Monday, June 11, 2018

The measure of a conservative, or a liberal

Why is the measure of conservatism, or liberalism, a matter of loyalty to or opposition to Donald Trump? In my state a stalwart conservative senator named Jeff Flake is considered by many to be a phony conservative because he finds Trump dangerous. Trey Gowdy, the arch-conservative representative from South Carolina who pushed the criticism of Hillary Clinton for Benghazi as hard as anybody, is now regarded as a fake conservative because he won't agree that the FBI was engaged in spying on the Trump campaign for political purposes. 
Why? Donald Trump actually takes the liberal Democrat position on the war in Iraq, he thinks it was wrong and that we were deceived into going in there. Do conservatives all now think that that the leftists were right about Iraq and George W. Bush was wrong? 
Political conviction and personal loyalty have to be different from one another. Otherwise, we can't really have a democracy. 

52 comments:

Legion of Logic said...

I've heard a few people say things to this effect, but by and large most conservatives I know are wary of Trump due to his unpredictable nature and, like me, would rather have had a Ted Cruz or a Rand Paul in office instead of Trump.

To those falling in behind Trump, they do have a point in that congressional Republicans are absolutely worthless. At least Trump is doing things.

Starhopper said...

It's comments like Legion's that make me wonder whether people will ever truly understand each other. I simply cannot fathom how any intelligent person (as Legion obviously is) can like anything Trump is doing. So saying "at least he's doing something" is to me a clear negative, and nothing to put in the plus column.

"Well, the Unibomber is clearly crazy, but at least he's doing something!"

Legion of Logic said...

I was utterly unhappy with Obama as a president, but even he did things I approved of. If there is a president that one cannot find a single thing of which to approve, then the problem most likely isn't with the president in question. Are you saying you can't find a single good thing about the Trump presidency? Not one single thing?

Besides, my comment was more explaining the position of the people who have put their hopes of conservative reform than it was explaining my own position. For all Trump's flaws, they still think he's more likely to do something they like than Republicans are.

To speak for myself, there are policy things Trump has done that I like, there are things he's done that I don't like, and I don't like or trust Trump at all.

Legion of Logic said...

Edit: should have said "put their hopes of conservative reform in Trump"

Starhopper said...

I gotta be honest here. I cannot think of even the smallest thing that Trump has either said or done that I can approve of in any fashion whatsoever. He is the closest thing I have ever encountered to pure, unadulterated evil in all my 66 years on this planet. Without the slightest exaggeration, I imagine that the demons themselves could not be that much worse.

Dave Duffy said...

My favorite was when Joe Lieberman who in 2000 ran as the Dem V.P. and then in 2008, after getting his head on straight, endorsed John McCain over the future President Obama. He even spoke at the Rep convention about the demise of his own party. Now that was great fun! Lots of crazy commentary followed that speech. Of course, I don't remember any hand-wringing about the demise of democracy back that. That's for people who don't get their way.

Starhopper, who loves his white nationalist kin, thinks the Donald is pure evil. It's all about the loyalty--family, country, party.

Starhopper said...

"who loves his white nationalist kin"

Huh?!?!?!? Не понимаю.

Legion of Logic said...

"He is the closest thing I have ever encountered to pure, unadulterated evil in all my 66 years on this planet."

I'm hoping you're only talking about presidents here. Because I have personally encountered far worse people than Donald Trump, and I'm a little over half your age.

Legion of Logic said...

Dave,

I think you got the wrong guy. I can't recall Starhopper ever saying anything white supremacist.

Starhopper said...

Yeah, just presidents.

I had a boss once (back in the 1980s) who was the personification of evil. Some years later, I learned he was doing time for rape. Did not surprise me.

Dave Duffy said...

Starhopper, your comment on June 10, 2018 7:20 PM here at Victor's blog:

'"family can sting"'

"No, we love each other too much for that. My family ranges from xenophobic white nationalism to far-left quasi-communism. When I'm with my kin, I think of myself as a centrist."

--perhaps I didn't interpret your comment correctly about love.

Joe Hinman said...

on Metacrock's blog secular out post God cannot bestow meaning I argue what do you mean? I argue God crates a context in which creation is meaningful, the act of creation, einga creature makes the creator's idea of meaning meaningful,

"God Bestows Meaning"


Joe Hinman said...

Legion of Logic said...
I've heard a few people say things to this effect, but by and large most conservatives I know are wary of Trump due to his unpredictable nature and, like me, would rather have had a Ted Cruz or a Rand Paul in office instead of Trump.

that is meaningless because they will always vote publican they cloud nominate Satan they would say we are weary but we can;t have Hillary

Legion of Logic said...

"that is meaningless because they will always vote publican they cloud nominate Satan they would say we are weary but we can;t have Hillary"

Yes that is human nature. Democrats would vote for a zombie apocalypse over Trump, so long as the zombies wore donkey shirts.

Starhopper said...

"Yes that is human nature."

I disagree. I'm old enough to remember a time when people of both parties, even if they disagreed with the current president, at least tolerated and respected him. And "crossover" voting was common. There were such things as Reagan Democrats and Johnson Republicans. I can't recall anyone ever saying "Not my president!" about the first Bush, Reagan, Carter, or Ford.

It's perhaps a bit much to put all the blame on a single individual, but the current climate of die-on-this-hill hyperpartisanship seems directly traceable to Newt Gingrich's time as Speaker of the House. Even if there's no cause and effect here, that's when it all began.

And don't forget other countries where figures from differing parties get along just fine. Think John Major, Tony Blair, or David Cameron. only a few, inconsequential fringe elements of British society could be accused of hating any of them.

So, no - it's not "human nature" because there are times and places when/where blind partisanship plays little part in a healthy political discourse.

Legion of Logic said...

Well I started paying attention to politics around 2004, so I guess for me that's the way it's always been. The right despised Clinton, the left despised Bush, the right despised Obama, the left despises Trump. You're right though, I guess the emergence of specialized media sources and the internet spreading them is when things got so polarized, in the 90s.

I'm curious if the trend of polarization will continue beyond Trump, if this is the new norm.

Chad Handley said...

"If there is a president that one cannot find a single thing of which to approve, then the problem most likely isn't with the president in question. Are you saying you can't find a single good thing about the Trump presidency? Not one single thing?"

So what? You can find positive things here and there about any historical leader. Hitler rather famously kept the trains running on time.

Chad Handley said...

"Democrats would vote for a zombie apocalypse over Trump, so long as the zombies wore donkey shirts."

Personally, I wouldn't care if the zombie were wearing an elephant shirt.

I'd take any Republican over Trump, living or dead or walking dead.

Hugo Pelland said...

Even when trying to be charitable, it is really hard to find good things to say about Trump. Take 2 recent examples:

1) Trade. What he says makes no sense. He wants to do what's right for America. Great, good intentions. But then he wants trade wars, which are aweful for the USA and its allies. It's supposed to be a tool for convincing another country to do something, like a strike in a way, where a bit of pain is worth it to get something else. Plus, he contradicts himself by both asking a country like Canads to remove all tariffs, or else he will increase tariffs more; he's basically saying to do complete free trade or else no free trade. Huh?

2) North Korea. I really wanted to like that one. Obama apparently ignored Denis Rodman's plea to just talk to Kim, so it could be better with Trump, it could lead to something. But no. They signed some meaningless paper and only gave the Supreme Leader the validity he was looking for. Trump even applauded the love his people show him. WTF? Trump literally said that they look happy! How can he be so soft on that dictatorship regime that's been starving its population?

Hugo Pelland said...

Actually, to add on that last point, here's the big irony: Republicans or other Obama haters were complaining about the Iran deal, right? Yet, Obama clearly stated that this was "not" a deal built on trust. It was a mutual agreement to continue monitoring Iran's nuclear very closely so that they can use it to build electricity generators, while progressively opening Iran to trade with the world. Trump goes to talk to North Korea, agrees that we should reduce the US military presence in the region (so much for keeping our forces up-to-speed and prepared) and puts his "trust" in Kim Jong Un, as if things would just work now that Trump smiled back at him. He even tweeted that the North Korean threat is over FFS; how delusional is that!?

Legion of Logic said...

"So what? You can find positive things here and there about any historical leader. Hitler rather famously kept the trains running on time."

And I find the comparison as ludicrous as when people tried comparing Obama to Stalin.

Hugo Pelland said...

Everything wrong with Fox News in one video
Exaggerated title but I thought this was relevant to this thread...

Starhopper said...

Thanks for that, Hugo. Spot on. Talk about "fake news"!

Chad Handley said...

I wasn't comparing Trump to Hitler, pretty goddamn obviously. I'm just saying it's ludicrous to say that if a person can't find a single good thing to say about a leader, then there's something wrong with the person, not the leader. Some leader's overall influence is so overwhelmingly bad, it takes a particularly craven and morally compromised husk of a man to start trying to pick out the good bits here and there.

"Sure, Trump is permanently damaging nearly every aspect of Democracy and the presidency, sure he JUST TODAY coddled up to a dictator (a persistently odd habit of his - he might not be a dictator, but all of his favorite people are), called the press 'the greatest enemy of the country,' but I like what he's doing with my taxes so he gets a pass."

Yuck.

Hugo Pelland said...

"called the press 'the greatest enemy of the country'"

The worst part is that this is neither rare nor consequential anymore. One of the worst damage of Democracy that Chad mentioned.

W.LindsayWheeler said...

Blogger Starhopper said...
I gotta be honest here. I cannot think of even the smallest thing that Trump has either said or done that I can approve of in any fashion whatsoever. He is the closest thing I have ever encountered to pure, unadulterated evil in all my 66 years on this planet. Without the slightest exaggeration, I imagine that the demons themselves could not be that much worse.


I gotta be honest here. I CANNOT think of even the smallest thing that Obama has either said or done that I can approve of in any fashion whatsoever. He is the closest thing I have ever encountered to pure, unadulterated evil in all my 58 years on this planet. Without the slightest exaggeration, I imagine that the demons themselves could not be that much worse. LOL

It gets much worse. Obama was NEVER a Natural Born Citizen! Yet the whole Democrat Party voted for him. His presidency is null and void. To be a Natural Born Citizen--one has to have BOTH parents as American citizens. Obama's father was a Kenyan citizen with a British passport. Obama was not a Natural Born Citizen!

To heck with you Starhopper. Trump is a Godsend. Trump is an American Patriot---and your god Obama was a Commie flunkie.

Joe Hinman said...

To heck with you Starhopper. Trump is a Godsend. Trump is an American Patriot---and your god Obama was a Commie flunkie.

Zeig Trump!the future belogs to us! the leavens of Lynden are lefy and green...

Joe Hinman said...

"Sure, Trump is permanently damaging nearly every aspect of Democracy and the presidency, sure he JUST TODAY coddled up to a dictator (a persistently odd habit of his - he might not be a dictator, but all of his favorite people are), called the press 'the greatest enemy of the country,' but I like what he's doing with my taxes so he gets a pass."

>>>>you just summed up the attitude of the average Texan

Joe Hinman said...

LL:Yes that is human nature. Democrats would vote for a zombie apocalypse over Trump, so long as the zombies wore donkey shirts.

what's wromg with my donkey shirt? As for zobmies,what are you gonna do if you live in a place like Texas? Zombies improve the neighborhood an brig up the gpa of local school

Legion of Logic said...

"what's wromg with my donkey shirt? As for zobmies,what are you gonna do if you live in a place like Texas? Zombies improve the neighborhood an brig up the gpa of local school"

You shouldn't talk about Hispanics that way!

Starhopper said...

Having spent some time in Texas, I think Joe was just referring generically to any non-Texan. Believe me, anything's an improvement!

Legion of Logic said...

I assumed it was a general bash at conservatives. The Texans I have met have been quite pleasant and reasonable.

Starhopper said...

All kidding aside, I have to agree. It's Texas I don't care for.

Way too big, way too hot, and wa-a-a-y too dusty. I spent one summer there in the Army (in the 1970s), and later traveled there 3 or 4 times on business. I don't understand how the entire population doesn't die of either boredom or heat stroke.

Did like the Pedernales Valley (where the LBJ Ranch is), however. Quite beautiful.

W.LindsayWheeler said...

How many times do I have to tell you'all, that America is a Failed State. The Inspector General's report came out---586 pages. NO criminal referrals. Didn't even convene a Grand Jury---The Swamp protects the Swamp.

Democracy? It is a Liberal Mafia that runs the Media, the FBI, the DOJ, all the universities and colleges. And they protect their own.

Emails between FBI saying "Trump supporters are POS". Yeh, baby! Feeeeelll the Luv in the air.

America is totally devoid of Virtue. The four main virtues are Manliness, Righteousness, Sophrosyne (Untranslatable in English), and Prudence. Any of that going on in America? Hell NO. So society can exist without Virtue. This Inspector General report gives a pass to all those Deep State Swamp Creatures. No one going to jail. Clinton had a private server--unsecured; it was hacked; Deleted 33,000 emails under supoena; Bleached-bit her hard-drives; Smashed Blackberries; turned in ONE phone to the FBI WITHOUT the Sim card in it--------------------And she is still walking around.

Just Brilliant there ain't it And Prof. Reppert is crying about his democracy!

Did not Socrates and Plato tell you that Democracy is the Worst form of Government? Did not Aristotle list democracy as the worst form of government!

Today is the One year anniversary of Scalise getting shot by a Bernie Sanders supporter.

And we are all supposed to sing Kumb-ya-ya with Rodney King as to "Why can't we all come together"!

America is G-0-N-E. Gone. It's over folks.

We have a two-tier justice system. Justice for Trump----Clintons Walk. Comey walks. McCabe Walks. They all goin' to walk. While a Sailor who took six pictures on an old sub----spent a year in jail.

Let the Hate Roll on, folks. Let the Hate Roll on.

Hugo Pelland said...

"Let the Hate Roll on, folks. Let the Hate Roll on."

You're doing a great job at it.

But the USA is an amazing place, regardless of what people like you have to say. It's far from perfect, but also far from a failed state.

As an immigrant, I am proud to call this country home too.

Dave Duffy said...

Reading the comments here, I wonder if the reason so many hate President Trump is that he is able to out bullshit the bullshiters. As most people get nowhere with their bullshit and live and die in a meaningless life of bullshit, he became really successful at true bullshit. Envy.

Hugo Pelland said...

No Dave, that's ridiculous. It might mean that you're trying to rationalize his behavior, but I don't really know what you think. But Trump is not just a better bullshitter; he's much worse than that and I personally didn't think he would be that bad. I genuinely thought people were too worried. I was wrong. He is far worse than expected.

Joe Hinman said...

on Metacrock;s blog Madeleine Albright warns of encroaching fascism and Trump,


Joe Hinman said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Joe Hinman said...


Blogger Legion of Logic said...
"what's wromg with my donkey shirt? As for zobmies,what are you gonna do if you live in a place like Texas? Zombies improve the neighborhood an brig up the gpa of local school"

You shouldn't talk about Hispanics that way!

June 14, 2018 11:55 AM
Blogger Starhopper said...
Having spent some time in Texas, I think Joe was just referring generically to any non-Texan. Believe me, anything's an improvement!


the base of the state the majority that win the elections are gringo republicans, zombies are an improvement on that,Hispanics and liberals are far above that Yankees included

Joe Hinman said...

Grasshopper


Did like the Pedernales Valley (where the LBJ Ranch is), however. Quite beautiful.

you have to grow up here to appreciate how totally outpoint they are,and yet when you find an intellectual in Texas they are the best. We do have some,Ft,Wroth has some really world class art museums,C. Write Mills was from Texas, and is world class university, Charles Hartsnorne tauht there,

when Hartsnorne was about 95 a rumor started that he died. half the student body gathered in font of his house,colleges were giving speeches about how great he was,he cones walking up "what;s going on? who died?"

Joe Hinman said...

How many times do I have to tell you'all, that America is a Failed State. The Inspector General's report came out---586 pages. NO criminal referrals. Didn't even convene a Grand Jury---The Swamp protects the Swamp.


Jesus says don't call your brother a fool,I have to consider if a neo nazi is my brother?It does't even occur to the guy the report might be right, it disagrees with his party line so it must be wrong.


all benevolence that disproves his poison become evidence of it's veracity,so the best evidence for his view is evidence against it!

Truth is always the first victim.

Joe Hinman said...


Blogger Dave Duffy said...
Reading the comments here, I wonder if the reason so many hate President Trump is that he is able to out bullshit the bullshiters. As most people get nowhere with their bullshit and live and die in a meaningless life of bullshit, he became really successful at true bullshit. Envy.

what did I just write? Truth is the first victim. You have bought into the narrative,there is no truth, it's all bullshit. I do not live in a world of bullshit,I work very hard to know the difference,

Starhopper said...

I agree with Hugo's last comment. I was willing to give Trump a chance after his election, but starting with his appalling inauguration speech and continuing with absolutely everything he's said and done since then, he has been far, far worse than my my worst fears.

I am not exaggerating when I say I cannot think one one tiny thing he's done in his presidency that hasn't been an unqualified abomination. Can anyone here name just one good thing he's done? I quite honestly cannot.

Joe Hinman said...

the only thing that comes close to alright was pardon for the great grand mother but even she really was a drug dealer. Think of the inconsistency when you see what they are doing to the kids at the boarder!

Victor Reppert said...

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/commentary/ct-donald-trump-liar-20171208-story.html

W.LindsayWheeler said...

Obama said, "You can keep your doctor"

That was a Lie! The press did not care.

Obama said, "You can keep your plan".

That was a Lie! The press did not care.

Obama said, "Families will save money".

That was a Lie. The press did not care.

It was a video made in LA that caused the Assassination of the US Libyan Ambassador.

That was a Lie! The press did not care.

An astonishing 50 percent of Trump's lies were hurtful or disparaging. For example, he proclaimed that John Brennan, James Clapper and James Comey, all career intelligence or law enforcement officials, were "political hacks." From article linked by Prof. Reppert.

John Brennan, James Clapper and James Comey all together who are liberals, conspired to take away and stop the Presidency of Donald J. Trump. Comey used a Private email account for Government business!!! That is Against the Law. That is why he could not prosecute Hillary for using a private email server because he would be exposed! So he hid her crime. John Brennan sent Comey to President Trump to tell him about the most salacious aspect of the Steele Dossier, i.e. the urinating on the bed by prostitutes, to get a reaction from Trump to obstruct justice. Now, John Brennan, head of the CIA, is using opposition research paid by the Hillary Campaign? Is that not a political Hack? John Brennan used oppo research created by A FOREIGN SPY, Steele, who had Russian connections. That Steele Dossier is pure garbage.

James Clapper and James Comey leaked classified material to the press to hurt President Trump.

I also see that NO ONE answered the challenge about Barack Obama NOT being a Natural Born Citizen.

See, Hugo, that is why democracy is so bad. Aristotle notes that a Democracy is built on the General Will---NOT the Rule of Law. See that is why there is no Equal Justice in America, because it is all about "The Will" of the Left. They don't care for the Law; they have NO need for the Law. I don't need no stinkin' birth certificate. We all know that that one parent of the Obama was a Kenyan citizen. No one here has refuted that.

So Hugo---how does any society work when there is no acceptance of even the Constitution? Democracies are Ochlocracies---Rule of the Mob.

See, 39% of Colleges and Universities HAVE NO CONSERVATIVES at professorships. Liberals take control---and they exclude conservatives automatically. Just like in the FBI and the DOJ. Obama, Holder, Lynch PACKED, PACKED the FBI with their one Liberals. Stacked a mile high with their liberal friends.

America has become a totalitarian Liberal State. That is the Deep State. President Trump is undermining all of that now. Thank God For President Donald J. Trump.

And don't forget Prof. Reppert---there is Rush Limbaugh and his 24 million listeners, Sean Hannity, Dan Bongino, Joe Pags all radio. There is the Fox Channel. And for print there is The Federalist website and there is Breitbart news.

I suggest Prof. Reppert that you visit Breitbart news and read the comments to the articles---thousands for every article, because you and your friends are living in a B-U-B-B-L-E.

W.LindsayWheeler said...

On another point. You're an immigrant Hugo. So you might not know a lot about American History.

The Founding Fathers of America (FFofA) did NOT create a democracy! They hated democracy.

They created a "republic". But Not a true republic. But they created a constitution with only property owners that could vote.

See, practically all the names of forms of government were coined by the Greeks. They defined forms of government by their **dominant** factor--i.e. which social group controlled the government. A king hence monarchy. The aristocracy hence Aristocracy.

For Democracy, it is the Rule of the Poor. It is the Rule of the Vulgar class. Their only claim to fame is their quantity. They are numerous. That is their only claim to govern. What is the Vulgar class? Well, they are vulgar and they are low IQ, they have little or no education. That is the Rule of the poor. That is Democracy. Democracy produces craven individuals. They do whatever they want, when they want--regardless of Law. That is democracy. That is what Prof. Reppert wants. They want low IQ people to govern because they are easily deceived. Property owners not so much. They have education. They have some leisure and they own books. The poor generally don't own books.

The essence---Nature did NOT fit the Vulgar to rule. To Rule requires smarts, leisure, education and a bit of moxy. The King and the Aristocracy have that. The Warrior classes have that. The vulgar class does not. That is why Aristotle and Plato and Cicero all were promoters of Mixed government, i.e. true Republics. That is why America had a Senate, a House of Representatives. Tudor England was a True Republic. Sparta was a True Republic. Here is a little education for you, Classical definition of a republic 5th Rev.

That gives you the original definition of a republic. The Romans translated the Greek politiea, meaning "society", as "republic". And then shows how this worked through history and how the term "republic"'s definition was changed, transmorgified in the Renaissance and afterwords to mean democracy. It also has all the references of the FFofA on how they hated democracy.

W.LindsayWheeler said...

Here is Tom Fitton on the IG Report.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_QN_3xdfZY

Hugo Pelland said...

"And don't forget Prof. Reppert---there is Rush Limbaugh and his 24 million listeners, Sean Hannity, Dan Bongino, Joe Pags all radio. There is the Fox Channel. And for print there is The Federalist website and there is Breitbart news.

I suggest Prof. Reppert that you visit Breitbart news and read the comments to the articles---thousands for every article, because you and your friends are living in a B-U-B-B-L-E."

Sorry, I prefer InfoWars.

Joe Hinman said...

the depths of racism and oppression which pig Trump has plunged us, Führer Trump

Joe Hinman said...

May God have mercy on your souls. That's all that's left to say,