the tank top, was able to pass a fake bill.
It turns out that the store manager saw they each had multiple fake $20 bills.
Oh, but media reports are that poor angelic George was trying to go straight. Right, if going straight means getting massively intoxicated on methamphetamine and Fentanyl, then joining up in a criminal conspiracy to pass counterfeit money.
The Lane motion to dismiss can also be found at the above link. It shows clearly that these good officers are being thrown to the mob, a mob made up of ignorant morons like One Brow and Starhopper who think it is a good idea to wrongly terminate and charge good cops for doing their jobs properly according to their training.
The body cams exonerate those good cops, all of them, who displayed not even a tiny bit of racism as they went about a tough job with great professionalism.
OBTW, nobody here has presented a shred of evidence against any of the statements I made July 13, 2020 7:40 PM.
StardustyPsyche,
OBTW, nobody here has presented a shred of evidence against any of the statements I made July 13, 2020 7:40 PM.
Your willingness to acknowledge the appropriateness of killing Floyd is more than enough condemnation, why bother with the details?
I'm also done in this thread.
"why bother with the details"
Of course facts don't matter to you. You have your mob mentality and could not care less about the factual details.
That is why you have presented zero counter evidence to all my statements that clearly show George Floyd was caught in the act of a criminal conspiracy and actual crime of passing counterfeit currency.
He was intoxicated with massive amounts of methamphetamine and Fentanyl, lied repeatedly to the police, and violently resisted arrest.
George Floyd worked himself into a state of Excited Delirium Syndrome due to his heavy intoxication, his fear of being sentenced to prison for the 7th time, the knowledge that the evidence of his crimes would be found in his car, and his violent resisting of arrest.
The restraint used by the officers was exactly what the MPD trained them to do in the case of ExDS.
George Floyd then passed out due to his own actions and later suffered a cardiac arrest due to his illegal drug use and violent struggles with police on top of his severe heart disease and Covid-19 infection.
Justice will be served when all charges against the officers are dropped, George Floyd's criminal conspirators are arrested and charged with counterfeit related crimes, officers win their wrongful termination suits, the officers are reinstated, and the officers receive full compensation for all their losses plus punitive damages for their wrongful terminations and their malicious prosecutions.
You have no details of evidence to counter anything I have said.
You could not be more wrong.
I am pro law enforcement, and if you don't like that then tough luck for you, set your phone up to call BLM instead of 911.
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