Thursday, August 22, 2019

Abortion and "socialism"


I should make a key distinction here. I was using the term "socialism" in the way Republicans like to use it, where they treat any expansion of role of government in social welfare as socialism. This is the ostensible grounds, for example, that Mitch McConnell is killing all the legislation coming from the Democratic House of Representatives--it's socialistic. This argument was used when I was a child and conservatives such as Ronald Reagan were arguing against Medicare. If you think you can expand social welfare, and maybe raise taxes to make sure this is funded, without being accused of socialism, then fine. I don't think this is really socialism, but it is called socialism when it is opposed by people like McConnell.  What I was really arguing is that outlawing abortion is going to require a strengthening of the welfare efforts of government. In order to make sure that the children who are born who would not have been  born otherwise are given a real chance in life, taxes will probably have to go up. 

I think there is a governing philosophy on the conservative side that suggests that what government is primarily there to do is protect people from violence. So, for example, terrorists, who can kill you, have to be stopped by government, but if we use government to make sure people are protected from disease, which can also kill you, that's socialism and we ought to do that as little as possible. Hence, it's a good thing to make sure women don't get abortions, since that is a violent treat to fetuses, but once the mothers carry their children to terms we will cut funding for any effort to make them better able to take care of those children. It is simply a fact that for many families to survive, both parents have to work, yet the legislation that required employers not to fire women for getting pregnant was sponsored by Democrats like Hillary Clinton, not the pro-life Republicans. But such legislation was considered an interference with the free market, and most Republican senators opposed it. I mean what are women supposed to do, give up their jobs so they can go have their kids? I suppose if you think the woman’s place is in the home, barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen, you are OK with this. I am not.

I think serious opposition to abortion to include a willingness to step up to the plate a support those struggling families who abort babies for economic reasons. Something is wrong with our society if a woman finds herself in a situation where she has choose, as a student of mine once told me, between adequately caring for a child she already had, or carrying her pregnancy to term. And I think that means a willingness to step up to the plate via government, and a willingness to pay more in taxes to make sure that my former student's dilemma arises as infrequently as possible. Otherwise, I have to regard the "pro-life" commitments of Republicans as a mere political football to keep their voters in the fold, not as a genuine commitment to human life.

America is not a pro-life country. The idea that a woman has the right to do as she chooses with her own body is intuitively appealing to lots and lots of people. While this mind-set exists, there will be abortions, and if they are outlawed, they will occur illegally. (If abortion is outlawed, only outlaws will get abortions, but there will be plenty of outlaws). Those convinced against their will will be of the same opinion still. People who don't want to see abortions can remonstrate on ethical grounds, and they can strongly support sex education including contraceptive information even if a case for abstinence is made, and they can support pro-child public policies that reduce the occurrence of unwanted pregnancies. 


271 comments:

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Kevin said...

Never mind, bmiller, we were wrong. I just read Romans, and it clearly says "Let God be true, but every man except Barack Obama a liar."

My apologies to everyone, I had no idea Obama was so righteous.

bmiller said...

Must be in that New King Obama translation I've been meaning to look at.

Oh and in case you missed it, we are being Whataboutism'ed all over the place after being excoriated for someone imagining we were doing that very thing.

Kevin said...

A study came out back in June showing that those on the left end of the spectrum are more prone to supporting the censorship of information that casts minorities and women in a negative light. Maybe this is some of that, an instinctive, knee-jerk inclination to rush and defend Obama's black half from anything negative, including the relatively minor flaw of being a proven liar. It's truly remarkable.

Starhopper said...

"the relatively minor flaw of being a proven liar"

You've accused him of being such, but as for proving anything, you have a long way to go. You can't even admit that every charge you've so far brought up on this forum has been thoroughly shot down.

So your adjective "proven" is, wouldn't you say, a bit premature? Do you honestly believe you've made any sort of case, other than you don't like people who disagree with you politically and assume the worst about them?

bmiller said...

Maybe this is some of that, an instinctive, knee-jerk inclination to rush and defend Obama's black half from anything negative, including the relatively minor flaw of being a proven liar. It's truly remarkable.

That's what I was thinking too. Any criticism at all is viewed as racism, so people fall all over themselves virtue signalling that they aren't the racists no matter how silly it gets.

I've read that liberal reporters refrained from almost any criticism of Obama since they didn't want to be viewed as racist.

It's not very healthy to hide the truth, no matter who it flatters or who gets criticized.

World of Facts said...

I'm not surprised about that study. That's a real problem on the Left. The more PC someone is, the more they walk on egg shells to avoid saying anything bad about historically discriminated against groups and other minorities.

Therefore, yes, there must be people who blindly defended Obama for that reason. But the study doesn't mean anything at all when it comes to specific cases!

What about...
people TODAY who think it's important to discuss Obama when TODAY the potus is Trump? Is that healthy? Is that ignoring TODAY'S truth?

Sorry, but what about Obama again?
Ya fucking incompetent with emails, so was Hillary, and ya they deserved more consequences imho. But again, not a legal expert... it was scrutinized by the DoJ, not any of us.

Finally, more hurricane fun stuff:
https://youtu.be/voYuH5eGlkk
Which of these are lies VS gross incompetence?

One Brow said...

Legion of Logic said...
Never mind, bmiller, we were wrong. I just read Romans, and it clearly says "Let God be true, but every man except Barack Obama a liar."

Obama lied in the same way pretty much every politician lies. I understand that, and I think Starhopper does, as well. Sure, your list did not include a lie, but there are other, actual lies to be found. Try not to be too hurt that you could not come up with any.

One Brow said...

Hugo said...
I'm not surprised about that study. That's a real problem on the Left. The more PC someone is, the more they walk on egg shells to avoid saying anything bad about historically discriminated against groups and other minorities.

Those of us that are simply polite (aka PC) don't need to walk around on eggshells, because we generally avoid saying bad things about most people. It's the people who love to say bad things that feel like they need to walk on the eggshells.

One Brow said...

bmiller said...
I've read that liberal reporters refrained from almost any criticism of Obama since they didn't want to be viewed as racist.

Liberal reporters posted regular criticisms about Obama. Your description may be true of the centrist, mainstream media reporters.

bmiller said...

I suppose people can take the position that no one can really ever know when another person is lying since we can never read that person's mind. But then to be rational, they would have to apply that to everyone.

Never met anyone like that. Still haven't.

Starhopper said...

I will agree with you in that many of the times Trump is accused of lying, he is actually just being stupid, or else like my late father when he was descending into senility, and couldn't remember what he had done or said just 10 minutes ago.

But that said, there are literally hundreds of times when he has indisputably out and out lied to the American people, like when he said he did not authorize hush money payments to Stormy Daniels, or when he claimed to have nothing to do with the statement claiming the Trump Tower meeting with Veselnitskaya was about adoptions, or (this very week) when he said he had no idea who had made the Sharpie additions to the National Weather Service map. No mind reading necessary here, unless you are willing to concede that Trump is suffering from full blown Alzheimer's and has lost all factual connection with the objective universe.

Those are your choices: lying or mentally ill. There is no 3rd option.

bmiller said...

For all 3 of those examples, a Trump supporter could make the same types of excuses you did.

Starhopper said...

But not very convincingly.

bmiller said...

Just like you.

Starhopper said...

I have convinced everyone who has not drunk of the Kool aid (and they are beyond hope).

Kevin said...

I've read that liberal reporters refrained from almost any criticism of Obama since they didn't want to be viewed as racist.

Same with comedians. As we saw with the whole Baltimore farce, you're not even allowed to call out a rodent infestation if non-whites live in the vicinity. At least, if you're not a Democrat.

And we'll see the same thing from Democrats all the time in 2020. If the candidate is not white or is a woman, any criticism levied against them will be racist or sexist. Criticize Mayor Pete's position on education and you'll be labeled homophobic. That's just their playbook.

I hold the view that coddling women is sexist, and coddling certain people because of their skin color is racist.

bmiller said...

I have convinced everyone who has not drunk of the Kool aid (and they are beyond hope).

You've partially convinced me. We need a new Special Counselor to get to the bottom of the "Sharpie" conspiracy! Bueller this time rather than Mueller.

World of Facts said...

One Brow said...

"Those of us that are simply polite (aka PC) don't need to walk around on eggshells, because we generally avoid saying bad things about most people. It's the people who love to say bad things that feel like they need to walk on the eggshells."

Don't get me wrong, it's very easy to not be an asshole! But I don't think just being "polite" is the same as being on the more "extreme" side of political correctness (if there's even such a thing). But the study is just pointing out some tendencies that I do notice from the Left, both online and because I am living in a Left-leaning region of the country.

Personally, I have seen someone suddenly look really worried after saying "you guys" instead of "you folks", some debate erupting because a white guy pointed out how an emoji of a black princess looked like a girl at work (who happened to love to dress as a princess...), some guy shooting a gun on the street in front of our office described as tall, skinny, wearing a gray hoodie, blue baggy pants, dark brown hair, but never the ethnicity... guess why.

Online, you can read about a Netflix executive being fired for using the N-word while discussing what should be done to fight racism portrayed on Netflix, the founder of Oculus being ousted out from Facebook for supporting Trump, comedians not approaching certain topics because they might be mistaken as racists, sexists, bigots.

But! Again, don't get me wrong. Even though it's a real "problem", I don't think it's a big one at all. It's mostly a distraction the Right likes to use to pretend they are the oppressed ones. They complain about identity politics when they are the biggest users of identity politics. They can't distinguish between appropriate criticism of public figures and attacks that are clearly motivated by racial resentments.

For instance...

Legion said:
" . If the candidate is not white or is a woman, any criticism levied against them will be racist or sexist. Criticize Mayor Pete's position on education and you'll be labeled homophobic. "

That is such BS. That's exactly what I am talking about. Gross exaggeration of the situation and completely misunderstanding of what constitute valid criticism. Legion is the one doing exactly what he is complaining about. Instead of just criticizing policies, he has to bring up race and gender. Instead of understanding the nuances between gender identity and biological sex, he whines that he is labeled transphobic.

Look at the comment from 2 days ago:
" The "transgender" movement is almost as insane as..."

He literally called a group of people trying to defend the rights of a marginalized population as insane.
Then he wonders why he might be called transphobic by some...

Starhopper said...

Here's what I'm doing when not bloviating on the internet:

Here.

I'm the guy on the far left of the picture, holding up one end of the "Veterans for Peace" banner, in the article "No Weapons of War in Baltimore".

So you see that I not only talk the talk - I walk the walk!

bmiller said...

The one with the dress? Better be careful where you walk the walk dressed like that! ;-)

World of Facts said...

One Brow,
Isn't that last comment from bmiller a good example? Is it offensive? Could be to some... In some circles, it could trigger outrage, charges of sexism, victim-blaming, insensitivity, trans-phobia. I just think it's a dumb old-school joke... one that makes you go oh grandpa...

bmiller said...

Hey. He's got nice legs.

World of Facts said...

Still a dumb joke bmiller...

In other news, just ran into this article on Facebook and thought that was an interesting read in the context of this thread:
https://newsroom.haas.berkeley.edu/study-shows-the-social-benefits-of-political-incorrectness/

"In fact, conservatives are just as likely to be offended by politically incorrect speech when it’s used to describe groups they care about, such as evangelicals or poor whites."

"politically incorrect statements make a person appear significantly colder, and because they appear more convinced of their beliefs, they may also appear less willing to engage in crucial political dialogue."

bmiller said...

Someone is assuming my pronouns. That's pretty offensive in my book.

bmiller said...

And he does have nice legs.

Starhopper said...

If I had known how cold it was going to be that day, I would have worn long pants.

Notice, not one rat in sight, and we're in the very center of Baltimore!

bmiller said...

Notice, not one rat in sight, and we're in the very center of Baltimore!

You would have seen one if you had stood outside of Elijah Cummings office.

And you don't fool me. You told us to look at that picture so you could show off your legs.

Starhopper said...

Hmm.. It would appear that bmiller has a thing for guys' legs... not that there's anything wrong with that!

bmiller said...

not that there's anything wrong with that!

For reference

bmiller said...

But, but The Bueller Report!

One Brow said...

Hugo said...
Isn't that last comment from bmiller a good example? Is it offensive? Could be to some... In some circles, it could trigger outrage, charges of sexism, victim-blaming, insensitivity, trans-phobia. I just think it's a dumb old-school joke... one that makes you go oh grandpa...

It's a dumb, old-school whose humor relies on the notion of it being terrible for a man to be mistaken for a woman.

In my experience, most of the time when someone screws up, they go one of to ways. They either offer an apology where they acknowledge they messed up, or they offer a notpology where they say they were sorry someone's feelings were hurt, but they shouldn't be blamed because of their pure intentions (because comedy, just guys, whatever). People who engage in the former usually see these things pass by fairly quickly, unless it seems to be a habit.

World of Facts said...

"whose humor relies on the notion of it being terrible for a man to be mistaken for a woman."

Ya, that part is what is offensive. I think I was downplaying that too much! Thanks for pointing that out.

"People who engage in the former"

Right, and comedians can apologize too, if they crossed a line by mistake. Things change too, so they need to adapt. Everybody does.

I do wonder though whether apologizing is even possible in some cases though. Both as in "sometimes it's just too bad" and "people won't accept any apology".

The former is obvious. There are things that are just so bad that I don't see why we should forgive and forget. Maybe after a while, depending on the circumstances. But anyway, that's obvious to most I guess.

The latter is trickier. It seems that certain online "mobs", for lack of a better word, want to try to destroy people's careers over mere disagreements. No apology helps with such people. I think they are a minority thankfully, but a very vocal one.

Kevin said...

The latter is trickier. It seems that certain online "mobs", for lack of a better word, want to try to destroy people's careers over mere disagreements. No apology helps with such people. I think they are a minority thankfully, but a very vocal one.

The mistake was probably when the first people or businesses who got hit with an angry online mob capitulated and apologized, which only encouraged further angry online mobs.

Apologies should only be when someone makes a mistake or causes an unintended consequence. They should never be the result of pressure from vindictive crybabies.

bmiller said...

What's really funny is watching humorless leftists pontificating on what is funny.

World of Facts said...

humorless leftists?

Kevin said...

Obviously anecdotal, but it has been my experience that the left in general is less inclined to make fun of itself or to view mockery of itself as funny. I'm certainly not aware of any SNL skits or late night shows or Onion articles that mock the left with anything even remotely approaching the enthusiasm they hit conservatives with. And my left-wing friends don't take kindly to internet memes mocking their side despite constantly posting humorous attacks on conservatives.

And Obama? Good luck finding THAT mocking comedy from anyone on the left.

Starhopper said...

The comment about "humorless leftists" confuses me. I'm sure you (bmiller and/or legion - you're interchangeable) consider the late light hosts such as Colbert, Seth Meyers, Trevor Noah, Jimmy Fallon, or Jimmy Kimmel to be leftists, but they are all screamingly funny.

Perhaps you mean they don't lampoon Democrats as much as Republicans? But that may be merely a defense mechanism - one laughs at Republicans to keep from crying over the harm they are doing our country.

World of Facts said...

What bizarre comment Legion, but at least you start with the fact that it's just anecdotal. I.e. it's just your biased perception. I mean, everybody is 'less inclined to make fun of itself or to view mockery of itself as funny', that's just human nature. Who prefers self-derision over laughing at other things and people?

It's so absurd to pretend that a certain group of people is less inclined than the other. Plus, the Right doesn't even have much comedians in the first place, so it's hard to compare, and Liberals make tons of sketches that laugh at literally anything, everything. Including self-derision, including Obama. If you had watched the John Oliver clip I posted for instance, you'll see him laugh at himself. He does that all the time...

Starhopper said...

You've got a point there, Hugo. If you guys ever met me in person, you'd know that 90% of my humor is self deprecating. I get more fun laughing at myself than anything else.

(The other 10% is mostly laughing at other peoples' taste in movies.)

Kevin said...

Perhaps you mean they don't lampoon Democrats as much as Republicans?

That's what I mean. I appreciate good jokes at my side's expense when they are warranted, but it does get old that the outlets I mentioned ignore the countless opportunities to shred Democrats and progressives.

Hugo mentioned mocking Obama - I've not seen this a single time on the Onion, late night shows, or SNL. Not once. I'd be happy for examples.

Also the right does have comedians - Babylon Bee is like the Onion, Studio C is like SNL, and there are conservative satirists and comedians in plenty (just not late night shows). And one thing I've seen is that they are far more likely to mock their own side.

Again, I'd be more than happy to see counterexamples.

Kevin said...

But that may be merely a defense mechanism - one laughs at Republicans to keep from crying over the harm they are doing our country.

This may be true, since the right feels the same way about the left and no doubt that accounts for some of the mockery. But again, I can find far more examples of the right lampooning itself when it deserves it than I can the left mocking itself at appropriate times (and boy oh boy do they have endless material to choose from). So that's not a sufficient explanation.

World of Facts said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
World of Facts said...

I don't get your point Legion. You both state that it's just anecdotal, just a gut feeling, but also conclude that there appear to be sort of clear tendency.

And now we just need to prove you wrong? Why? It's just some random cheap shot...

I could call you fat because conservatives tend to be more fat, in my experience, and that would be just as bizarre and useless...

But I was curious anyway and just googled The Onion and Obama for instance. Bunch of results... not funny enough for you? Not laughing "at" him enough for you? Too subtle?

Oh ya because that's another thing actually...

I heard a researcher who explored humour, on a podcast recently, and she was explained how Liberals tend to like jokes that are implicit, where the end is untold; Conservatives tend to like more over-the-top humour, more explicit. Just averages of course, not a rule.

That might explain the different perception of what's funny and about what.

bmiller said...

My comment was directed at those who might be offended by my lame joke about Starhopper's legs.
It could have been criticized because, well just look at those legs. Nothing funny about those things!

But instead, today we have to worry about who might be offended:
"In some circles, it could trigger outrage, charges of sexism, victim-blaming, insensitivity, trans-phobia."
"It's a dumb, old-school whose humor relies on the notion of it being terrible for a man to be mistaken for a woman."

Starhopper, responded with an equally political incorrect joke, but gee, no commentary....hmmm. But leave that aside.

I wasn't referring to comedians, left or right, that actually do have a sense of humor (otherwise they wouldn't be comedians). I was referring to those who want to decide for everyone what is funny and what is not allowed. Comedy Nazis.

I don't think any American comedian thinks they have the space they used to have to joke about what they find funny, and it's the humorless leftists that are closing that space not the people of the right.

World of Facts said...

Yep bmiller, some on the Left are becoming more like the Right. Because let's not forget that puritans, the real snowflakes, are religious conservatives that have been complaining about sacred things we cannot laugh about, or even talked about too much. There are some elements of the Left that are like that too, now. So they're catching unfortunately...

But your specific joke can be analyzed om its own and I have to admit that it was worse than I initially thought. One Brow made a good specific point about it.

Instead of looking back, you take the approach he mentioned: claim it's the others fault for finding it offensive.

I.e. you don't give a shit about the details. Fine.

bmiller said...

Like I said.

Humorless leftists can only find outrage in jokes, not humor. It's why Seinfeld won't do college campuses.

Thanks for demonstrating my point.

Starhopper said...

Hey everybody, the joke was directed at me, and I laughed. And yes, bmiller is correct, I responded with an equally "politically incorrect" joke. I can only hope he also found no offence in it. Some people need to lighten up here! Our outrage needs to be directed at those who allow the Port of Baltimore to be used to ship arms to Saudi Arabia, in defiance of the expressed bipartisan will of Congress.

Good thing fall is coming. At future demonstrations, I'll be wearing long pants!

World of Facts said...

Do neither of you not understand the difference between personally outrage and concerns that this might be crossing a line in terms of tasteless humour for others? And didn't you get one of the points from One Brow's comment: jokes reveal certain assumptions and opinions. Go read it again, you'll see what he rightfully pointed out as problematic...

Let me give you a parallel: I am a huge South Park fan. I have this show for years and re-discovered it as an adult years after the first seasons who aired when I was a teenager. This show is edgy, laughs at anything, and does go way too far for some. That's why I would never recommend it to certain people; I would actively recommend not to watch it if I know someone might be offended. But am I ever offended? Even when they laugh at Canadians for instance? Of course not; I wouldn't love the show otherwise! And again, I can also pinpoint certain jokes that I think went too far.

Don't you see the differences among all of these things?

World of Facts said...

Let me add this:
Some people laugh at jokes even if they know they are inappropriate.
Some people laugh at inappropriate jokes even if they don't know they are.

I try to not be in the second bucket; but I can't help being in the first one sometimes...

bmiller said...

I can only hope he also found no offence in it.

No offence taken. Even though it was a obviously "legist" jab..sniff, sniff.

Kevin said...

I don't get your point Legion. You both state that it's just anecdotal, just a gut feeling, but also conclude that there appear to be sort of clear tendency.

It's not "just a gut feeling", since I never said that. I said in my experience, people on the left are less prone to appreciate humor when it is at their expense politically. Note I never said "this is how it is", I simply gave my experience, which happened to align with what bmiller was saying.


And now we just need to prove you wrong? Why?

If you don't want to provide any counterexamples, that's fine with me. My experience that those on the left have a harder time taking a joke at their expense is hardly something that needs disproven.


I could call you fat because conservatives tend to be more fat, in my experience, and that would be just as bizarre and useless...

That would be bizarre and useless, since it has absolutely nothing to do with anything said in the thread thus far. But if the topic was about who exercises more or eats healthier, and you couldn't think of a single thin conservative, then your experience would be worth mentioning. Personal experience isn't always invalid, or no one would know anything.


But I was curious anyway and just googled The Onion and Obama for instance. Bunch of results... not funny enough for you? Not laughing "at" him enough for you? Too subtle?

The whole point was the "at". Onion mentions Obama many times, but I've never seen one at his expense. And plenty of the Onion's articles that hit conservatives are funny, but as an organization I hold the Babylon Bee in much higher regard simply because they have the integrity to nail both sides with equal abandon when it is warranted. I appreciate objectivity.


That might explain the different perception of what's funny and about what.

I have a schizophrenic sense of humor. The more subtle, the funnier, but also the more absurd, the funnier.

World of Facts said...

Legion,

Stating that some assertion is based just on your personal experience is just gut feeling. You have no evidence of some objectively measurable trend; your "gut" tells you that your experiences may be extrapolated. Not that your super firm about it, but it's just bizarre to keep insisting on some point about humor that you admit is nothing more than personal anecdotes...

The fat people comment is an analogy. I'm not actually making it!

One Brow said...

Legion of Logic said...
And Obama? Good luck finding THAT mocking comedy from anyone on the left.

Key and Peele had a regular skit mocking Obama. I've seen him mocked in music videos, occasional routines, etc.

One Brow said...

bmiller said...
Starhopper, responded with an equally political incorrect joke, but gee, no commentary....hmmm.

Starhopper's reply referred the incorrectness within itself, hanging a lampshade on it's own incorrectness. I felt no need to confirm what he had already acknowledged.

I was referring to those who want to decide for everyone what is funny and what is not allowed.

Last I check, no one was proposing laws about what humor should and should not be allowed. They are all using the marketplace and Constitutionally approved protests to express their opinion. Don't you believe in capitalism?

One Brow said...

The Onion making fun of Obama:

https://politics.theonion.com/obama-sinks-family-savings-into-developing-presidential-1820303326

bmiller said...

Starhopper,

Thank you for promising to wear pants at your next get together. From what I've seen that is not a given at lefty parades. ;-)

Starhopper said...

Hey, they don't call me Sponge Bob for nothing!

Kevin said...

The Onion making fun of Obama

What personality trait or political decision or belief of Obama's was being mocked here? I didn't see it.

But I did find this one that was definitely mocking him, so I now have my one example!

Kevin said...

Stating that some assertion is based just on your personal experience is just gut feeling. You have no evidence of some objectively measurable trend; your "gut" tells you that your experiences may be extrapolated.

I made no assertion and my "gut" did not tell me that any trend could be extrapolated from my experience. I simply said that was my experience. Does it in fact demonstrate a trend? Nope, but it is certainly aligned with bmiller's comment. If there was such a trend, my experience would certainly reflect it.

I forgot you like to psychoanalyze people. Keep practicing, one of these days you'll get it right! :)

World of Facts said...

Haha ya it is indeed fun to psychoanalyze people, even when it fails!

For instance, it's interesting to see how you don't give a shit about how stating "it has been my experience that the left in general is less inclined to make fun of itself or to view mockery of itself as funny" is equivalent to "my gut tells me the left in general is..." Keep practicing logic, one of these days you might have the appropriate name right! :)

Also, since you said: "What personality trait or political decision or belief of Obama's was being mocked here? I didn't see it." it means that when Right-Winger make fun of people it's not as much about personality trait or political decision or belief... you do realize that right? And I would agree. That's why Steven Crowder laughed at an angry little queer Mexican, or Trump laughed at a disabled reporter, etc... but obviously, the Left does that too. Is it as much? I don't know. But why don't you tell us what your personal experience is? That should be informative!

One more hypothesis, let's assume that Liberals do, in fact, laugh at personality trait, political decisions, and beliefs more; could it be that this is because they are, on average, more educated, richer, and more informed? One of these days, you might realize that your side is not as bright as the other... on average of course, not you personally :)

Kevin said...

For instance, it's interesting to see how you don't give a shit about how stating "it has been my experience that the left in general is less inclined to make fun of itself or to view mockery of itself as funny" is equivalent to "my gut tells me the left in general is..."

That would be because those are two different things, and not equivalent. That's why I open with the fact that it is anecdotal. "In my [anecdotal] experience, the left in general [that I have personally spoken with or observed] is less inclined to make fun of itself or to view mockery of itself as funny." That's much different than "my gut tells me the left in general is..." One is a statement of experience that I shared, the other is an attempt to extrapolate that I did not share.


"What personality trait or political decision or belief of Obama's was being mocked here? I didn't see it." it means that when Right-Winger make fun of people it's not as much about personality trait or political decision or belief... you do realize that right?

No, I do not realize that. Is this your gut telling you what the right in general is like?


But why don't you tell us what your personal experience is? That should be informative!

Why do you consider personal experience to be invalid? Who is allowed to speak of their experience, and in what context?


One of these days, you might realize that your side is not as bright as the other

There are two broad categories of idiots in my experience. The first is the sort who immediately descends into drug use, crime, and incessant destructive behavior, and doesn't seem to understand or care that it doesn't have to be that way.

The second is the type of person who thinks because he has a college degree that he is wise. Some of the biggest fools I've ever witnessed or encountered were college educated, yet their book smarts availed them not at all. Complete idiots.

Guess which political side in my experience most often falls into the second category, mistaking education with wisdom or intelligence? Hint: it's not the right!

World of Facts said...

" the left in general [that I have personally spoken with or observed]"
Haha, you are truly incapable of fixing even the tiniest mistake! Instead of just pointing out that you were wrong to write "in general", because that's not what you meant. you twist it into meaning something else completely. Look, I knew what you meant, it's not hard to see. But I was trying to make YOU see why it was badly phrased. You just can’t! Ego, or idiocy, I will never know; my psychoanalysis skills aren't good enough :)

"No, I do not realize that."
Ah I see, you didn't get the point... never mind. And here, I am sorry, but you're just being stupid. You did not even realize what the implications of your comment was after I point it out, as a joke...

"The second is the type of person who thinks because he has a college degree that he is wise. Some of the biggest fools I've ever witnessed or encountered were college educated, yet their book smarts availed them not at all. Complete idiots."

Oh ya, for sure! I have a good friend of mine who is in Mensa (High IQ society) and there are people in his group who are huge Trump supporters! Can you imagine!?

bmiller said...

Legion,

Do you know what the joke supposed to be in the Onion article about Obama coming up with a game?

Was he being mocked for saying he was poor and then buying a $15 million dollar mansion on Martha's Vineyard? (that BTW will be under water in 'checks card' 10 years due to global warming)

Kevin said...

Haha, you are truly incapable of fixing even the tiniest mistake! Instead of just pointing out that you were wrong to write "in general", because that's not what you meant. you twist it into meaning something else completely. Look, I knew what you meant, it's not hard to see. But I was trying to make YOU see why it was badly phrased. You just can’t! Ego, or idiocy, I will never know; my psychoanalysis skills aren't good enough :)

I said exactly what I meant to say, and have reaffirmed it many times now. I was not wrong to write "in general" about my experience - that is allowed, after all - but you are certainly wrong in trying to twist it into something I did not say, especially when I opened with the fact it was anecdotal - a very good indication that it is not to be taken as an extrapolation. That you refuse to accept it when I've explained it many times now should be making you wonder if you have that "ego or idiocy" choice pointed in the wrong direction. Particularly since you claim to know what I meant the whole time, which makes this whole thing rather pointless.


Ah I see, you didn't get the point... never mind. And here, I am sorry, but you're just being stupid.

I got the point, I simply disagreed with you.


I have a good friend of mine who is in Mensa (High IQ society) and there are people in his group who are huge Trump supporters! Can you imagine!?

Sadly, I don't have to imagine it.

Kevin said...

Do you know what the joke supposed to be in the Onion article about Obama coming up with a game?

I don't think there is an actual joke being made, but yours is as good an explanation as any if there is one. My best guess is the author is a gaming geek and an Obama supporter, so he combined the two into an absurd scenario. Certainly amusing, but not the sort of humor I was talking about.

One Brow said...

Legion of Logic said...
What personality trait or political decision or belief of Obama's was being mocked here? I didn't see it.

His commitment of capital (in the article, personal instead of political) to ideas that he has no reason to believe are genuinely popular, and seem unwieldy an unlikely to catch on.

One Brow said...

bmiller said...
Was he being mocked for saying he was poor and then buying a $15 million dollar mansion on Martha's Vineyard? (that BTW will be under water in 'checks card' 10 years due to global warming)

My understanding is that most of the property is a few feet above sea level. Obama will be fine.

World of Facts said...

Legion,

"Particularly since you claim to know what I meant the whole time, which makes this whole thing rather pointless."

It's always pointless; we're in the 200+ comments of an obscure blog. I hope you never think otherwise.

But anyway... still fun and informative! It's a great way to bounce ideas and statements with others.

Now, we do disagree on this:
"I was not wrong to write "in general" about my experience"
Yes, you were. Grammatically, you were. That's why I said it's "tiny".

Looking at this again:
"that the left in general [that I have personally spoken with or observed] is"
It doesn't matter what comes before or after, that's logically wrong.

Either it's a contradiction, or a redefinition of "in general" to mean the exact opposite, which you put in brackets later. It just doesn't fit your sentence.

And we know which one it is in your case. You obviously didn't mean to contradict yourself. So what happened?

"Obviously anecdotal, but it has been my experience that ..."

Ok, you are about to describe something subjective, what you have observed, experienced. There is a clause, another statement, coming after the word 'that'...

"...my experience that the left in general is less inclined to..."

Don't you see the grammatical error right away?

And you know it's wrong because you added brackets to clarify what you didn't write properly. But instead of pointing out that the original sentence is wrong, you add things next to it, as if your writing was correct on its own. It wasn't. That's the point I was trying to make you see... Again, tiny, and doesn't matter, but that was just the wrong way to put it in the first place. So freaking long to just point out some detail like that when you just won't see it...

Kevin said...

Welcome back Hugo!

World of Facts said...

We do have a similar sense of humor Legion!

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