Sunday, April 15, 2018

Do you believe in American civil religion? Not me.

Discussed here.  

Civil religion, on the one hand, often refers to America's covenantal relationship with a divine Creator who promises blessings for the nation for fulfilling its responsibility to defend liberty and justice. While vaguely connected to Christianity, appeals to civil religion rarely refer to Jesus Christ or other explicitly Christian symbols. Christian nationalism, however, draws its roots from "Old Testament" parallels between America and Israel, who was commanded to maintain cultural and blood purity, often through war, conquest, and separatism. Unlike civil religion, historical and contemporary appeals to Christian nationalism are often quite explicitly evangelical, and consequently, imply the exclusion of other religious faiths or cultures.

140 comments:

Legion of Logic said...

I think the concept has been very damaging to Christianity.

W.LindsayWheeler said...

"....explicitly evangelical, and consequently, imply the exclusion of other religious faiths or cultures.""""

Yehhhh, that evil word "exclusion".

Isn't Heaven exclusionary? By its very nature? Only orthodox Christians in Heaven, right? Exclusion anybody? There are no other religions in heaven but Christianity.!

And that most evillll ""'Old Testament""". I like how modern Christians dismiss the """Old Testament""". I thought your precious Jesus said, "Man lives by EVERY word that proceeds out of the mouth of God". Did not St. Paul say "All Scripture is there for teaching and reproof?

Ohh, not if one is a modern Christian. The OT is passe and racist.

I find it difficult in finding this site Christian. And you are complaining about Christian nationalism? The Pot calling the Kettle black!?!?

bmiller said...

I wonder if anyone at Truthout is a Christian.

Joe Hinman said...

Legion of Logic said...
I think the concept has been very damaging to Christianity.

I agree LL

W.LindsayWheeler said...

From the link, "...sociologists Andrew L. Whitehead, Samuel L. Perry and Joseph O. Baker argue that voting for Trump "was, at least for many Americans, a symbolic defense of the United States' perceived Christian heritage."

Okay, the Truthout article talks about "nationalism" but the paper quoted talks about preserving America's Christian heritage.

....And that is evil, how?

St. Peter said "Supplement the Faith with Virtue". And yet in all my Christian experience, I have NEVER heard a sermon on Virtue from the Pulpit. I went to 12 years of Catholic schools and I never heard the word Virtue. The four main virtues are Manliness, Righteousness, Temperance, and Prudence.

How can one be a Christian without knowledge of the Virtues?

The one here important is the Virtue of Righteousness which is To righteousness it belongs to be ready to distribute according to desert, and to preserve ancestral customs and institutions and the established laws, and to tell the truth when interest is at stake, and to keep agreements. First among the claims of righteousness are our duties to the gods, then our duties to the spirits, then those to patrida [fatherland] and parents, then those to the departed; and among these claims is piety, which is either a part of righteousness or a concomitant of it. Righteousness is also accompanied by holiness and truth and loyalty and hatred of wickedness. V. 2-3 Loeb Classical Library. Aristotle, Athenian Constitution, Eudemian Ethics, Virtues and Vices. Vol. 285. pg 495.

uhhhhh, lookie there: "Preserve ancestral customs and institutions and the established laws". Okay, Homosexuality being wrong was the law of the land of America. Laws against abortion. Laws against spreading the Communist Manifesto in America. Laws against Miscegenation. The 1925 Nationalities Law was the law of America.

Now, what is my duty? to Multicultural Ideology? Or to my patrida and religion? And we are to hate wickedness.

I'm wondering when Multiculturalism became a religion. What I am supposed to follow? The dictates of the Virtue of Righteousness---therefore becoming Righteous, or the dictates of Marxist Multiculturalism---which makes someone unrighteous?

St. Peter is clear: The Faith must be supplemented by Virtue. Only the Righteous go to Heaven. The Unrighteous go to Hell.

Starhopper said...

Legion,

Allow me to add my thumbs up to your comment!

W.LindsayWheeler said...

LXX Lev. 19:19 "...thou shalt not let thy cattle gender one of a different kind, and thou shalt not sow thy vineyard with diverse seed".

What is the God speaking to? The Natural Order. This has nothing to do with Judaism. Bovine belong to the Natural Order. This speaks to *preserving*. To Preserve is a Good. When St. Paul uses the verse about muzzling the oxen and extrapolates that to paying the clergy, this verse speaks to multiculturalism. That verse condemns multiculturalism.

Let's go to an Agrarian saying: "Birds of a feather flock together". That bespeaks a Truth of how Nature works. The multicultural agenda is Against Nature. The Multicultural Agenda is Gnostic. Things segregate *naturally* by kind. That is how Nature Works.

Well, If I am at a Protestant website, we should go to Scripture shouldn't we? Sola Scriptura there.

Book of Sirach XIII 15, "Every beast loveth his like and every man loveth his neighbor. All flesh consorteth to kind and a man will cleave to his like".

Wow. What a racist statement. That is what Scripture teaches. Segregation by kind.

Now, I am in compliance with Scripture. With what God teaches. The Whole of Scripture.

I am a Trump supporter. I was for him as soon as he said about Building the Wall and immigration enforcement.

Us WASPs are being genocided, our race is being Dissolved, which is soft genocide, by the Roman Catholic Church no less. In his study of the Soviet Union, George Irbe reports ("Genocide, when necessary") that this Bolshevist state engaged in Ethnic dilution which is a form of "nation-killing". We are being genocided by ethnic dilution. I want the Genocide to stop. Why should we be a minority in our own country? Did I, Prof. Reppert, get a Vote on my destiny and the destiny of my people?

Do I not have an ethical duty to preserve my people from dissolution, Prof. Reppert? And so I am evil, Prof. Reppert? On what grounds am I evil? Do you know that Multiculturalism was first called Cosmopolitanism by the Masons? Is not Multiculturalism and Diversity by their very nature, genocidal?

Is that what is being promoted on this website? Genocide, albeit Soft Genocide?

Starhopper said...

Hey Wheeler, you forgot the verse about there being neither Jew or Greek in Christ (plus many others). The entire ministry of Jesus was about inclusion, such as His reaching out to the woman at the well, or in the parable about the good Samaritan, or in His praise of the centurion with a paralyzed servant (etc., etc.).

You really need to peddle your white supremacist garbage over at stormfront or some other overtly racist website. You'll get no takers here.

W.LindsayWheeler said...

One should understand the context, Starhopper, or should I say, Grasshopper. Many of the religions of the Roman Empire catered to only specific classes of people. Some religions were only for women. Others for only slaves. One was only for Roman soldiers. Judaism catered to only the Jews. Galatians 3:8 is highly abused by the gnostic. Galatians 3:8 is about the Christian religion---NOT about the Natural Order. The two are separate. Two different rules. St. Paul, who authored Galatians also said, women are to be silent in the church, are to cover their heads and are the weaker sex. True, the Christian Church is for all, slave and free, Greek and Jew, and Male and Female but that doesn't speak to the Natural Order. St. Paul returned a slave to his master.

There is still slaves. There is still men and women with different duties.

What you are expressing is the heresy of Sola Gospel. Jesus said, "Man lives by EVERY word that proceeds out of the Mouth of God". That means the Old Testament and the real, original Natural Law. One should not use one verse to the detriment or the exclusion of the other. Truth does not contradict Truth. You should know that as a Catholic. Furthermore, you can never nullify the Truth because when you do, one falls into further error. When you deny the existence of nation---you have automatically committed the act of genocide. Nowhere does orthodox catholic Christianity attack the Natural Order. It is not utopian, nor millinarian.

Legion of Logic said...

W.LindsayWheeler, is there an abbreviation for your name you find appropriate? That's quite the fingerful.

Isn't Heaven exclusionary?

The United States isn't Heaven, and the rules for membership are quite different. Legally, the United States has no constitutional business attempting to force religious purity.

While Christians, particularly conservative Christians, are understandably uncomfortable with recent cultural shifts, the dirty little secret they don't seem to truly understand is that these cultural shifts in no way affect their ability to believe and behave as they wish. There is no need to try and force societal compliance through the power of the government - although to be fair, they have just as much legal right to impose their beliefs via voting as anyone else.


The one here important is the Virtue of Righteousness

Are Christians bound to the moral teachings of Aristotle? Or is this included in Catholic doctrine somewhere?


When St. Paul uses the verse about muzzling the oxen and extrapolates that to paying the clergy, this verse speaks to multiculturalism.

You lost me there.


Well, If I am at a Protestant website, we should go to Scripture shouldn't we? Sola Scriptura there.

I'm curious why you think the average Protestant would be impressed by Sirach, which is an apocryphal book.


Things segregate *naturally* by kind.
That is what Scripture teaches. Segregation by kind.

We do naturally gravitate toward those most like us. As such, I would not tolerate the government forcing me to interact with people I do not wish to, but I also would not tolerate the government forcing segregation and conformity. Let people associate with whomever they choose.


our race is being Dissolved

The concept of race should be dissolved.


Why should we be a minority in our own country?

Whose country isn't it?


When you deny the existence of nation

One doesn't need to deny the concept of a nation to find it irrelevant to the truth or operation of the Gospel.

W.LindsayWheeler said...

Legion of Logic writes: "...The concept of race should be dissolved."

"Race" is a French word meaning Breed. It is an agricultural term. I just quoted Lev where God says that cattle of one kind should not be mixed with another kind. If you want to do away with breeds, Logically, one would think you are calling for getting rid of Holsteins and Herefords, Boxers and Chihuahuas, and Cornish hens and Rhode Islands. If you do that, you destroy the Ag business. Farmers pay attention to Particularity---not to the universal. Particularity is very important. Race is particularity.

If you understand philosophy, one of the most important concepts is that all things are composed of a universal and their particularity. The Universal is the "Form" for Plato. If you get rid of race, you get rid of particularity---which is a gnostic characteristic.

The French word "race" is synonymous with the Latin word "nation".

At LXX Psalm 85:5 (numbering different in Masoretic), Scripture has it: "...all the nations whom thou hast created."

God created all the nations of the earth. The Our Father has this line in it: "Thy Will be Done". We are on this earth to do the Will of the Father---not ours. It says in Isaiah, "My Ways are not your ways, and My Thoughts are NOT your thoughts". That is why we read the Bible to see and learn WHAT GOD WANTS. Plutarch a priest of Apollo at the Doric Temple at Delphi, taught, "We are NOT in the world to give the laws,...but in order to obey the commands of the gods". That is central to Western Civilization and Culture. We are here to do the Will of God. God created Nations because He wanted people IN racial groups! It is a teaching of Jewish Messianism, look it up, that requires the building of "World Unity". This ideology is found in Freemasonry, in the teachings of liberalism (q.v. Kant and his politics) and in International Socialism!

See, if you are for World Unity, you are practicing another religion---and you are NOT practicing orthodox Christianity. If you follow the tenets of another religion---you are an apostate.

God destroyed the Tower of Babel. God created all the Nations of the earth. Jesus said, "Go unto all the Nations". Now, is Jesus dumb? Did Jesus say "Go to Mankind"? NO. Jesus, Lord of All, said, "Go to the Nations". Jesus did NOT send us to the Nations to destroy them! All things were created THRU JESUS CHRIST. Nations were created thru Jesus Christ by the COMMAND of Almighty God---so why are you disobeying Scripture and the Will of God?

In the face of the propaganda of International Socialism, we are driven to preserve our nations from dissolution. It is our duty to do so. Scripture IS clear on what God wants.

Our only answer is to comply. Causa finita, Scripture has spoken.

Starhopper said...

"That is why we read the Bible to see and learn WHAT GOD WANTS."

Translation: "I read the Bible to find stuff that reinforces my own opinion, then I call it the Word of God."

How convenient.

SteveK said...

Starhopper
>> "Hey Wheeler, you forgot the verse about there being neither Jew or Greek in Christ (plus many others)."

Yes, IN CHRIST. A huge portion of the world is not in Christ, therefore we are not one and there is no unity and no call to be unified until such time as we are all in Christ.

Treating different people (those not in Christ) differently is not a sin. Preferring one culture (a culture not hostile to Christ) over another is not a sin.

SteveK said...

Legion
>> "While Christians, particularly conservative Christians, are understandably uncomfortable with recent cultural shifts, the dirty little secret they don't seem to truly understand is that these cultural shifts in no way affect their ability to believe and behave as they wish."

This is not *necessarily* true. A cultural shift to majority Muslim (for example) could make it impossible to behave as I wish. Nobody can take away my ability to believe, but they can take away my ability to freely worship and freely associate.

>> "There is no need to try and force societal compliance through the power of the government - although to be fair, they have just as much legal right to impose their beliefs via voting as anyone else."

It's not a matter of need, it's a matter of preference. Mimicking Obama's famous line about doctors, I imagine Obama would say it like this: "If you like your culture, you can keep your culture."

American culture is what I like and prefer and there are millions just like me who are doing what they can to keep the culture from shifting too far. Tight border control helps to stabilize the culture and keep it from shifting too far.

SteveK said...

Wheeler:
>> "See, if you are for World Unity, you are practicing another religion---and you are NOT practicing orthodox Christianity. If you follow the tenets of another religion---you are an apostate."

Being for world unity is not anti-Christian. It is the goal - to be united together IN CHRIST. We're not there and we won't ever get there completely (hell is very real), but progress can be made and I am for that.

I see no reason to live and pretend like the world is unified as one because that would be a delusion. Maybe that is what you are trying to say. I don't know really.

Joe Hinman said...

St. Peter is clear: The Faith must be supplemented by Virtue. Only the Righteous go to Heaven. The Unrighteous go to Hell.

I used to think that, But now we have the "boys-will-be-boys" loop-hole. just go up to St. Pete and say "I grabbed her by the pussy but boys will be boys." It's cool, you can be the big man of God and do anything yo want if you are rich,

Joe Hinman said...

The French word "race" is synonymous with the Latin word "nation".

you just said it was synonymous with breed.So where does the US constitutions say that our nation is a certain race?
that's really what you are saying itsn'it? race =bed=nation = America for White people only,isn't it?

Joe Hinman said...

Wheeler:
>> "See, if you are for World Unity, you are practicing another religion---and you are NOT practicing orthodox Christianity. If you follow the tenets of another religion---you are an apostate


show me the creed where it says that

W.LindsayWheeler said...

@Starhopper: Translation: "I read the Bible to find stuff that reinforces my own opinion, then I call it the Word of God." "How convenient."

Ohh, Grasshopper, you have much to learn.

The Bible requires two witnesses to confirm an account as true. There is another witness that backs up what the Bible teaches. There are two pillars to the truth of the existence of Nations.

Starhopper, you stated that you were a Catholic. Does not the Catholic Church use the Natural Law? In the Timaeus, Plato says, philosophy is derived from the Nature of the Universe. Well, who created the Universe? God did thru His Son, Jesus Christ. St. John the Apostle starts his gospel with a teaching of The Logos. The Logos is Jesus Christ.

Heraclitus perceives something very important, There is a Logos that steers all things from within. This "steering" is the Laws of Nature, or in other words, the Natural Law.

See, the first revelation of God is not the Old Testament---but Nature herself. We know a craftsman by what he makes. Ever watch Antiques Roadshow, and the expert says, "Oh yeah, that was made by so-n-so". We know something about the maker thru the things he makes. Nature is no different. Ensconced, hidden within Nature is the Natural Law, i.e. The Logos.
In the Laws, Plato asks Clinias the Cretan for a defense against atheism. Clinias says, "Why, Look upon Nature. See Order. Know God". There is Order in Nature. The Order is the Natural Law that "steers all things from within". It is from Jesus Christ.

This is why Greek philosophy is important because Greek philosophy is the Love of the Sophia, i.e. The Logos, in Nature. Here is a short article on that connection: "Christ, Reason (Logos) and Greek Philosophy"
https://www.academia.edu/1619469/

Here is the List of the real, original Natural Law: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:WHEELER/Real_Original_Natural_Law

Now, virtue was brought up in this thread. Virtue is in the Golden Mean. Virtue is the Mean between excess and deficiency. Truth is the Golden Mean between Excess of exaggeration and the deficiency of lie. The Good falls into the Golden Mean. The Orthodox theologian Apostolos Makrakis remarks that the Trinity is the Golden Mean between strict Monotheism which is an Deficiency and the excess of Polytheism. The Trinity strikes the Mean.

Now, the Maverick Philosopher, using the Golden Mean paradigm, posits this: "It navigates between the Scylla of destructive leftist globalist internationalism and the Charybdis of racist identity-political particularism." (ref: http://maverickphilosopher.typepad.com/maverick_philosopher/2018/04/the-greatest-risk-we-are-taking.html )

He is off-kelter. The Excess is Internationalism, or the One Large mass of humanity but the deficiency is Individualism, not race. Race/Nation is the Golden Mean between the excess of one large mass of humanity and the deficiency of Individualism which is Libertarianism, Americanism, Anarchism. Many things exist in the Golden Mean and it is Race/Nation that is in the Mean. (By the way, any ideology of Individualism is soft genocide.)

So here we see that the Natural Law backs up what Scripture teaches. Starhopper thinks I am using the Bible for private interpretation but the Natural Law, The Logos, found in Nature backs up what the Bible teaches. It is not a "Private" interpretation I am presenting---but a Consistent Teaching that has two separate but related witnesses--both found in Christ Jesus. Nature is a type of Scripture. Nature Proceeded out of the Mouth of God, i.e. The Logos, The Word, and we must be obedient to The Logos, i.e. the Natural Law. The Natural Law of the Golden Mean establishes the Truth of Race/Nation.

Joe Hinman said...


Blogger W.LindsayWheeler said...
@Starhopper: Translation: "I read the Bible to find stuff that reinforces my own opinion, then I call it the Word of God." "How convenient."

Ohh, Grasshopper, you have much to learn.

yes Grasshoppper all us super spiritualist know that racism is special to God

The Bible requires two witnesses to confirm an account as true. There is another witness that backs up what the Bible teaches. There are two pillars to the truth of the existence of Nations.

Note the circular reasoning also very special to God,all of God's favorite races are into racial reasoning

Starhopper, you stated that you were a Catholic. Does not the Catholic Church use the Natural Law? In the Timaeus, Plato says, philosophy is derived from the Nature of the Universe. Well, who created the Universe? God did thru His Son, Jesus Christ. St. John the Apostle starts his gospel with a teaching of The Logos. The Logos is Jesus Christ.

pay attention Hoppie this is where we move from mere circular reasoning to actual psychosis

Heraclitus perceives something very important, There is a Logos that steers all things from within. This "steering" is the Laws of Nature, or in other words, the Natural Law.

See, the first revelation of God is not the Old Testament---but Nature herself. We know a craftsman by what he makes. Ever watch Antiques Roadshow, and the expert says, "Oh yeah, that was made by so-n-so". We know something about the maker thru the things he makes. Nature is no different. Ensconced, hidden within Nature is the Natural Law, i.e. The Logos.

Of course Heraclitus use of Logos is totally different from the one it the Gospel of John,which is actually based upon the Hebrew concept of mema, the term logos is really just a loan word for the Hebrew,


In the Laws, Plato asks Clinias the Cretan for a defense against atheism. Clinias says, "Why, Look upon Nature. See Order. Know God". There is Order in Nature. The Order is the Natural Law that "steers all things from within". It is from Jesus Christ.

Of course he didn't say that

Joe Hinman said...

He is off-kelter. The Excess is Internationalism, or the One Large mass of humanity but the deficiency is Individualism, not race. Race/Nation is the Golden Mean between the excess of one large mass of humanity and the deficiency of Individualism which is Libertarianism, Americanism, Anarchism. Many things exist in the Golden Mean and it is Race/Nation that is in the Mean. (By the way, any ideology of Individualism is soft genocide.)

self servings drivel, I have read all this philosophy which I barely understand and I can read into it the basis of my own specialness, I am the philosopher king Phatoneeded,Liberalism is bad because I am me,Liberalism wont let pretend I;'m special.

Joe Hinman said...

Grasshopper notice how there has been no discussion of America civil religion. Because we others, we philosopher kings but divert all attention to our agenda.


O grasshopper, let me explain philosophy to you. Those of us who have been the mortician top, who have seen deeply into the nature of being por soi,who had the presence of mind to buy Kodak, we understand that elegance is a sign o breeding, blood will tell, blood and soil.Breeding is nation and nation is tribe and tribe is which is based upon bloodlines, and bloodlines control land, and land is is soil and silo and bool is breeding and breeding is elegance.

Grasshopper keep your hands from beans,

W.LindsayWheeler said...

@Starhopper. There is a third witness and that of Aristotle. In Aristotle we have a clean observer of reality, one not corrupted with ideology like the modern world we live in today. Aristotle is a Scientist. Plato defines science as "knowing the condition of that which is". Aristotle is about telling us "the condition of that which is". The Greeks are realists, not idealists and true philosophy is a science; it is about knowing reality as is.

In his famous observation, Aristotle notes that man is a Social Animal:

“From these things therefore it is clear that the city-state is a natural growth, and that man is by nature a social animal, 4 (Politics, I, First book, 9; Loeb pg. 9)...And why man is a social animal in a greater measure than any bee or any gregarious animal is clear.
For nature, as we declare, does nothing without purpose; and man alone of all the animals possesses speech.” (ibid, First book, 10; Loeb, pg. 11)

What is the meaning of the word "gregarious"? It means Flocking. When Aristotle writes about being "social", he really means Herd animal. Man is a Herd animal by nature. Look at all the animals that man has domesticated and surrounded himself with. They are all herd animals except the domestic cat. Dogs, Horses, Cows, Sheep, Goats, Chickens are all Herd Animals. What does that tell us?

What is Nation/Race? But a Herd.

So here is a Third witness who speaks truthfully on what he observes in Nature, and this correlates to what the Bible and the Natural Law teach.

W.LindsayWheeler said...

@SteveK. Being for world unity is not anti-Christian. It is the goal - to be united together IN CHRIST. We're not there and we won't ever get there completely (hell is very real), but progress can be made and I am for that.

Being Unitied In Christ, is the act of Baptism. There is NO positive action that a Christian takes for "unity". It happens automatically at Baptism. But that unity of Christianity is broken by Heresy, Apostasy and Error. Many Christians today are Gnostic, a heresy. Others are Apostates. The Unity of Christ is in the Religion of Christianity qua religion. One believer to another but that does not supercede one's racial duties and obligations.

The Unity of Christianity was expressed and acheived in Christendom, of Throne and Altar. Where the King, the Throne, represented the Natural Order and the Archbishop, the Altar, the Spritual Order. Christendom was an actual historical reality. The true actions of Christians did NOT attack the Natural Order. Each king was the head of his racial unit. That did not change.


Now, Hinman asks: "show me the creed where it says that" talking about World Unity. Well, here is a talk from the Chief Rabbi of the London Synagogue, Rabbi Ari Kahn The Messiah where he talks that in order to have the Jewish Messiah, World Unity and a Utopia have to be established.

To bring this into better perspective is this quote from Weisberger, in his book, The Jewish Ethic and the Spirit of Socialism: “Messianism envisions human existence as a three-part process, consisting of an original unity, a middle period in which man has "fallen" into history, and an eschatological final period. Messianism sees history as destined for the restoration of the original unity broken by the sin of Adam. The Jewish discontent with the present is rooted in the feeling of loss of this original harmony and the deep desire for its return. Jewish messianism understands the restoration of the original unity as a public, communal event which occurs on the stage of history. It is here that Jewish and Christian messianism has parted (pg 116)

In other, simpler words, the rebuilding of the Tower of Babel. The original unity mentioned above is the Tower of Babel, the middle part is that men are divided by race, the third part is the rebuilding of the Tower of Babel.

Scripture tells us to not be decieved. What is the origin of your ideology? Is it really Christian---or is it from another religion?

Starhopper said...

"The Unity of Christ [...] does not supercede one's racial duties and obligations."

And here we have it, folks. The racist damns himself, and in his own words.

NOTHING "supercedes" Christ - nothing. May I direct you to The Breastplate of Saint Patrick? Anytime anyone tells you that anything "supercedes" Christ, run!

Victor Reppert said...

The only racial identity that means anything in the Bible is the race of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. But even there Christ transcends the difference.

W.LindsayWheeler said...

And in the Book of Revelation, St. John the Apostle has a vision of heaven. What does he see? First he says there is NO temple. There is NO Church in heaven! But what takes its place is the Lamb Himself.

And then, Chap 21:24, “By the light shall the nations walk; and the kings of the earth shall bring their glory into it. …(26) they shall bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations.”

St. John sees NATIONS in heaven! The Natural Order. The Natural Law is eternal and unchanging and the Natural Law reconstitutes Christendom with its Kings and Nations. Remember the Latin for Nation is “One birth”. The characteristic of a nation, of an ethnos is homogeneity.

So we see that there is NO temple in heaven, meaning the Church proper is not there. The Church Triumphant is split into the Nations just as Jesus said in the Gospel. Go to the Nations, and the saved within them will be reconstituted into their National groupings in heaven.

The real, original Natural Law is eternal and unchanging and as it formed the cosmos, it also works in heaven and in the new rejuvenated cosmos. The real, original Natural Law operates all things, "steering all things from within" (Heraclitus). I see nationalism as a preservative. Nationalism preserves its particular character, homogeneity and culture from dissolution.

Legion of Logic said...

Wheeler said: "Why should we be a minority in our own country?"

I responded: "Whose country isn't it?"

The United States were formed because people from multiple European nations settled in the "New World". Britain happened to come out on top, but then the colonies rebelled and formed its own nation. Then this nation proceeded westward and took land from the natives as well as Mexico. In the meantime, it brought slaves over from Africa and these slaves had children. All these different groups are multiple generations into forming the population of this nation.

So again I ask, whose country isn't it?

W.LindsayWheeler said...

Well, Legion of Logic, what proper English is "Whose country isn't it"? This is absolute garbage sentence. It makes no sense. I have no idea of what you are getting at. If you think you are the paragon of Logic, well, Logic dictates the proper use of language and the creating of sentences in proper English. Language is the sign of Logic. Obviously, it seems you can't write logically. "Whose country is not it?" Makes no sense.

Starhopper said...

To my fellow readers of Dangerous Idea,

Might I suggest we stop feeding this troll? Let him take his racist filth over to some white supremacist website, where he'll feel right at home. I for one hereby pledge that not only will I never again answer one of his postings, I will no longer even read them.

Joe Hinman said...




On Metacrcok's blog

Discussion of what has happened to the right wing political Evangelicals and why their Bible based beliefs did not prevent their loss of values,

Legion of Logic said...

This is absolute garbage sentence.

So is the above quoted sentence, if that's the game you're going to play. You should probably check your own grammar before attempting to criticize someone else for the same.

And you know exactly what I was asking even if you dispute the grammar. You claim the country is yours ("our country") and you claim you do not wish to be a minority in "[y]our own country".

So, in order for you to be a minority in your country, there would by necessity be a majority in your country of which you are not a part. Who would this majority be? Do the members of this majority not have the right to claim the US as their nation? If not, why?

Legion of Logic said...

Wheeler,

You aren't Cal by any chance, are you? I ask because most people, if they were to remove the contraction "isn't" from my sentence, would then write it as "Whose country is it not", rather than "Whose country is not it", as you did. Cal was notorious for intentionally using the improper form of words when "translating" someone else in an attempt to make them appear stupid, a very childish tactic to be sure, and here I find you doing the same. Perhaps English isn't your first language?

Legion of Logic said...

Might I suggest we stop feeding this troll?

Now that he lost his composure and resorted to childish insults toward me as a retort, I don't think it will last much longer anyway.

Joe Hinman said...

Might I suggest we stop feeding this troll?

you are wise grasshopper, you have been learning from my wisdom

Joe Hinman said...

I do want to observe one thing LL, how many atheists have tired to detract from my point by focusing on spelling. He's doing that same thing to you. For get the fact that there is no basis for the assertion that white people own America and other races are second class.Or that that idea is evil and a betrayal of what Amoebic stands for. What's really important is how you use a contraction.

Joe Hinman said...

nd then, Chap 21:24, “By the light shall the nations walk; and the kings of the earth shall bring their glory into it. …(26) they shall bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations.”

St. John sees NATIONS in heaven! The Natural Order. The Natural Law is eternal and unchanging and the Natural Law reconstitutes Christendom with its Kings and Nations. Remember the Latin for Nation is “One birth”. The characteristic of a nation, of an ethnos is homogeneity.

Just a point of countering propaganda, the reference to "the nations" does not mean there were nation states in Heaven. It does not mean races of people, it mean the gentles, it was a euphemism the Jews used for gentiles. being a Jew was not a matter of race because there were people ofthe getielswho became part of the Herew faith,

Legion of Logic said...

Just a point of countering propaganda, the reference to "the nations" does not mean there were nation states in Heaven. It does not mean races of people, it mean the gentles, it was a euphemism the Jews used for gentiles. being a Jew was not a matter of race because there were people ofthe getielswho became part of the Herew faith

Absolutely correct. The same Greek word is translated nations, Gentiles, heathen, etc, and in context are used interchangeably.



W.LindsayWheeler said...

@Joe Hinman, About your contention that the word 'nation' means "gentiles" and is an euphemism----How do you explain "the glory and honor" part? Gentiles don't have "glory and honor", Nations have honor and glory. And what are Kings? But leaders of the Nations. The "glory and honor" nullifies your conclusion.

Yes, the Nation state is there in Heaven. Christendom is re-instituted in Heaven. God's plan is that there are nations and Nations exist in Heaven because God wants it that way. There is a consistent teaching from the Old Testament, to the Natural Law, to Aristotle, to the St. John's vision of what Heaven will be, the Final stage, Nations.

Joe Hinman said...

that nations refers to gentiles very common knowledge. It highlights your ignorance.

All of your doctrines are based upon easygensis, twisting words. here's the scam you pull with this lignite glory thing: It does not say the nations have glory of their own it says they walk by the light of God's glory. Gentiles not countries but people who are gentiles and have found Jesus walk by God's light.

the verse you butcher:

“By the light shall the nations walk; (some translations say by his light or by its light meaning God's glory). the context ios in v 23
"The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp." God is teh light not the glory of nations,



and the kings of the earth shall bring their glory into it. …(26) they shall bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations.”

that is not what it says,the kings are not the nations, their glory is the power of the world man;s glry it will be gien to God not to nations, to God. "to it" refers to the loight of God's glory.

this formulation of blood = races = nationsis sdisproved b y the book of John chapter1
v 9
he true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

v 13 literally says "not of bloods." that does refer to races and to nations but says salvation is not based upon that it is not based upon race or upon a nationality, being a child of God is not a matter of race or nation, So much for your eternal nation crap.

you are trying to create a covenant status for America like Israel had in the OT that is a contradiction to the heart of Christian theology.

Joe Hinman said...

Yes, the Nation state is there in Heaven. Christendom is re-instituted in Heaven.

Christendom was a medieval concept,it's not in the bible. It has no official status in the church.


God's plan is that there are nations and Nations exist in Heaven because God wants it that way.

I just disproved that, John 1:13 says being a child of God is not a matter of bloods


There is a consistent teaching from the Old Testament, to the Natural Law, to Aristotle, to the St. John's vision of what Heaven will be, the Final stage, Nations.

No there is not, Aristotle is not even in concert with other Greeks who talk about a logos,there is no basis in natural law for a special nation ,that is nonsense even Israel was not based upon natural law,

W.LindsayWheeler said...

What is going on here is the lack of concepts. Mr. Hinmon, John 1:13 is about the Christian religion and not about the Natural Order. How many times must I say this: there are TWO different spheres which have different rules. This was very clear under Christendom. The Catholic mentality was a separation between the two spheres. See, when Christendom was destroyed by the Enlightenment, by the Atheists, this idea disappeared; this concept was lost and now Christians are taking their religion and moving it into the material realm. You are taking the tenets of religion and applying them to the Natural Order. True Christianity has NOTHING to do with the Natural Order. The error here in this thread is that many of you are taking the Gospel, and changing the world to suit fanciful religious interpretations. That is NOT orthodox Christianity.

Yes, and all those Children of God are going to be reconstituted into the racial groups in heaven. That verse in John is a somewhat rhetorical flourish. You are taking a religious rhetorical flourish and applying it to the physical material earth? No. That's crazy.

------------------

And there is a problem for those like the Maverick Philosopher who remarked " the Charybdis of racist identity-political particularism." What is going to happen in heaven when God tells him to join his racial group? Is he going to attack God about racist identity? See, if you can't handle it here on earth, you won't be able to handle it in heaven. The Christian God is the God of Order. If one engages in treason against one's kinsmen--how is that going to go down in heaven?

What do you think was the crime of Judas? Jesus said of Judas Iscariot, "It had been better if he had never been born". Throughout the NT, Judas is labelled a traitor. Well, what is the opposite of being a traitor? Loyalty. Loyalty is a Virtue. It is not one of the Ten Commandments. Here the Holy Spirit in the NT makes the case that Judas was a traitor and Jesus condemns him with the harshest sentence.

If you attack your racial group, engage in genocide by subterfuge of your racial group in this world---are you going to heaven to be a member of your nation? Are you adding to the glory and honor of your people in Heaven?

I point to St. Joan of Arc. French Catholic, killed by English Catholics. She is in heaven and she still is French and still is a woman. Our gender remains in heaven and our racial identity remains in heaven! How many Saints are called with a Nationalist adjective? There are hundreds of St. Andrews. I pray to St. Andrew of Crete. He is a Cretan in Heaven. How many times have people said, Jesus is a Jew. Jesus is still a Jew in Heaven. Our ethnic identity is part of our personality. Like our gender is part of our personality. Our Personality is on our soul! The Blessed Virgin Mary is a female in Heaven and is still Jewish. That will never depart from her because that is part of her identity!

For those that attack your own racial group---you will not be going to be going to heaven. If you hate nation here on earth---you will certainly hate it in heaven and because you hate it here on earth, you have committed Treason---and there are no traitors, no Judases, in Heaven.

Legion of Logic said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Legion of Logic said...

For those that attack your own racial group---you will not be going to be going to heaven.

Mark 3:28-29, Wheeler Standard Edition: "All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: But he that shall attack his own race hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation"

Pretty sure there's nothing left to discuss here. A nice perversion of the gospel you have going there, by the way. Also, a nice garbage sentence.

Joe Hinman said...


Blogger W.LindsayWheeler said...
What is going on here is the lack of concepts. Mr. Hinmon,

Hinman--with an "a"

John 1:13 is about the Christian religion and not about the Natural Order. How many times must I say this: there are TWO different spheres which have different rules. This was very clear under Christendom.

Nothing in the bible sets any kind of national order into an eternal doctrine, there is not doctrine of nations,and it certainly does not teach any form of racial superiority. The modern nation state is a construct of the enlightenment it did not exist in Bible times,

The Catholic mentality was a separation between the two spheres. See, when Christendom was destroyed by the Enlightenment, by the Atheists, this idea disappeared; this concept was lost and now Christians are taking their religion and moving it into the material realm.

Catholic theology created a hierarchy governing both secular and sacred."Christendom" is not a Biblical concept it;s a man made idea, we arenot ologated to worry about Christendom

You are taking the tenets of religion and applying them to the Natural Order.

that's what you are doimg by equating blood, race,and nation and putting it in heaven

True Christianity has NOTHING to do with the Natural Order. The error here in this thread is that many of you are taking the Gospel, and changing the world to suit fanciful religious interpretations. That is NOT orthodox Christianity.

that is totally wrong on many levels, there's no reason why government policy should not reflect Christian values, We live in a kind of society that didn't exist in the bible times, modern decorator. The will majority in choosing leaders and participation of all citizens in policy. Those things should reflect our values as Christians, they are not matters of salvation. .you are not going to be saved by being a Democrat or
Republican,

Joe Hinman said...

For those that attack your own racial group---you will not be going to be going to heaven. If you hate nation here on earth---you will certainly hate it in heaven and because you hate it here on earth, you have committed Treason---and there are no traitors, no Judases, in Heaven.

Galation's 1:7-9"Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!"


John 1:12-13
"As MANY AS RECIEVED HIM he gave to them authority, to those who believe on his name,to be the children of God, who not of bloods or of will of flesh nor will of man but of God.

NIV: "12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God."



Joe Hinman said...

For those that attack your own racial group---you will not be going to be going to heaven. If you hate nation here on earth---you will certainly hate it in heaven and because you hate it here on earth, you have committed Treason---and there are no traitors, no Judases, in Heaven.

Wheeler, Not of my authority but of St Paul and the Bible (Galatians) you are preaching a Gospel not other than the Gospel of Christ, Paul says you are anathema,

No one made gave you the authority to pronounce who goes to heaven.you need to worry about your own soul because you are preaching a counterfeit gospel.

One other thing? where do you get the idea that not supporting a notion of racial superiority is attacking your own racial group?

Joe Hinman said...

John 1:13 says salvation is not of bloods it means it is not based upon race

Starhopper said...

Ro return to the original premise of this thread, I believe that the idea of an American civil religion is very dangerous, and ultimately harmful to Christianity. It allows the "faithful" (scare quotes intentional) to externalize their religion - to be satisfied with going through the motions, as it were. It also makes difficult an essential aspect of genuine prophecy, that of speaking truth to power. The Old Testament prophets were rarely on good terms with the kings of Israel. Many of them were martyred. In our own country, some of the greatest exemplars of the Christian faith have served time or otherwise run afoul of "the system", people like Martin Luther King, Dorothy Day, John Lewis, Leonard Grimes, Daniel Berrigan, and many others too numerous to list.

Starhopper said...

That should have been "To return to the original"...

Oh, well. So I sound like Astro on the Jetsons!

W.LindsayWheeler said...

Boy, trying to get things across here is so difficult. I never said salvation is by blood and I never, never intimated that. Why Mr. Hinman you keep on with that is beyond me. Jesus Christ sent the Apostles to the Nations. And those that are saved WITHIN those nations, go to heaven and as our bodies are reconstituted, our nations will be reconstituted, all according to the Natural Law. St. John the Apostle is pretty clear, Nations exist in Heaven. Not everyone that once belonged to any nation will be there---only the saved and born-again. Only those that have accepted Christ---and furthermore have not fallen into error.

--------------

What is the Trinity? The Trinity is very very important. Within the Trinity is some very important concepts because it too, is formed around the Natural Law.

The Trinity has a Unity called God. There is a universal. And yet within the Trinity is particularity. God is One but of Three Persons. Universal, But Particular.

Same thing with Mankind. Mankind is One---but split up into 400 some Particularities called Nations. What Mankind looks like and mirrors, is the Trinity that created us.

We also see hierarchy in the Trinity. Just the appellation of "Father" and "Son" denote rank. Jesus constantly tells us about His obedience to the Will of the Father. We see the paradigm of the Trinity in the Family. We also see the paradigm of the Trinity in the Nation, with Monarch, Aristocracy and commons. 3, 3, 3. Is it any wonder that Aristotle's favorite number was three.

The attack upon Nation is an attack upon the Trinity. If one attacks the particularism of the Cosmos, of the Nation, you surely can't get along with the Trinity. The Trinity teaches a Universal and Particularity. And what we see is the that each has its sphere and its place. We see Respect. Ultimately, those that attack the existence of nation, don't believe or at the very least, understand the Trinity. There are NO Gnostics in heaven.

------

Your attack upon Nation and against its existence, and your vehemence is a sign of another error. Utopianism. God threw us out of the Garden of Eden. It is HERESY to rebuild it. Nowhere does orthodox catholic Christianity teach, proclaim, advance, or advocate the rebuilding of the Garden of Eden. You attack me as if I am a heretic because I'm not with your progressive program. The Left is about rebuilding the Garden of Eden. That will never happen. All Leftists are secular milleniarianists, the seeking of building a utopia. And one of the major building block of Utopian thinking, of milleniarianist ideology, is the getting rid of nations. Nations have existed from time immemorial. They have always existed. It is natural, and commonsense to accept them. For some reason, that has all changed. It is because you have adopted Utopianism, and if some of us disagree---we are called names and are to be put to death for it? Your Utopianism is your Religion---but it ain't orthodox Christianity.

Joe Hinman said...

Boy, trying to get things across here is so difficult. I never said salvation is by blood and I never, never intimated that.

you actually said that racial attitudes can negate salvation.Now you don;t get what that means? You are just selling snake oil.

Joe Hinman said...

Starhopper. excellent point about externalizing faith, I also think civil religion blurts the distinction between God and country and faith politics

W.LindsayWheeler said...

@Joe Hinman, you actually said that racial attitudes can negate salvation.Now you don;t get what that means? You are just selling snake oil.

Now, I'm glad that you make this distinction and brought this up.

Many things are there. Yes racial attitudes are ****signs**** of either orthodoxy or heterodoxy. Do you have the authentic Faith or is one in Heresy. This goes to the Faith; does one have a pure unadulterated Faith or are you compromised with heresy and apostasy.

Again, I go back to II Peter 1:5 : 2 Peter 1:5-7
"For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love."


Faith must be supplemented with Virtue, the first four virtues are Manliness, Righteousness, Temperance, and Prudence. The Virtue of Righteousness teaches us to do our Duty to God, then our Duty to our Fatherland. Ensconced within the Virtue of Righteousness quoted above is the MORAL ORDER. The Virtue of Righteousness also includes the Virtue of Loyalty. If one attacks one's own nation---that means one does not have Virtue. Then one's Faith is not complete and true. The Moral Order directs to right goals in a hierarchy of values. If one isn't doing virtue, one is doing vice.

Knowledge comes third. One must have Knowledge of the Bible and what it teaches. Second, one must have knowledge of the Natural Law. Third, one must have knowledge of Heresies that the Church has condemned. Fourth, one must have knowledge of Modern Errors. Christianity is about the Truth. Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life". Truth is very important. The Way is very important. Fifth, one must have knowledge of Classical Antiquity, especially Hellenism and the Roman Empire to understand the Greek in the New Testament and why what was said in the New Testament. Christianity is a Greek/European religion---not a Jewish religion---(q.v. the parable of the New Wine Skins).

Let's go back to Aristotle. Aristotle taught "health is one thing---but disease is manifold". The same goes for the Health of the Soul is the Health of the Faith one holds--there are many "diseases" or shall we say Heresies that afflict the holding of the true Faith. In that same ltr, St. Peter talks about "destructive heresies".

To attack nations/races and the mechanics thereof, is the sign of Gnosticism, the hatred of particularity, the hatred of nature. The reason given to do so is the Heresy of Sola Gospel, when Jesus clearly commanded that EVERY word that comes from God is to be paid attention to. The third reason to engage in anti-racism campaigns is the Heresy of Utopianism. That many Christians are have been corrupted with the ideology of Masonry and International Socialism. All of the above negate one's salvation.

One must have Purity of Faith, the Consistent teaching of the Church in order to be saved.

Life is a Minefield. Life is War. It is a very dangerous world. St. Peter said, "...beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability".

Joe Hinman said...

your world view is predicated upon fear. faith in Jesus is based upon love. Love casts out fear.

bmiller said...

@W.LindsayWheeler,

In your opinion, is there a difference between a race and a nation?

For most people, the answer would be yes. For instance most people would say that there are a number of races in America, but all are Americans that meet the citizenship requirements.

W.LindsayWheeler said...

@bmiller. The English Language is the problem. 'Race' and 'nation' are both borrowed terms. In the Greek Language, a native Greek speaker doesn't use those terms. He has 'ethnos' which is a natural Greek word. Your problem is solely in the Anglo-sphere.

In Latin, 'Nation' is derived from the word, 'natus' meaning birth. Nation means one birth.

The problem lies in that 'nation' for an English person means a large state with a government but that was not the meaning for the Latins.

For instance, the German Classicist Karl Otfried Mueller in 1834 wrote a book called "On the Dorian" in German. The title was translated into English as "The History and Antiquities of the Doric Race" as early as 1839. For the English, one wouldn't use the word 'nation' because the Doric Greeks created a whole bunch of separate city-states across the Mediterranean. They were never a cohesive whole after their migration. The use of 'race' in this context is right for English speakers. An English speaker would not use the the term "Doric nation" because it wouldn't make sense. English is a language that depends on flow and sounding right; in some contexts, it is nation, in other contexts one uses race.

About America, there are multiple races, or multiple ethnicities, which are both right. Since the American Indian tribes are all soveriegn, one can call them either Tribes or Nations. One can say Comanche Race, Comanche ethnicity, Comanche Nation, Comanche Tribe.

For Christians, one must be aware of something. Machiavelli wrote that the plan was to keep the words, but change the definitions underneath those words. The abuse of Language carries with it Moral Error and Error. This was why when Socrates starts out on most of his dialectics, he starts with the definition of words. Words, i.e. parts of Logos, is very important. It is a Christian duty to uphold the sanctity of Language.

In this regard, the term 'Nation' is much abused. I prefer to stay with the meaning of the Romans in use of this word. It means One birth. Iceland is a Nation. Switzerland is NOT a nation. It is a Federal state. I don't use the term "Nation" for Germany either. Because the Germans in their provinces are still in their Tribal units. Germans are a Race from Switzer Deutsch (in Switzerland), to the Austrian Germans, to the Bavarians, to the Saxons and so on. That is why the original term was German Empire. An Empire is a conglomeration of different ethnicities.

I don't use the term 'nation' for America. Karl Rove at a meeting of La Raza, said, "America is a Nation of Diversity". That statement is an oxymoron. It nullifies the original meaning of the term and even turns it into its opposite! This is why this is so dangerous. People with agendas, and Karl Rove is one, mangle language.

As Christians, we can NOT mangle Language. Language is for us, Since Jesus was The Logos, and gave us speech, we are NOT to abuse Language.

W.LindsayWheeler said...

America is a mess. The Roman poet, Horace, recognized something when he said this, "Throw out Nature with a pitchfork and yet she shall return".

This can be seen in the former Yugoslavia where a once multicultural communist state, once the central government fell, returned to the Natural Order, segregation by kind.

I'm not the only one seeing something happening in America. The Maverick Philosopher is warning that America is becoming unglued and will eventually led to a civil war (on his site he lays out the causes). One of those causes is "tribalism".

Yes, Nature works on Tribalism. Have you not heard the saying "Blood is thicker than water"? That is a truism. Now that feeling is stronger in some races and weaker in others. The American rugged individual cultural instinct is a characteristic of the Scots and the Anglo-Saxon. It is not so for other races. Did not Aristotle note that men are herd animals?

America as founded is also a mess. The grand population was Protestant Christian but the leadership was Masonic and Deist. A Conundrum. One can see the Masonic influence in the Seal of the United States. One of the only dogmas of Freemasonry in both of its Theistic and Atheistic branches is the Brotherhood of Man. Masonry is about rebuilding the Tower of Babel. The American and Military elite of this country is Masonic. America was never a Christian country. It's populace was Christian, but its founding principles and leadership is not.

One could say that the 1925 Nationalities Act if it was kept, would have created an American Nation built on its foundational character of Northern Europeans, i.e. the Anglo-Saxon/Norman mix, the Germans, Dutch, French which are all Teutonic Tribes. But with the introduction of the 1965 Immigration Act---America as a 'nation' ended. This Act was the fulfillment of Masonry and International Socialism. The architects of this plan wanted to "de-nazify" America and that meant destroying the homogeneity of America. If America had a chance to be a "nation", it ended there. We are now such a mash-up of everything---there is no cohesiveness to America anymore. There is no social compact. Nature will take over. Nature is returning and it ain't going to be pretty.

That is why the Virtue of Prudence is necessary. Our political and religious leaders have absolutely NO Prudence. Utopianism is the religion of today. Utopianism negates Prudence. Prudence has been thrown away by everybody. Prudence and Righteousness prevents violence. Do away with those---And All Hell breaks loose.

bmiller said...

@W.LindsayWheeler,

It certainly seems like America is very politically divided.

But do you consider the people who are descendants of the various ethnicities that immigrated to America (legally) citizens of America? Are you a citizen of America?

Joe Hinman said...

he has not answered your question give him one simple question he will give you buffer full of hogwash dancing around it.

He gives us this song and dance about language; we must keep it pure what he really means by that use of the old Nazi tactic is we must accept his antiquated meanings that no one uses and forget about what we know words really mean now because that's the only way he can turn race into nation

by that slight of hand he can dismiss participatory democracy and rule out all non white members of society not pure members of the "nation" (the white nation).

ever see 'birth of a nation?"

Starhopper said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Starhopper said...

Joe,

I happen to be in the middle of Isaiah right now, and I seriously doubt that there's another book in the entire Bible where you'll find the word "nations" in (at least in English translation) more often. Curiously enough, one can simply do a global find/replace all, substituting "the gentiles" for "nations" and you don't lose one whit of meaning or intelligibility.

Also, there is that absolutely killer verse (19:25) which reads, In that day Israel will be the third with Egypt and Assyria, a blessing in the midst of the earth, whom the LORD of hosts has blessed, saying, "Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel my heritage."

Hmm... Does not sound at all like the idea of nationhood is going to survive the Day of the Lord. All will be equally blessed, and none will be favored or in any way set apart.

(Re-posted due to 2 missing words the first time around.)

W.LindsayWheeler said...

@bmiller. I consider America gone. Yes, I'm an American citizen; I was adopted by an old Southern Family that was originally Anglo-Saxon Protestant. I was a Boy Scout and a Marine and very Patriotic American. Then, in my mid-forties, I did a study on what a 'republic' is and discovered all sorts of stuff that has called into question, or nullified, my whole education as child and teenager. When, at a once 'Christian' private college in Kentucky, and the Philosophy professor, head of the department, passed out the Atheist John S. Mill's book, "The Subjection of Women" as the core book for the Introduction to Philosophy class----well, it's syanarra America.

America has morphed into a Marxist state. All the colleges and universities are Marxist, (soft and fellow traveller types) and I point to Political Correctness as the signifier of that.

Herbert Marcuse, who fled Nazi Germany, came to America and thought of another way of re-purposing Marx's redemptive Messianic message for revolutionary goals. They would
indoctrinate “alienated minorities” into this message.

“Such groups, he declared, could form liberating elites and destroy the
managerial society. So reappeared the old Marxist-Hebraic (and Puritan)
pattern of redemption through struggle by a chosen people. Radical
minority groups could seek to destroy Western civilization from
within by subverting the institutions that made up that civilization.” (Aston,
pg. 248)

What is the Managerial Society? In America? The WASPs. That is what is going on in the “ethnic studies” programs on colleges and universities across America. Minorities are being Marxisized with alienation and inflammatory propaganda to accomplish the Marxization of society. How you SUBVERT is by changing the definitions of words! Like how "nation" now means "diversity".

So Here is a guy, A communist, Flees for his life from Nazi Germany, and sets up shop at Columbia University and then begins more communist agitation. No one stops him. This is where we get Political Correctness. Political Correctness is the ethics of Marxism. Every school teaches that. So here is an immigrant. He hates WASPs and America and launches a campaign to destroy America and bring about HIS Marxist state.

America is not "divided"---it's gone; it's over; it's a Marxist state. The Culture is Marxist. I mean if a once Christian college promotes an Atheist in its Intro course on Philosophy, it's pretty much over.

And do not think that Liberals are different. Prof. Keith Burgess Jackson, on his blog Just Philosophy, posted an excerpt about Kant and his politics:

[Quote]It is individualistic, in that it asserts the moral primacy of the person against the claims of any social collectivity. (ed. note: that's genocide)
It is egalitarian, inasmuch as it confers on all . . . the same moral status.
It is universalist, affirming the moral unity of the human species and according [only] a secondary importance to specific historic associations and cultural forms. (ed. note: The Tower of Babel)[/Quote]
(ref: Roger Sullivan on Kant's political theory

These are Kant's proposals for a LIBERAL state. The above is proto-Marxist. Liberals are soft Marxists.

The term 'conservative' in the Anglosphere means liberal. (I have the references to that; quite thorough) Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, and others are not real conservatives. America is a Liberal, i.e. Masonic/Marxist state and moving to its perfection. The limited, quasi Christian culture of the America is gone. Being replaced by the likes of Herbert Marcuse, Adorno, and Horkeimer and their values. That is what the Italian Communist theorist Antonio Gramsci pretty much advocated. Change the culture, and one changes the politics. America is gone; over; finito.

W.LindsayWheeler said...

As to who are citizens here in America.

Catholic thought from St. Thomas Aquinas onward has this concept called "the common good". Law is only right when it promotes or protects the Common Good of a society. That is the basic denominator of any Law--it is about The Good. Law is about The Good.

The 1965 Immigration Act was about destroying the Homogeneity of America by opening up migration to the whole world. This law is about destruction. The law actually attacks the country that made it!

What the American Government decided to do was to Genocide its Ethnic Majority. Ethnic dilution as George Irbe points out, conducted by the Soviet Union, is a form of nation-killing. To destroy the homogeneity of a Nation is to destroy it. The 1965 Immigration Act was purposely put in place, and its idea was conscious to destroy WASP America.

According then to Catholic thought, this Law is Illegitimate. It also makes the America government illegitimate. If the politicians starts off with "of the People, by the People, and for the People", this law of 1965 is attacking the very people of the country. What government genocides its own people?

And yet, what religious person, what Catholic, has called that out? None.

Everything after that is illegitimate. That a Government genocides its own---just plain disgusting. It is an act of Treason. All people who were granted "citizenship" by this Act are null and void. That foreigners get citizenship thru an act of genocide....Wow.

The whole thing is a joke. That America is "of the People, By the People, and (((really)))) """"For the People"""""???? Really? It's all one big joke. And that people with Ph.Ds continue this charade of a country---is just downright disgusting. And when America is gone---all the Churches in my opinion need to be closed--for what good are they? Is anyone protecting us from Genocide? No---they are all pushing it! Yea--a lot of that Brotherly love going around. I feeeeellll the luuuuvvvvvvv. I have so much Brotherly luuv that I must genocide my race! It's all a joke.

bmiller said...

@W.LindsayWheeler,

Too bad they don't teach the foundations of Western Civilization in high school especially the history of Western philosophy. It seems they start with Descartes and ignore everything before him.

Regarding America though, it was never set up to be a kingdom ruled by a philosopher king. It was apparent though, that the founders knew the pitfalls of democracies and concentrations of power.

So as you pointed out, it was not really anything pulled straight out of history but more of an experiment. Maybe it's not going so well at the moment.

However, it was set up to allow for changes to the rules of government and even the constitution itself peacefully. Let's all hope we can remain peaceful during this time of division.

This is the section of the Summa Theologica where Aquinas discusses how a nation is to treat foreigners, whether they are passing through, are staying for an extended amount of time or wish to actually become citizens. It sounds similar to the way America has actually set up the visa and immigration system.

W.LindsayWheeler said...

@bmiller. Modern republicanism ended Western Civilization. The Atheist Thomas Paine recognized that. America and France both underwent revolution to bring about modern republicanism. Modern republicanism is 180 degrees different from classical republicanism. (Remember keep the name, i.e. republic, but change the definition underneath.)

Hegel ended traditional Western philosophy and so has ended Western culture. Hegel was a Kabbalist, part of the Hermetic tradition. And now, I can point to Kant as well. We don't live in Western culture nor in Western civilization. Look at the motto of America "Novus Ordo Saecularum". New Order of the Ages. (For the real definition of a republic and the transformation of the West, q.v. The Classical definition of a republic 5th rev )

There is no problem with a foreigner here and a foreigner there. But thousands, millions are an invasion. I point to the story of Sampson, where the hundreds of thousands of Philistines settled in amongst the Hebrews. The Spirit of the Lord descended upon Sampson to start a war to drive the Philistines out.

The 1965 Immigration Act has nothing to do with the Bible nor St. Thomas. Furthermore, none of us Europeans were in Egypt. Israel is a special case unlike other nations. Some rules were specific to Israel, qua Israel. The part, "you were once sojourners in the land of Egypt" doesn't apply to us. The purpose of the 1965 Immigration Act was to destroy WASP America by ethnic dilution. Nowhere does the Bible condone that.

So if it is your contention that America's 1965 Immigration Act and its visa program is built on the precepts of the Bible---please show the evidence. But I have evidence that the purpose was to rebuild the Tower of Babel. That is clearly wrong to do by the Bible.

So please do tell me at what point does immigration leads to genocide? Are we to preserve our people for the future, or are we to die out, or be miscegenated out? Is the Anglo-Saxon supposed to extinguish himself? Is that the plan?

Legion of Logic said...

My great grandmother was a full blooded Cherokee and I've never lived in Europe. Guess I have no nation and will not have everlasting life.

W.LindsayWheeler said...

Before the 1965 Immigration Act, we had in America 562 Indian nations, Africans, Japanese and Chinese, along with Italians, Greeks and Jews. Is that NOT ENOUGH diversity?

We needed more?!?

So now we have Pakis, 30,000 Somalis in Minnesota, my town in Battle Creek is now flowing with Burmese, the town south of us is full of Arabs. Then, Bmiller, you talk about "Western Culture" and "Western Civilization" and what do the Burmese, Pakis and the Arabs have to do with Western Culture and Civilization? Are they going to read Cicero? Aristotle? St. Thomas Aquinas? Will they even read the Bible? Ohh, we talk about America being a "Christian" nation and so we bring in thousands upon thousands whose culture has nothing to do with the Bible and we expect to preserve and keep America's Christian culture?

Are you out of your freakin' mind?

Explain to me ONE good reason we need All these people in America? Please explain why we have Ethopians, Nigerians, Guatamaleans, Nicaruaguans, Burmese, Pakis, Asian Indians, Bangledeshis! Why?

Did we not have enough Diversity? We needed more diversity? When is this going to stop? Or is the answer---It WILL NEVER STOP?

Can those Ivory Tower Ph.Ds explain that. These towering Intellects of Know-it-alls. These Moral Paragons of Righteous Social Justice Indignation tell us at what point does it end? We need all these people, WHY?

SteveK said...

If you import millions of non-western non-Christian people, don't be surprised when the culture becomes predominately non-western and non-Christian. It's happening in the UK and the USA isn't too far behind. Sad!

bmiller said...

@W.LindsayWheeler,

It sounds like the US was set up in a way you disagree with from the beginning, so current immigration laws won't fix that.
Aquinas wrote that it is legitimate for a nation to regulate who gets to come to the country and who gets to become a citizen. He wasn't explicit on the regulations, but held that a nation has a right to perserve it's identity.

Historically, Americans were more worried about non-Europeans immigrating to the US and periodically updated the laws to regulate who could come in and who couldn't. Seems like this is generally in line with what Aquinas wrote.


Immigration laws have historically changed when immigrant populations were around 14% of overall population.


We've seen public opinion change regarding immigration since 9/11 in the US. So once again there is strong sentiment to limit immigration until the present group of immigrants can assimilate. Here is a short article on the history of immigration and immigration laws in the US.

W.LindsayWheeler said...

@bmiller. What does the Virtue of Righteousness teach, bmiller? It teaches to preserve. It teaches duty to Fatherland, blood and soil. What is Zionism? A Nationalist ideology based on Blood, i.e. Jewish blood, descended from Abraham and Soil, Palestine. They can have a Blood and Soil ideology and I can not? What is good for the Gander---Is not good for the Goose?

Yes, I've returned to the Old Order. My duty and Loyalty belong to the Old Order---not to the false construct of Americanism--to an ideology that destroyed the Old Order.

What is the First Law in the Bible? What is the Will of God? God placed man in the Garden to "cultivate and Keep it". (Genesis 2:15) In the LXX, the 'keep' is the Greek "phylassein". It means to guard. It is a military term.

What is a Nation? But a Garden. What is the Earth? God's Garden. God is a Farmer. What does Scripture say? "And He will gather His wheat into the barn". (Matthew 3:12) Who has a barn but a Farmer. We are to cultivate and KEEP. That is the ideology, true ideology of conservatism.

Everybody seeks "social justice", which is not true justice but Cultural Marxism and its values. I seek Retributive Justice. Does NOT Justice require the righting of wrongs? Or do we skip over that? Treason has been committed. How do you reverse Genocide by subterfuge? That people should be rewarded with the effects of poisoned fruit? The 1965 Immigration Act is Illegal, against the Common Good. Are we to let by-gones be by-gones? And in this case the Genocide of America continues? Treason is at the same level as Blasphemy. It is a very heinous crime. Our society is filled with people who practice and engage in Treason without any correction! Where's the TRUE Justice in America? That traitors be left alone? And does not Justice require the reversing of wrongs? If that doesn't happen---there is NO Justice in America.

It says in the Preamble of the US Constitution [QUOTE] promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity {/QUOTE}

The General Welfare? Really? We are being genocided by our government--and that is Welfare? That Muslims are killing Americans in this country? And that "The General Welfare"? And what about "Our Posterity"? Whose this country for? Foreigners or OUR Posterity? How do you have liberty if someone controls your destiny? The 1965 Immigration Act is not only stealing OUR posterity from our future generations but it is attacking, damaging, changing OUR posterity! Our Destiny. How does that work? "Ourselves" and what is that Posterity belong to? The future generations of OURSELVES. Who is betraying that? If the Preamble shows that the US Government is betraying us and genociding us--is not the US Constitution Dead? And is not the so-called social compact over? There is NO society in America anymore. How can you have a Society with Individualism? That is an oxymoron. A society of Individuals? How can you have a Society without Justice? And when America is a Masonic republic, a Liberal state, is it not an oxymoron right out the gate? The chickens are coming home to roost. "Throw out Nature with a Pitchfork, and yet She shall return". God is the Author of the Natural Law and He is sitting in Heaven going "No Way, Mr. Liberal". The Muslim is not going to be beholden to Liberal/Marxist ideology, he means to take this place over. Life is War. Nature kills off the weak. And the Northern European has shown his weakness and Nature is killing the Northern European off. The Liberal/Masonic/Marxist ideology is genociding us Europeans.

bmiller said...

@W.LindsayWheeler,

If you notice, regarding immigration, I'm only pointing out that Aquinas wrote that nations have the right to control who comes into the nation and the rules for that. Unless you're against immigration full stop, we aren't in disagreement. On the other hand, I don't think I've seen anyone here defend open borders. It would be interesting to see what others think would be reasonable immigration laws and why though.

America has loosened and tightened immigration rules throughout it's history and it appears things are moving in the direction of tightening the rules again. I didn't notice it before, but you can see from the chart that laws get more restrictive around the time where immigrants are about 14% of the population as we are now. Germany is at about 9% first generation immigrants and it's causing political change. Maybe you are witnessing the Natural Law in action where societies reach a limit of how many immigrants they can peacefully absorb.

Yes, I've returned to the Old Order. My duty and Loyalty belong to the Old Order---not to the false construct of Americanism--to an ideology that destroyed the Old Order.

Let me know when you find the Old Order. I'm kind of stuck where I am.

But it may help to remember that the Roman Empire became Christian and then fell to pagan invasions. Vandals were at the gates of Hippo as St Agustine died. Then slowly Christianity reclaimed Europe and it became Christendom. It the Saints, not the politicians that made it happen. Better to imitate the Saints than the politicians.

W.LindsayWheeler said...

Yes Bmiller. It starts with correcting the mindsets of Christians first and foremost and fighting heresy and modern errors.

Jesus Christ taught us to pray with the "Our Father". Jesus formed the prayer around, "Thy Kingdom come, THY WILL BE DONE ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN". The Kingdom of God. If you are for democracy, how can you live in the Kingdom of God? How does a Kingdom work? God says "Jump", and a good Christian says, "How High, Sir!". (That's how my parents educated me.)

Second, God's Will is to be implemented on the Earth. Well, does not the Bible teach that Nations are to exist? Did not God create ALL the nations of the earth? Did not God destroy the Tower of Babel? What is the Consistent teaching of the Bible and the Natural Law?

Nations are meet and right.

What do nations have? Homogeneity. maybe with a little diversity. But Homogeneity of at 80 -90% of a population. Iceland has 99%.

A Christian prays, "Thy Will be Done". Not what the Masons want. Not what liberals want. Not what Marxists want. God's Will be done. That is what the Bible is there for!

It seems to me that the Bible is pretty d... clear.

Our we not clear on what a Christian is? First, he gets right with God, that is called salvation where we Acknowledge Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior. Next, the Second thing a Christian does ----is----Doing the Will of God. That is where the Bible and Virtue comes in.

W.LindsayWheeler said...

Bangladesh nationals at Mexican US Border

How do Bangladeshis arrive in Mexico?

Starhopper said...

The greatest danger facing Christianity today is not secularism, it is not atheism, it is not heresy, it is not persecution (except in specific countries, such as North Korea or Pakistan), it is not even indifference. It is what C.S. Lewis called (in his book The Screwtape Letters) "Christianity and ...".

Christianity and pacifism (or income equality, or conservatism, or abortion, or the 2nd Amendment, or environmentalism, or young Earth creationism, or same sex "marriage", or.. yes, even "nation") is always courting with disaster. Especially when people start creating litmus tests, such as "You cannot call yourself a Christian if you vote for a pro-choice politician" or "If you're a gun owner, you'll never enter Heaven" or "You must support Trump or you're going to hell" or "You have to be against Capitalism in order to be right with Christ." (I've heard every one of those, and quite a few others.)

The problem is that whatever comes after the "and" inevitably becomes more important that what is before - namely Christ. Now there is no problem with (for instance) a good Christian either supporting or opposing increased gun regulation. In fact, it's a good thing if his stand on the issue springs from and is infused with his Christian faith - as long as he understands that it only springs from it, and is not part of it, and that a person who begs to differ can very well be just as good a Christian (or maybe even better).

Christianity is a Big Tent religion. It embraces Democrats, Republicans, Libertarians, Greens, Independents, Whigs, capitalists, monarchists, socialists (but not Communists), and even fascists (but definitely not Nazis or neo-Nazis).

W.LindsayWheeler said...

LXX Wisdom 7:25, "For God loveth none but him that dwelleth with Wisdom".

Jorge G. Castañeda, in his book Manana Forever?: Mexico and the Mexicans remarks:
(From a reviewer {R. W. Levesque} As the author notes, the [Mexican has a] relative lack of interest in the "rule of law" does not mean it's a lawless state, only that there are traditions that allow Mexico to function in a different way than the rule-of-law."

Now, we have had over 60 million abortions of Americans only to transport in some 59 million Mexicans. More are arriving daily.

Now America is based fundamentally on "The Rule of Law". How does one operate a country on the rule of law when now a third of the country---has NO concept of the Rule of Law! How do we keep our specific Anglo-Saxon culture of the Rule of Law, following directions, with non-Europeans who work on a different cultural basis?

Second, we are importing millions of Mexicans who have a chip on their shoulder due to the fact that we stole their land, such as Arizona, Texas, New Mexico and California. How does that sit? We stole their land, and now---what? You think you are going to live "peacefully" with them? What is La Raza (The Race)? It is a Revanchist organization that wants to take the Southwest America and return it back to Mexico. I mean here in Battle Creek, MI, an Hispanic city commissioner launched into a tirade against whites by saying "You stole this land".

How is this going to work?

We are told to use Prudence. Prudence is a part of Wisdom. Moving millions of hostile foreigners into this land is a foolish act. It is not the act of Wisdom but of so-called the Gospel of Love and Good Intentions. But this is what Scripture says: Prov. 14:12 "There is a way that seems to be right with men, but the ends of it reach into the depths of Hell". In other words, "The Road to Hell is paved with Good Intentions".

Diversity + Proximity = Violence

Where is the Prudence being practiced by our government and religious leaders? Can you have life without Prudence? And yet everyday, and in this situation we want to adhere to this Gospel of Love but what will the fruits of that be?

What is the secret to Particularity? Every Particularity has a UNIQUE value to it. All minerals are one but there are hundreds of minerals with unique values. Lead has a particular value, Gold has a particular value. Horses are one, but each particularity, Quarter Horse, Belgian have different values. Humans are one, The sexes are particularities with different values/aspects to them.

What we see is the willy-nilly mixing of all sorts of things not paying attention to the particulars. Is it Wise to bring in millions of hostile people? People who we took land from? Is it Wise to bring in millions of people who have NO concept of the Rule of Law into a land that has a Rule of Law?

Do farmers act on their farms with total disregard for Particulars? Do they? You will soon find a failed business. It's idiotic. Every farmer engages in Prudence. That's Wisdom.

Does the Gospel of Love command foolishness? To act foolishly?

And then to top this all off, these newly arrived Mexicans attend Ethnic Studies classes at colleges and learn how the White Man abused them and shat upon them.

Today, Jim Acosta that famous NBC reporter talking about Trump supporters---The elevator doesn't go all the way to the top for these folks.

Really?

Does anybody have a clue on what they are doing? That I have "Good Intentions", everybody come to America, ---and it is all going to turn out good? Where is Prudence? Well, Prudence is Racist and so we can't engage in Prudence. America is not only a Failed state, it is an Idiocracy.

W.LindsayWheeler said...

@Starhopper. Please consider these two statements by Christ. First, "Not all who say Lord, Lord, will enter into the Kingdom of God BUT ONLY THE ONE WHO DOES the Will of the Father" Matthew 7:21.

Second, "13 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the way that leads to life, and only a few find it. " Matthew 7:14

Jesus said "Few" and only those who "Do the Will of the Father".

There is NO Big Tent Christianity.

Legion of Logic said...

Jesus said "Few" and only those who "Do the Will of the Father".

In the context of this subject, what must an American Christian do to enter into the Kingdom? Specifics please.

W.LindsayWheeler said...

@Legion of Logic. These are not hard or fast, there can be tweaking. These are my advice.

In the context of nations. One must not engage in any form of soft genocide: i.e. saying nation/race is a social construct, denying that nation/race exists, promote diversity/multiculturalism, advancing Open Borders, Open Society, using the word "racist", saying "Racism is evil", etc. The forms of genocide is laid out in this article The Many Forms of Genocide: Hard and Soft

One must follow the dictates of Virtue as St. Peter lays out. The Virtue of Righteousness says "duty to Fatherland, Duty to Family, Duty to Departed".

Many Americans are Heinz 57. You said you are part Cherokee. Pick a side. Be a Cherokee or be whatever else of your ethnicity and do your Duty. For instance, return to the reservation, be Cherokee and be the best d.... Cherokee there. Marry into the Tribe. Support the sovereignty of your Tribe with a secondary lesser duty to the United States obeying the laws of the land and supporting the sovereignty of the US. Your duties are hierarchical. Or reverse the course.

If your a Northern European, support the cohesiveness of the Anglo-Saxon character of America and adhere to the Virtue of Righteousness: "to preserve the ancestral customs and established laws". That means support of the 1925 Nationalities Act is still the Law of the Land. Repudiation of the 1965 Immigration Act.

If Southern European or other of long-standing minority, the story of Ruth Moabitess is key. When she immigrated to Israel, she told her mother-in-law, "Your God will be my God, and your people will be my people". All people of immigrant status, their allegiance is to the Anglo-Saxon, Northern European that built this country.

If you are here illegally, you need to return to your home country.

The Old Order is the Natural Order of nation/race. The Novus Ordo is the Masonic/Liberal/Marxist idea of rebuilding the Tower of Babel. We have to return to the Old Order and teach others to do the same.

America is a farrago. It is Titanic mess. We have to reverse course.

W.LindsayWheeler said...

There were some multi-ethnic states.

Medieval Jerusalem had a Latin quarter, a Jewish quarter, a Muslim quarter and an Armenian/Greek quarter. Each preserving its religious and racial particularity.

Switzerland is a multi-ethnic state with German, Italian, French and Romansch cantons.

The Dorians when invading certain areas created caste societies in Crete and in Laconia. The indigenous people continued their own religious/ethnic customs although modified by the demands of the Dorian hegemony.

The Ayrans in India did the same creating a caste society.

The Anglo-Saxons created caste society in England of "Those who prayed, those who fought, and those that worked" (and due to the violence of the nature of the Anglo-Saxon drove the Bretons to migrate to France; they drove out the indigenous people from before them when they conquered England. In turn, when the Normans invaded England they just took over the leadership positions across England.)

Europeans create caste or federal societies when mixed. And some European societies are completely homogeneous like Iceland, and once-upon-a-time Norway, Sweden, Finland.

America with her China towns, the Mexican barrios, the Creole in New Orleans, the black ghettos and the Catholic enclaves of Italians, Irish and Germans (which were all destroyed by the US Government in the 70s in forced de-segregation policies).

In Spain, you have the Basques and the rest of the Spainards.

Whatever the particularity, there must be ***integrity**** and cohesion. That is how a particularity survives and thrives.

W.LindsayWheeler said...

@Starhopper: "Christianity is a Big Tent religion. It embraces Democrats, Republicans, Libertarians, Greens, Independents, Whigs, capitalists, monarchists, socialists (but not Communists), and even fascists (but definitely not Nazis or neo-Nazis).

There are no fascists in heaven. The definition of a fascist is

Socialist + Nationalist = Fascist

The other word for Fascist is National Socialist. One HAS to be a socialist combined with nationalist feelings to be a Fascist. (I have over 30 books on Nazism/Fascism including Zeev Sternhell's The Birth of Fascist Ideology) The term "National Socialism" was coined by Czech Socialists in Bohemia. (q.v. Liberty or Equality Erik von Kuehnelt-Leddihn) They rejected Internationalism and wanted to promote Czech nationalism while remaining socialists. 'Nazi' is an acronym for "National Socialist". It was Socialist Germans in Bohemia that brought that term to Germany. Hitler did not create either the term 'Fascist' nor "National Socialist".

National Socialism was a reaction to International Socialism. Hitler said, "I am not only the Conqueror but also the executor of Marxism stripped of its Jewish Talmudic Dogma". Hitler also said, "We are the full counterpart of the French Revolution".

As defined by the book Elements of Socialism, Fargo, (1912), all Socialists are idealists. An Idealist is an Utopian.

All Socialists are utopian whether Internationalist or Nationalist.

Underneath all forms of Socialism is Nihilism, Gnosticism.

Almost all the things you named above, except Monarchists and capitalists, are Gnostic. Libertarianism is an Individualist ideology and therefore is genocidal. There are no libertarians in heaven. It is a Gnostic and it is anti-nation.

Capitalism is neither here nor there on the saved thing except it is loosely based on "Thou shalt not steal"--thus intimating private property. Capitalists may be Gnostic.

The only thing for sure is a Monarchist. In order to have a Monarchy, one has to have a nation/race. A Monarchist recognizes and obeys Nature. Monarchy is part of the Old Order, part of the Natural Order. A monarchist does not hate hierarchy. A monarchist is completely in accord with Christianity automatically. Jesus Christ is a Prince of the Royal House of David. God the Father is a Monarch. Jesus when he returns will be King. He will be the King of Kings, below the Emperor, God Almighty. (Fredrick the Great and the Austrian Emperors of late were compromised with Freemasonry and therefor not true monarchs; they damaged their own countries by their adoption of error; with the adoption of the tenets of Freemasonry, they too became Gnostic.)

One can not hate hierarchy. The hatred of hierarchy is a sign of Gnosticism, the hatred of Nature. All Nature exhibits hierarchy. God put hierarchy in Nature. You can't hate that. One can not hate the things of Nature.

Legion of Logic said...

So you advocate that the United States convert to a theocracy?

W.LindsayWheeler said...

@Legion of Logic. Personally, I prefer that America return to its Bible in the classroom, Prayer in School, laws against homosexuality and abortion, oversight of Hollywood, laws based on the Bible, laws against miscegenation, etc., the old American system before the disastrous 1960s.

Part I

Nature abhors a vacuum. That is a Natural Law.

Yes, this is the second half of the OP. Either you have a theocracy or you will have its evil doppelganger; either you have a true theocracy or you have a choice of pseudo-theocracies. Marxism sets up its own pseudo-theocracy. National Socialism set up its own pseudo-theocracy. Secularists set up their own pseudo-theocracy. As every person is a proselytizer of some sort, with their proselytizing, they also promote some sort of '-cracy'.

What Nature creates in a biosphere is a feedback loop. The plants and animals and environment support each other in a type of feedback loop. A man's culture is like a biosphere which forms a feedback loop that brings with it support and nurture. One Sunday service does not make a Christian. There has to be support throughout the life of a Christian throughout the week. This is what a Theocracy is---a feedback loop, support and nurture.

What is the purpose of the Christian? What is one more element in God's Will? God wants His Barn full of saved people. He wants Heaven Full and overflowing. That means barriers to sin must be put up to help people along the path to righteousness.

Much like a farmer who pulls the weeds out of the crops to grow. Farmers increase their yield by making favorable conditions for their crops to grow. The Same Paradigm needs to exist for Christians. Christians must set up a Christian society to "increase the yield" of Christians and their faith.

Second, Scripture has it: "he who honors me, I will honor, and he who dishonors me, I will dishonor". This is important because we, as Christians---are duty bound, i.e. duty to God in the Virtue of Righteousness to Honor God at all times. In the Spartan and Roman republics, church and state went together. The Success of these states to them was that they Honored the Gods at all times. That brought success. If the state dishonors God, then God dishonors the state. If we want blessings and good things, we need to give Honor and worship to God. As the individual must be pious---the State must as well! The State Must be pious. Piety is reinforced in a feedback loop from Society to individual and from individual to Society.

W.LindsayWheeler said...

Part II

The English Anglican divine, W. R. Inge, a classicist, writes that

“If we had to choose one man as the founder of Catholicism as a theocratic system, we should have to name neither Augustine nor St. Paul, still less Jesus Christ, but Plato, who in the Laws sketches out with wonderful prescience the condition for such a polity, and the form which it would be compelled to take.”

The English Classicist J. Burnet, for example, notes that “…The Platonist tradition underlies the whole of western civilization”.

Plato, in his book the Laws, writes that Atheism is a malady. He counsels that if an atheist is found, they are to be interdicted, i.e. arrested, held in quarantine for about five years in order to convert them. If they are reticent, will not change, they are to be in the deep of the night, silently and covertly, without attention quietly put to death. This was probably the laws of the Doric states in Crete and Laconia.

For the innate nature of an Atheist is hatred to God and to acts of piety. They bring danger to the religious polity. The history of the Enlightenment is a good case in point of the Wisdom of Plato. If Church authorities interdicted the atheists among them starting with Machiavelli, we wouldn't be in the condition we are in now.

As the individual must exhibit the Virtues and Piety is a Virtue, so must the State have Virtue. The state must also exhibit piety and be virtuous. How can the part be virtuous if the whole is not virtuous? Do we not learn by example? So the state leads by example.

Did not God destroy Sodom and Gomorrah for their vice? Theirs was a Theocracy of Vice. Socrates taught in the Republic, in order to create a good and beautiful people, one must have an environment of the Good and the Beautiful. The State must exhibit this Good and Beautiful to create in its parts the Good and the Beautiful.

Starhopper said...

For reasons unfathomable to me, I decided to check out Wheeler's profile, and was amused to find that he listed amongst his favorite books The Greek Way by Edith Hamilton. Now I happen to like that book as well. It's on my bookshelf, and I've read it several times.

So why do I find Wheeler's admiration for this book so amusing? Because he's on record as advocating "laws against homosexuality" (his words). Is he unaware of the fact that Edith Hamilton was a homosexual (a lesbian)? Her "partner" was Doris Fielding Reid. They lived together for more than 30 years.

Dan Gillson said...

Hey gang! I used to comment here regularly. I no longer actively participate on this forum, but from time to time I stop by the check out how the conversation is going. I've noticed that the presence of unhinged, racist troll Lindsay Wheeler is being tolerated, so I thought I'd leave you all with the time I completely trashed him in an argument. Yes, I'm being petty, but Wheeler is a dick and he deserves it.

Cheers!

Starhopper said...

Thanks for that link, Dan. So it seems that Wheeler was a neo-nazi white supremacist dickhead as far back as 2012. So there's probably little chance of showing him the error of his ways at this late date. The cake appears to be well and truly baked. As to ostracising him... well, let him spew his tinfoil hat theories about the Master Race. His every posting only goes to show what a total nutcase he is. But, might I suggest that no one respond to him. Do not feed the troll. He'll eventually get bored and peddle his filth elsewhere.

Dan Gillson said...

Trolls be trollin'. Bloviators be bloviatin'. We just straight chillin', Starhopper. #highfives

W.LindsayWheeler said...

I'm not the only one who sees the error of Gnosticism in modern man. "Cambria will not yield" BlogSpot, has a very poetic insight on the goings-on:

But there is a great divide, an impassable divide, between the European Everyman and the Gnostics of mad-dog liberalism and conservative-liberalism. The Gnostics of both camps have built their own Towers of Babel from which they hurl thunderbolts at the other tower. Both groups of Gnostic Babylonians enjoin the people to enter their camp, but no matter which camp the European Everyman enters he gives up that which makes him a man – his blood connection to the living God in and through his kith and kin. Look at the wasteland of 20th century conservatism. Is there any room for Anthony Jacob’s heartfelt plea for the survival of his people, the Christ-bearing race? No, there is not. All we see are proposals to protect democracy and/or our Greco-Roman-Judeo Christian traditions. But our people are not a democratic abstraction, nor is our God a mathematical abstraction, He is a God of spirit and blood, He is “our Jesus.”

There is nothing that can excuse a European who goes over to Gnosticism.
(ref: The Vision of Europe and His people

Both the democrats and the Anglo-sphere republicans are two camps of Gnostics arguing at each other while both are lost in the tangled webs of the Atheist Enlightenment.

bmiller said...

Discussing differences among human populations is controversial, but there certainly is an increased interest in the subject with 23andMe and the other DNA testing companies advertising everywhere.

Regardless, there is an academic discipline that studies human biodiversity.

For those interested, I found this blog site that (used to) has (have) posts on European biodiversity. Before reading this I didn't know what the hajnal line was. No religious or policitcal bias that I can detect.

She has stopped posting some time ago, but here is the home page.

Relevant to this discussion is that within Christendom, there were always a range of customs/behaviors/loyalty/unity/diversity within which each locality was distinct but was still considered part of Europe.

bmiller said...

hajnal line

W.LindsayWheeler said...

There are big differences among human populations/particularities just as there are in the Natural world.

To add to bmiller's content, there is such a thing as Polylogicism. The French linguist Georges Dumezil, while studying Indo-European languages, discovered a pattern in the language, which he called Trifunctionality. Indo-Europeans do things in Threes.

One can see this in Dorian culture. We also see this in Plato who said that there are Three sovereignties which led him to create a triad of Nous, Demiurge, World Soul, a prefigurement of the Christian Trinity. Europeans are pre-set to see things in Three.

This is the reason Christianity took off in Europe and among Europeans. Christianity has an affinity to European Polylogicism.

Hillaire Belloc said, "The Faith is Europe, and Europe is the Faith". He is not wrong. This is why we see an attack and the fomenting of soft genocide against Europeans. In order to kill The Faith, one must kill off the European.

Furthermore, Christianity rests on Orthodoxa, right opinion. Christianity rests on the ability of knowing Truth and separating it from error. This is only possible with Paramenides principle of non-contradiction which is specific to the European mindset. Middle Eastern peoples have a different take on truth. Truth is an emotional response not a logical construction. Dissimulation is quite the norm in the Middle East.

Polylogicism is very real and it is a tragedy that Christians are committing not only suicide of their nation but of their religion as well. Liberal Christians with their agenda of diversity and multiculturalism are killing the Christian religion. Kill Europe and one kills The Faith.

But then that is the purpose of the Modern world. The attack upon race/nation is an attack upon the existence of the European and hence his religion of orthodox Christianity.

Gnosticism is Eastern.

W.LindsayWheeler said...

It is amazing to behold that the Left, Liberals, Marxists all just don't come out and say it. Do you notice that all the critics here against nationalism, they never have put out a positive agenda that they are promoting. Has any one of them said, "Yes, we are rebuilding the Tower of Babel and here is the quotes from Scripture and the Natural Law that back that up". No. All they do is throw adhominem attacks of racist and bigot. What this shows is their lack of honesty, truthfulness, virtue. Do they tell you the telos of their agenda? Do they come out truthfully and honestly and tell us to our faces that we are here to race-mix and destroy all things about race/nation. Do they say, "We have no intention of preserving the integrity of any nation/race"?

I asked a question, that has gone unanswered here. I pointed out that America had diversity before the 1965 Immigration Act, why do we need more? So somebody give me an answer. I have answered a lot of my critics answers---but when I ask them a question---all I get is silence.

Evil requires darkness. Their stuff is not to see the light of day. They can attack but they don't ever reveal their real agenda.

I'm a 'troll', another adhominem attack. Here is a Protestant website, Faith and Heritage. From their website:

1. A Biblical Defense of Ethno-nationalism

2. Who Does America Belong to

3. The Reality of Race

I'm Catholic/Orthodox. Sadly, there are no Catholic websites defending nation/race. There are Orthodox websites.

The information is there. Notice that the critics of nationalism can't produce a coherent paper on their subject. Or do they just borrow from Masons, and Marxists? Or the heresy of Sola Gospel to prove their point?

Ever since I joined the military long time ago, I got a crash course in Protestantism which I loved. The first word out of their mouths was "What does Scripture teach". And yet the multiculturalists here can not use the Old Testament for their argument. What happened?

Please answer my question, "Why do you want more diversity in America"?

Joe Hinman said...


Blogger Dan Gillson said...
Hey gang! I used to comment here regularly. I no longer actively participate on this forum, but from time to time I stop by the check out how the conversation is going. I've noticed that the presence of unhinged, racist troll Lindsay Wheeler is being tolerated, so I thought I'd leave you all with the time I completely trashed him in an argument. Yes, I'm being petty, but Wheeler is a dick and he deserves it.

Hey Dam thanks for stopping by, nice to meet you. I figured he was a Nazi but it is enough to see he's a racist and that was apparent from his first post since he said MLK was a commie,

I always think some trauma in childhood makes these people willing to identify with the essence of evil like Nazizm

Joe Hinman said...

Ever since I joined the military long time ago, I got a crash course in Protestantism which I loved. The first word out of their mouths was "What does Scripture teach". And yet the multiculturalists here can not use the Old Testament for their argument. What happened?

We grew up and developed a scholarly and sophisticated veiw of the Bible. But even a naive acceptance of it does not justify racism. God never tells Israel you are superior racially, people of other races were to free to become Israelite some think Joshua was not born Hebrew.They accepted Rahab just for helping them she was a pagan whore.

Please answer my question, "Why do you want more diversity in America"?


Because our founding document says all men are created equal (,meaning all humans)

Joe Hinman said...

the disparagement of the pagan in OT was due to idolatry not racial character.

Starhopper said...

Racism is America's original sin, and we have not yet been redeemed of its stench. The (literally) insane idea that one's own shit smells better than that of someone with a different ethnic heritage is the one thing that prevents us from moving beyond the follies of past generations, and accepting all residents of this great and beautiful country as equal partners in our Grand Experiment. The United States of America is (other than perhaps the Papal States) the first and so far only country founded not upon a race, not upon a dynasty, not upon an ideology, but upon an idea - that all men (read: human beings) are created equal.

So our foundation principle is (sadly) better that our subsequent history? So what? Until someone comes up with a better statement than the opening lines of the Declaration of Independence, I'll gladly and proudly stand with America as she is, with all her many warts and failings, confident that the "better angels of our nature" will win out in the end - as long as we keep believing in her.

bmiller said...

@W.LindsayWheeler,

It seems you have lots of complaints, but I'm having trouble sorting them out.

Christianity began and spread in the Roman Empire which was composed of numerous (former) nations and ethnicities.
So clearly, Christianity can be embraced by all types of peoples, which of course is the message of Christianity.....that Christ is the salvation of the human race. So, not only should Christians believe that all humans can be saved, but all Christians should spread that news to the ends of the earth. Christianity is spreading in China and Africa now.

I don't think would deny that Christ died for all peoples, whether European, African, Asian America, etc. So why the emphasis on people's ethnicity?

But beyond that, it seems that on the one hand you reject how America was founded from the beginning and on the other you are complaining that America has drifted from it's founding principles. I don't see the point of complaining loudly that America is drifting from it's foundation when you think the foundation was wrong in the first place.

W.LindsayWheeler said...

@Hinman. It was communist strategy to use nationalism, race politics, to stir up trouble. Here is a paper that references FBI reports that King was mentored by a communist, Levinson, and hired other communists. Declassified FBI paper reveals communist associates One can see the two faces of communism/Marxism when one looks at the Vietnam War, the Communists organized a revolution against French Colonial control over Vietnam. Yet, Communism avers nationalism. Nationalism is used to tear down Empires and "Imperialism" and once they are done using that, they start promoting Internationalism. MLK, maybe not a member, but a fellow traveler. Just the same.

On the other hand, Mr. Hinman, you are very used to slandering people aren't you? To be Nazi requires one being a socialist. I am not. And just to show how bananas you are, Greek War of Independence "The Greek Orthodox Church played a pivotal role in the preservation of national identity, the development of Greek society and the resurgence of Greek nationalism. And..."According to tradition and several written sources, on March 25 (6 April, Greg.Calendar), the Feast of Annunciation, 1821, Bishop Germanos proclaimed the national uprising against the Ottoman Empire and blessed the flag of the revolution at the Monastery of Agia Lavra".

I guess the ol' bishop was a Nazi! Ohhhh, look Nationalism in 1821! Greek Nazism ain't it! 100 years before the Beer Hall Putsch! The Greeks were practicing Nazism before Hitler. And Zionism is Nationalism as well, but that is alright, ain't it, Mr. Hinman?

You do seem a little silly, don't you Mr. Hinman? The ONLY people allowed to immigrate to Israel are Jews. That's a little too Nazi, for me.

W.LindsayWheeler said...

@Hinman. I wish people who comment on a religious blog, would read the Bible. (hat tip to the Prots--I read my Bible from cover to cover; Catholics don't read it either)

Hinman writes: God never tells Israel you are superior racially

Au contraire, Mr. Hinman:

Deut. 26:19 "be above all nations as he made thee renowned and a boast."

Deut. 28.1 "Thy God shall set thee on high, above all the nations on earth."

Ex 19:5 "ye shall be a peculiar people above all nations".

Mr. Hinman, haven't you read your Talmud? There is all sorts of Jewish supremacism there!

All gentiles are considered Amalek.

Rabbinic laws intended for access by Judaic persons only, teach that goyim (gentiles) are malevolent. For this reason, the goyim are grouped together with those categories of criminals and transgressors who cannot act as a witness in a court (Shulhan Arukh: Hoshen Mishpat 34). Talmudical blogspot

And the Talmud teaches that Jesus is in Hell. I could go on and on about what is in the Talmud.

"A gentile who observes a day of rest deserves death. (BT Sanhedrin 58b)" (page 184)

"God is displeased when Jews show hospitality to gentiles. (BT Sanhedrin 104a)" (page 185)

"If a gentile loses something, a Jew may keep it, even if he knows the owner. (BT Baba Kamma 113b)" (page 185)

"All gentile children are animals. (BT Yebamoth 98a)" (page 196)

"Christians are allied with hell, and Christianity is worse than incest. (BT Avodah Zarah 17a)" (page 238)

"When the Messiah comes, he will destroy the Christians. (BT Sanhedrin99a)" (page 239)

Excerpts from Michael Hoffman's brilliant book Judaism's Strange Gods

So Mr. Hinman, you have your homework to do. So who's a Nazi now? Do you even know what you are talking about?

W.LindsayWheeler said...

Aristotle notes: "All things are either in Authority or in Subjection". All things.

We note that the Angels of God are, in Catholic thought in nine choirs, in a hierarchy. Archangels by their name denote rank over such things as guardian angels.

Hierarchy is throughout Nature.

LXX Ecclesiasticus XXXVI:10 (Breton translation and numbering)

"And all men are from the ground and Adam was created of earth. In much knowledge the Lord hath divided them and made their ways diverse. Some of them hath he blessed and exalted and some of them hath he sanctified and set near himself but some of them hath he cursed and brought low and turned out of their places."

So God makes some high and others he makes low. It's all right there. It also says "God divided them". What God has divided, let no man bring together! And this puts the lie to Jefferson's "All men are created equal". NO THEY ARE NOT. There is NO basis in Scripture, it has NO basis in Science, and No basis in Philosophy. It is just a made-up gobbledygook from the Christ-hater John Locke. All men are NOT created equal. That verse in Scripture disproves that. It is nothing more than a fantasy, an ideology that has no basis in reality. It is just all made up.

As Aristotle said, "All things are either in Authority or in Subjection". The Natural Law, i.e. Dorian philosophy, backs up what Scripture teaches. Some nations are better than other nations. History and the facts show that. Again, it goes to the Gnostic hatred of reality.

W.LindsayWheeler said...

@Starhopper. "Racism is America's original sin".

Says who? Upon what authority?

Last time I checked the Bible says nothing about Racsim. Is it in the 10 Commandments?

Last time I checked the Multivolume Oxford English Dictionary, 'racism's original definition, when it was coined as about "knowing that there are racial differences". And that is a sin how? I mean that is crazy. The word was coined to denote a person who recognized racial differences.

Now, if it was a truth, it would be a truth from the beginning. There were NO connotations of evil to it.

See, when additional baggage is added to the term many years later---then one is looking at Propaganda. Starhopper, I thought, claims he is Catholic. Him using this word shows that he is far from the Catholic Faith. He doesn't know what he is talking about.

Racism is NOT a sin. Never was---never will be. Whatever the hell it means anyway. Recognizing racial differences is NOT a sin. How buffoonish.

Starhopper said...

Here is the Catholic Faith, pure and crystal clear (excerpted from Gaudium et Exsultate, apostolic exhortation by Pope Francis (my emphasis):

102. We often hear it said that, with respect to relativism and the flaws of our present world, the situation of migrants, for example, is a lesser issue. Some Catholics consider it a secondary issue compared to the “grave” bioethical questions. That a politician looking for votes might say such a thing is understandable, but not a Christian, for whom the only proper attitude is to stand in the shoes of those brothers and sisters of ours who risk their lives to offer a future to their children. Can we not realize that this is exactly what Jesus demands of us, when he tells us that in welcoming the stranger we welcome him (cf. Mt 25:35)? Saint Benedict did so readily, and though it might have “complicated” the life of his monks, he ordered that all guests who knocked at the monastery door be welcomed “like Christ”,[85] with a gesture of veneration;[86] the poor and pilgrims were to be met with “the greatest care and solicitude”.[87]

103. A similar approach is found in the Old Testament: “You shall not wrong a stranger or oppress him, for you yourselves were strangers in the land of Egypt” (Ex 22:21). “When a stranger resides with you in your land, you shall not oppress him. The stranger who resides with you shall be to you as the citizen among you; and you shall love him as yourself; for you were strangers in the land of Egypt” (Lev 19:33-34). This is not a notion invented by some Pope, or a momentary fad. In today’s world too, we are called to follow the path of spiritual wisdom proposed by the prophet Isaiah to show what is pleasing to God. “Is it not to share your bread with the hungry and bring the homeless poor into your house; when you see the naked, to cover him, and not to hide yourself from your own kin? Then your light shall break forth like the dawn” (58:7-8).

Perhaps President Reagan's most famous line was "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" In the same spirit, I say, "Mr. Trump, don't build this wall!"

Starhopper said...

My apologies. My posting did not make it clear that the final paragraph is not part of the Papal Exhortation, but is rather my commentary on it.

W.LindsayWheeler said...

@bmiller.

Christianity began and spread in the Roman Empire which was composed of numerous (former) nations and ethnicities.
So clearly, Christianity can be embraced by all types of peoples,


I NEVER said that Christianity can not be embraced by all types of people. Christianity is for all. The part I said, which may or may not have to do with salvation, is that the Christianity lives on Orthodoxa, right opinion. Much of the heresies that afflicted Christianity have been in the East with non-European peoples. Orthodoxy of Christianity has been settled now essentially by the Church Fathers many who were Greek. The principle of non-contradiction is part of a linear black-n-white thinking that is singular to the European. Non-European nations should follow, have to follow the European foundation of Christianity and European leadership. The Leadership of the See of Rome should either be Italian or Greek and no other. The discernment of Truth, the Search of Truth must contain within itself non-contradiction. That is just ONE factor. Truth also rests on Consistency which in the Greek is similar to Harmony. The Devil is in the details. Pay close attention. Christianity is for all---but it's orthodoxy, it's doctrine, relies on non-contradiction. For instance, a Hindu thinks he can be a religious devout Hindu and also a Christian at the same time. The East suffers from Syncretism. Syncretism is the opposite of non-contradiction.


which of course is the message of Christianity.....that Christ is the salvation of the human race.

The use of words is very important. There is NO such thing as the "human race". One can say the Human Family, Mankind, Men, but not Human 'race'. Race means breed. Humans are not a breed among many other things that are bipedal. Humans are genus, not a breed, i.e. race. The word 'race' is for ethnicities. It is like saying the Human Nation; nation being synonymous with race. We don't say the Human ethnicity either. You need to use the correct terminology for the thing you are speaking about.

W.LindsayWheeler said...

@bmiller Part II

So why the emphasis on people's ethnicity?

Why is the Christian Church, The Catholic Church busy itself with genociding nations then? You are putting the cart before the horse. If the Church wasn't going around destroying us, I wouldn't be putting an emphasis on it! Furthermore, I'm not the one who started this, It was Masons and Marxist and Liberals who all thought about doing away with nations. This is just push back and trying to teach, correct error.

Race matters because there is value in every particularity. Why do you put an emphasis on putting salt on your meal instead of lead? One is just as good as the other? Right? Instead of salt---spread a little arsenic on your salad would you? Be truthful now. If race doesn't matter, then neither does arsenic matter! When it come to your meal---you distinguish and discriminate, but when race comes around, you stop doing what is normal and become blind, is that it? If you were consistent, put arsenic on your salad next time. Either Particularity matters---Or it doesn't. When it comes to Salt or Arsenic on your salad, Particularity matters. But when it comes to race---Particularity doesn't matter. This lack of consistency shows a double standard.

that on the one hand you reject how America was founded from the beginning and on the other you are complaining that America has drifted from it's founding principles.

That is because America at its beginning has a Janus face. The Janus paradigm is shown that radical Protestants allied themselves with atheists, i.e. Thomas Paine and paid attention to what he wrote. Thomas Jefferson had Masonic and Rosicrucian literature in his library. Error is always mixed with Truth. Yes, America as founded was founded upon an ideology of the Atheist Enlightenment. But then its Constitution stated it was for a certain people. The Symbol of America is Masonic, but John Jay who was not a Mason said this country was given to a people who descended from the same ancestors.

My observations of America are mixed because America's founding is a mixed bag. America is a farrago. Look up the word. It has a Janus face. Look up the metaphor.

W.LindsayWheeler said...

From Pope Pius XII to Pope Francis, they have all been heretics and apostates. Vatican II is also in big error.

"Welcome the stranger" is singular.

Thousands is an invasion.

What is going on is reverse colonization.

Under the color of that is Soft Genocide, Genocide by Ethnic dilution. This is how Starhopper condones genocide.

W.LindsayWheeler said...


@Starhopper. China had a Great Wall to keep out the hordes.

Israel has a wall.

Walls work.

bmiller said...

@W.LindsayWheeler,

It appears that you've concluded that all your fellow citizens are Masons if they support the constitution and that you're more Catholic than the pope. You imagine your's is a pure country and religion and you are the only inhabitant of both.

It must be lonely over there since you've come here to yell at everyone.

Starhopper said...

bmiller,

I wish there was a "like" button on this website, because I would certainly like yours!

W.LindsayWheeler said...

@bmiller. You know what. Because I did the d.... research. Have you read your Bible from cover to cover? Are you trained in true philosophy? Do you know the history of Western Civilization? Do you even know the definition of a true republic? Do you know the history of Christianity? Do you know the history and designs of International Socialism?

Have I not expressed my learning in all the massive quotes and citations in this thread. Only to be met with adhominem and disparging remarks. That is all you have.

As concerning Pope Pius XII. In his papal encyclical Summa Pontificatus, one runs into these and other things:

79. Or will there be treaties of peace, will the new international order at the end of this war be animated by justice and by equity towards all, by that spirit which frees and pacifies?

82. Once the bitterness and the cruel strifes of the present have ceased, the new order of the world, of national and international life, must rest no longer on the quicksands of changeable and ephemeral standards that depend only on the selfish interests of groups and individuals.

98. Unity, towards which, so many, answerable for the destiny of nations, look with regretful yearning as they experience from day to day the vanity of the very means in which once they had placed their trust! Unity,


What is this “new international order”? How did he know this a month and a half into the war? Unless he was privy to the designs of the elite of Western Europe.

To cut to the chase, Summa Pontificatus incorporates the teaching, ideas, and concepts of Freemasonry and International Socialism. Pope Pius XII and all the popes after him have adopted this---Globalization, Internationalism---the rebuilding the Tower of Babel! It is about “immantizing the eschaton”. It is a hatred of reality. It is also Nihilism.

The leadership, the Magesterium of the Catholic Church, is in full blown Gnosticism. Not only that, they have apostasized due to the fact that they have adopted the tenets of Jewish Messianism, the doing away with nations/races in order to bring about World Unity.

Please look up Masonry at the New Advent Catholic Encyclopaeddia website. It is from the 1910 Catholic Encyclopaedia. Fr. Gruber's excellent research on Masonry! It is all right there except the pertinent phrase "Brotherhood of Man".

Masonry has been condemned 11 times and yet every time they missed the core teaching of Freemasonry. As Freemasonry is Gnostic, the Catholic Church in adopting Masonic teachings has itself become Gnostic. "Unity" is the code word for Masonic goals.

Yes, I'm lonely, because I have not followed the multitude into evil.

W.LindsayWheeler said...

Just to make it easier for you: at the 1910 article on Masonry of the Catholic Encyclopaedia, Freemasonry teaches "the accidental divisions of mankind".

Scripture has it, "...and all the nations whom thou hast created".

God did NOT """accidentally""" create the nations of the earth. He PURPOSELY created them.

I can also and have done previously in this thread to prove that point by using the Natural Law of the Golden Mean. I point to Aristotle's scientific remark about man being a herd animal.

All these facts, Scripture, Philosophy, show that there is NO accidental divisions of mankind.

That to call what God has done as "accidental"? I don't put myself in the position of attacking God. Sorry. I respect what God has done.

Notice how Pope Pius writes on "the selfish interest of groups". What groups is he talking about? A Nation and a Race's self-interest! Here is a Pope advocating genocide; he is attacking the Natural Order. That is not the position of a bishop much less a pope.

Yea, ..... Pope Paul VI removed the strictures against Freemasonry---because he was probably a Mason himself. Masonry has made inroads at the Vatican bureaucracy and in the Cardinalships there. Pope Francis is into Liberation Theology which is nothing more than the teachings of International Socialism.

The leadership of the Catholic Church has gone completely over to the Dark Side.

I'm not following. You may follow but the end of that is destruction. My posts are a warning. As St. Paul teaches in Ephesians, we are to expose evil deeds. Continue down the path of Internationalism, of genociding the European nations---you are walking down the path of destruction and Hell.

bmiller said...

@W.LindsayWheeler,

I think it would be interesting to have a discussion with you, but it seems you're not interested in that. You don't want to discuss your premises or logical thought process, only your conclusions.

It seems to me that some of your assertions are incoherent, mistaken logically or just plain bad research glued onto your foregone conclusion.

For instance Masonry is condemned to this day in the Catholic Church.

In 1983, the Church issued a new Code of Canon Law. Unlike its predecessor, it did not explicitly name Masonic orders among the secret societies. This omission of Masonic orders caused both Catholics and Freemasons to believe that the ban on Catholics becoming Freemasons may have been lifted. However, the matter was clarified in November 1983 when the Vatican’s Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, issued a Declaration on Masonic Associations, which states:

“… the Church’s negative judgment in regard to Masonic association remains unchanged since their principles have always been considered irreconcilable with the doctrine of the Church and therefore membership in them remains forbidden. The faithful who enroll in Masonic associations are in a state of grave sin and may not receive Holy Communion.”

In 1996 the Bishop of the Diocese of Lincoln, Nebraska, published a list of organizations in which membership by Catholics was forbidden. The Freemasons were on that list, and the Vatican backed the issuance of the list.


What's very ironic that you condemn Protestants while holding your private interpretation of the Bible as superior to the Catholic Church.

Matthew 18:17
If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, regard him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Which Church are you bringing your complaint to? Or have you already left the Church to start your own?

W.LindsayWheeler said...

Padre Pio who is a true saint said this:'

At the close of the second meeting [second half of 1963], Padre Pio embraced Father Villa three times, saying to him: ‘Be brave, now…for the Church has already been invaded by Freemasonry!’ and then stated: ‘Freemasonry has already made it into the loafers (shoes) of the Pope!’ At the time, the reigning Pope was Paul VI. (ref: Padre Pio and Chiesa Viva

In 1986, it seemed that the Church did relax its prohibition. From Wikipedia's "Papal Ban on Freemasonry" In early 1968, The Tablet reported that Vatican sources had "been quoted as saying that Catholics are now free to join the Masons in the United States, Britain and most other countries of the world. However, the European Grand Orient Lodge of Masons, established primarily in Italy and France, is still considered anti-Catholic or, at least, atheistic," and that "the CDF 'let it be known that Catholics joining the Freemasons are no longer automatically excommunicated. The Church's new attitude has been in effect for more than a year.'

That is the last I heard of it. Everybody I talked to tells me that Pope Paul VI lifted the ban. I haven't heard differently until now. I guess I stand corrected on that point.

What is this "holding private interpretation"? "...and all the nations whom thou hast created"? That is plain. It needs NO interpretation. You are abusing the "private interpretation" clause.

The Church has done NO study on nations. It has adopted Masonic and hence Internationalist teaching! That is clear. The Church is IN error at this point. The Church was always allied to the Natural Order, or the Old Order. It has nothing to do with this "New Order of the World". That is Masonic lingo. NOT Catholic.

And here is a guy from India, part of the Roman Catholic Church, who has an extensively referenced article on Pope Paul VI as being an active homosexual and Freemason.

W.LindsayWheeler said...

I forgot the link Pope Paul VI, Homosexual and Freemason

W.LindsayWheeler said...

Ohh, and that is not the end of it either. Lumen Gentium is a Document of Vatican II. It is also a carrier of error.

“Because the human race today is joining more and more into a civic, economic and social unity, it is that much the more necessary that priests, by combined effort and aid, under the leadership of the bishops and the Supreme Pontiff, wipe out every kind of separateness, so that the whole human race may be brought into the unity of the family of God.” Ch. III, #28.

There it is Open Error. It is the Error of Masonry and the goal of International Socialism.

"wiping out every kind of separateness" is NOT the job of the Catholic Church. It is NOT a part of the Deposit of Faith. This is NOT a part of the Faith. This is just pure blown Jewish Messianism.

The Catholic Church is in grand Heresy, Apostasy, and is committing Treason. Vatican II must be condemned. The passing of error by the council that it is NOT of the Holy Spirit.

Starhopper said...

I'm sorry, people. I promised to ignore the troll, but his latest comment compels me to clear the air and set the record straight. I must defend the Catholic Faith. For anyone calling himself a Catholic, the decrees of the Ecumenical Councils (every one of them, from Jerusalem in the 1st Century (Acts, Chapter 15) down the years and right up to Vatican II) are guaranteed by the Holy Spirit Himself to be free of error. Let him who gainsays this be anathema.

Wheeler, by his own words, is no Catholic. I doubt he even has grounds to call himself a Christian. He needs to be thrown into the same rubbish bin as the self-styled Westboro Baptist Church, just another preacher of hate.

Never forget: "Catholic" in English translates as "Universal".

bmiller said...

@W.LindsayWheeler,

What is this "holding private interpretation"?

You claim to have found a Christian teaching regarding nations in the Bible.

The Church has done NO study on nations.

If the Church has no teaching on "nations" then it simply has no teaching. It doesn't follow that your private interpretation is correct and binding on all. This kind of makes my point that your conclusions do not logically follow. If you were willing to have a dispassionate discussion we might both learn something.

And here is a guy from India, part of the Roman Catholic Church, who has an extensively referenced article on Pope Paul VI as being an active homosexual and Freemason.

Apart from the obvious weakness of quoting *random Indian guy* as authoritative and salacious articles written by papal detractors with an agenda, it's obvious that you don't understand what Catholics believe about the Pope. Can the Pope be a sinner? Yes. Can the Pope say stupid things? Yes. Can the Pope teach error as binding on all the faithful in the exercise of his office in matters of faith or morals? No.

So regardless of any Pope's conduct Catholics should listen carefully to what he is saying regarding faith and morals especially when he speaks as the successor to Peter. Don't you think it's intersting that Paul VI was accused of homosexuality while condemning it in Humane Vitae (a document that was rather prophetic btw).

“Because the human race today is joining more and more into a civic, economic and social unity, it is that much the more necessary that priests, by combined effort and aid, under the leadership of the bishops and the Supreme Pontiff, wipe out every kind of separateness, so that the whole human race may be brought into the unity of the family of God.” Ch. III, #28.

"wiping out every kind of separateness" is NOT the job of the Catholic Church. It is NOT a part of the Deposit of Faith. This is NOT a part of the Faith. This is just pure blown Jewish Messianism.


I suppose that you don't know that "Lumen Gentium" is Latin for Light of the Nations did you.

I also don't suppose you actually read the document. If you did you would see that it is an inward looking document to define what the Catholic Church is. The Dogmatic Constituion of the Church.

Here is a list of the first several chapters. The one your quote came from is from the chapter on the role of clergy (linked). It would be a non-sequitor to derive from the section that treats how priests should shepard their particular flock that the Church is trying to destroy nations. Instead it is instructing priests to treat Italians, Irish, Africans and Vietnamese the same.


CHAPTER I

THE MYSTERY OF THE CHURCH

CHAPTER II

ON THE PEOPLE OF GOD


CHAPTER III

ON THE HIERARCHICAL STRUCTURE OF THE CHURCH AND IN PARTICULAR ON THE EPISCOPATE


CHAPTER IV

THE LAITY

CHAPTER V

THE UNIVERSAL CALL TO HOLINESS IN THE CHURCH

CHAPTER VI

RELIGIOUS

CHAPTER VII

THE ESCHATOLOGICAL NATURE OF THE PILGRIM CHURCH AND ITS UNION WITH THE CHURCH IN HEAVEN

...


If you read the document, you will see that it defines what the Church is, what it believes, how it is structured, the mission statement etc.
It's not a document on how the world's governments should work.

Starhopper said...

You are correct, bmiller. In the town of Swoyersville, PA, where (after emigrating from Poland) nearly all of my relatives once lived (we're now scattered all over the continent), there were no less than seven Catholic churches: The Irish church, an Italian church, a Polish church, a German church, a Slovak church, a Ukrainian church, and a Lithuanian church. When my 80+ year old grandmother started finding that Our Lady of Częstochowa, at 7 blocks away, was too far for her to walk to Sunday Mass, she asked permission to attend instead services at the Irish Catholic church, which was right across the street. Her pastor (before giving his blessing) first protested, "But Mary, that's the Irish church!"

That's what Lumen Gentium was referring to in that passage. Not to nation states.

W.LindsayWheeler said...

Lumen Gentium is about superseding nations and races and created this deracinated "One people of God". I reread it.

It is about overthrowing the Natural Order. Bmiller and Starhopper think that this Lumen Gentium is "about America". It ain't.

It is about creating a One People.

Lumen Gentium is about genocide. It is Masonic doctrine. Nations are to disappear.

The Catholic Church is a now a Genocidal organization. This encyclical is typical of the Left's and Liberal dissimulation. Ohh, the title is "Light of the Nations" but the document goes on to destroy nations!

There is no call or need for Lumen Gentium. Catholics pre-Vatican II understood perfectly what the Church was. But now, all things change. It is about creating a One People of God.

Jesus said, "Go to the Nations". But Lumen Gentium says "destroy all separatedness" and create the One People of God. No more nations. That is the gist of the document.

It's a piece of garbage.

The Orthodox don't have a problem like Catholics do. The Orthodox laity can still remove heretical bishops. RCs can not. The Orthodox Laity still have the power to accept or disprove a Council. RCs can't. RC Bishops can be heretical and no one can stop them. Hell, they can't stop the pedophilia going on either!

W.LindsayWheeler said...

It follows that though there are many nations there is but one people of God, which takes its citizens from every race, making them citizens of a kingdom which is of a heavenly rather than of an earthly nature.

NO. When one becomes a Christian, one remains in his racial category.

Then the BVM is NOT a Jew and neither is Jesus Christ!

Right there "citizens of a kingdom" is the Tower of Babel. St. John the Apostle says different.

W.LindsayWheeler said...

There are copious references to the Book of Revelation. They do reference 21:24, but they skip over the nation part and ONLY reference Christ as the Light.

Lumen Gentium is a genocidal document that ensconces nation-killing.

W.LindsayWheeler said...

...united to the Church in heaven

Not even a bishop can read Scripture right. St. John expressly says, "There is NO temple" in heaven.

So there is NO Church. Just the saved from every nation ---in their nation.

bmiller said...

@W.LindsayWheeler,

I thought that you enjoyed reading philosophy and theology and had an appreciation of history, especially the history of Christianity. I was wrong.

It is about overthrowing the Natural Order. Bmiller and Starhopper think that this Lumen Gentium is "about America". It ain't.

This doesn't make sense. I explicitly said it is (actually it's a quote) The Dogmatic Constituion of the Church. America is a not the Church.

But Lumen Gentium says "destroy all separatedness" and create the One People of God. No more nations. That is the gist of the document.

It's clear from the context of the chapter where you pulled your first quote it was in reference to how priests should behave toward their flock. You were gullible to believe whoever told you otherwise. Now in this latter comment you are inventing fake quotes ("destroy all separatedness" is not in the document). That is a sin.

It follows that though there are many nations there is but one people of God, which takes its citizens from every race, making them citizens of a kingdom which is of a heavenly rather than of an earthly nature.

NO. When one becomes a Christian, one remains in his racial category.


I think you have been so bamboozled by the people you've been talking to that you now can't think or read straight. This passage explicitly says that Christians (the "one people of God") takes it's citizens from every race. Or don't you think Christ is your King as well as Peter and Paul's?

If you claim to be following Tradition, then you would be familiar with the Church Militant (here), the Church Trimumphant(in heaven) and the Church Suffering (awaiting heaven). All are citizens of the Church, but only one exists (temporarily) here on earth with the danger of losing citizenship. I hope you regain your faith, peace of mind and clarity of thought.

It's clear the people you have been listening to don't know what they're talking about.

W.LindsayWheeler said...

Here is the complete sentence: Because the human race today is joining more and more into a civic, economic and social unity, it is that much the more necessary that priests, by combined effort and aid, under the leadership of the bishops and the Supreme Pontiff, wipe out every kind of separateness, so that the whole human race may be brought into the unity of the family of God.

1st error: Humans are NOT a race. (We discussed this earlier.)

It notices that there is a growing "social unity", and because the outside, secular, evil world is growing in social unity---it tells priests with the Magisterium, to "wipe out every kind of separateness" due to the World. 2nd Error: We are to follow the world! When we are supposed to be AGAINST the World.

3rd error: human race brought into the unity of the family of God.

That is the NOT the purpose of the Church. There was already a union in the Church before Vatican II WITHOUT, wiping away every kind of separateness; it's called Baptism. The ONLY unity that the Church has --- IS BAPTISM. That automatically creates the UNITY OF the Christian Church! It requires NO separation. So their theology is flawed.

The work Lumen Gentium is an evil work.

First, the title comes from Rev. 21:24---but they don't reference the 'nations' that appear twice in the verse!

This document actually makes fun of Scripture by using a phrase from it---but then ignoring the rest of the verse! the presence of nations.

Second, this document concerning this sentence is purposely two-faced. They don't define "separatedness". This means that there can be Multiple interpretations.

Vatican II is NOT doctrinal. But if it is not doctrinal---why this document. If you read ancient canons of councils 75% of the canons are one-liners. This document is not clear, it is two-faced, on purpose.

bmiller, I've been a long time with the Catholic Church. There was an American woman who belonged to the communist party and when she left the Party, she announced that their plans was to infiltrate the Church to push their agenda. Bella Dodd

Don't you think that by now, that many many Masons and Communists have entered the priesthood to turn the Church.

If you understand Masonry, they have a technique of secret meanings, of double meanings. That sentence above is a sign of that. You can interpret it both ways that are opposite. You and Starhopper interpret it but there is nothing previous to that statement that preps your answer. Take the statement at face-value---do away with nations so they can all be brought to the "unity" of the Church.

They preface "separatedness" with the adjective "every". That means to do away with all particularity. It is Gnostic. It is the French Revolution.

Pope Paul VI was not an orthodox Catholic. The man was converged.


W.LindsayWheeler said...

Let me make this more clear.

Who runs THE WORLD?

Masons and Communists. They are re-engineering The World (of Man) for their own utopian designs.

So, in that sentence, the RC Bishops are purposely looking at THE WORLD, this New International Order of Masons and Communists, and telling the Church to go along.

All the reasons are IN that Sentence.

The American and French Revolutions destroyed the OLD ORDER. Catholics belong to the OLD ORDER. They, the Masons and the Communists are creating a New Order.

We have NO business participating in the New Order. That phrase is on the Seal of the US.

Hell NO. My duty and loyalty is to what God created---the Natural Order, i.e. the Old Order.

bmiller said...

@W.LindsayWheeler,

1st error: Humans are NOT a race. (We discussed this earlier.)

Someone as well read as you should know there can be more than one definition of a term. Usually when people talk of the human race they mean all of humanity as was meant in the latest quote you selected.

However this quote we've discussed:
It follows that though there are many nations there is but one people of God, which takes its citizens from every race, making them citizens of a kingdom which is of a heavenly rather than of an earthly nature.
talks about the various groups of people in the sense you are referring to. I have to ask. Are you putting me on here?

There was already a union in the Church before Vatican II

Yes. It was and is the same union as it has always been. Union with the Church of God, the pillar and foundation of Truth. The union you have left.
When someone believes false things the Truth looks false to them. Whoever you've listened to is not "the pillar and foundation of Truth" but is indistinguishable from an ahistorical fundamentalist protestant. If you don't believe the Catholic Church has and does faithfully transmit the message of Jesus Christ then you simply have no basis to believe in Christ at all.

Second, this document concerning this sentence is purposely two-faced. They don't define "separatedness". This means that there can be Multiple interpretations.

As I mentioned words actually do have multiple definitions, but most readers can derive the meaning from the context of the text. Apparently someone showed you that passage out of context and told you what they wanted you to see in it in order to train you. He did a good job. By repeating that back to someone who knows the context you don't end up looking much like a careful scholar.

Don't you think that by now, that many many Masons and Communists have entered the priesthood to turn the Church.

I've heard the stories too and don't necessarily disbelieve them. After all, if you were Satan wouldn't you throw the gates of hell against the Church?

But we were promised that wouldn't happen
"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world."


So you seem to think that Satan has succeeded. The gates of hell have prevailed. Christ reneged on His promise to be with the Church to the end.
If that is the case, then if you're still a Christian, you have a screw loose. It's done, over, finito!

So, in that sentence, the RC Bishops are purposely looking at THE WORLD

The Church has always purposely looked at "the world" since it is the commision of the Church to evangelize the world. Different parts of the world have/had different government organizations. Jerusalem was an occupied country when Christianity started and Europe had the Roman Empire. Europe devolved into various areas of chaos, principalities, kingdoms and periodic invasions that upset the existing orders. Charlemagne brought some of Europe back under a common government. The map of kingdoms and nations have been very fluid over history. The Church has had to evangelize the people of the world as she finds them.

The Church's power as a political entity used to be as an attack on the Church and it was thought once they destroyed that the Church would crumble. Now that there is only Vatican City, what worldly power do you think the Church wields? There is a power, but it's not worldly.

But you didn't answer the question I asked. Is Christ your King?

W.LindsayWheeler said...

That is the difference between you and me. Words.

For me words are Concrete, with one meaning. That was the mission of Socrates.

For you, words, (Logos), is ephemeral, of many meanings. You are a Liberal. Liberals are not tied down by anything, Facts, Words, everything for you guys is Fluid. You are not beholden to anything.

Christ is my King, always has been. The basic essence of a Liberal is that he is not beholden to anything except his right to choose what he wants to believe or not believe. He chooses. He makes His own rules.

What did Satan do in the Garden of Eden? He attacked the Logos of God. He said, God did not mean that. He is calling God’s word into question. Genesis 3:1: “Did God actually say, ‘You shall not eat of any tree in the garden’?” He is devious and deceitful and destructive. God had said in Genesis 2:17, “The day that you eat of [this tree] you shall surely die.” But the serpent says in Genesis 3:4: “You will not surely die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” Therefore, Jesus says of him in John 8:44 that he is both a liar and murderer:(Quote from a Protestant website)

See, evil begins with words. The denying what was said. Evil countermands what God has said or done. Evil is the mangling of language. What is Satan doing? He is attacking Words. He is attacking Logos.

@bmiller, you wrote Instead it is instructing priests to treat Italians, Irish, Africans and Vietnamese the same.

But this is what the document, which I did read says right before "wiping away"

...Because the human race today is joining more and more into a civic, economic and social unity,...

It had absolutely nothing to do with "treating Italians, Irish, Africans the same", it was about following the Masonic/Marxist in "joining more and more into a civic, economic, and social unity".

bmiller: Usually when people talk of the human race

But is that Science? Is that scientific? """"When people talk""""", when Scripture says, "wisdom is not manifest to the many". That we are to follow the ignorant, the deceived? We are to follow the Vulgar crowd? Is that the position of a Christian? That is the position of a Philosopher? Is that the Position of the Righteous?

We are To correct error---not follow it! Because the ignorant masses do that---doesn't mean we should do it!

The Document shows its evil by the misuse of the word "race". Just like how Satan mangled the message and the words that God said. It is a war on the Logos. See Liberals hate what is written in Stone.

The Church is in the Truth not with the Heretics. St. Maximos the Confessor said, "One man with the Truth is the majority". The Church is defined by the Truth, not by the heretics within it. The Magesterium has failed---but parts of the Laity have not. The Laity that have not fallen to the siren call of the Masons and Marxists. The True Church still exists with those that have NOT compromised with the World.


bmiller said...

@W.LindsayWheeler,

For me words are Concrete, with one meaning. That was the mission of Socrates.

You claim to be versed in philosophy and then utter something like that.
The Law of Noncontradiction states that contradictory statements cannot both be true in the same sense at the same time.

It would not necessarily be a contradiction if someone said
"I am currently part of a race and I am also currently not part of a race".
The speaker could be caucasian and also not be in a running competition.

If you think a word has only one meaning, it explains why you can't understand what you read. I hope you didn't actually mean what you wrote.

Christ is my King, always has been.

Let's list other's who claim Christ as their King:
Athanasius the Eygptian
Augustine the Libyan
Peter the Jew
Jerome the Slovenian
Aquinas the Italian
etc.

Are you sure you are in the same kingdom? It seems you think your "Christ" lied about his promises.

The basic essence of a Liberal is that he is not beholden to anything except his right to choose what he wants to believe or not believe. He chooses. He makes His own rules.

Actually, you're describing what a heresy and that is what the cult you are in is.

Me, I hold to the Deposit of Faith, not some incoherent, recent, man-made doctrine that no one ever heard of in the history of Christianity.

The Magesterium has failed

That's exactly what the Gnostic heretics said about the Apostles. Funny.

W.LindsayWheeler said...

The Magesterium has failed

That's exactly what the Gnostic heretics said about the Apostles. Funny.


References? Please post reference to that! Especially since the term "magisterium" was not coined for another 1000 years!

The Doctrine of the infallibility of the Magesterium was made at Vatican I.

So please again----REFERENCE.

Bmiller, you really do take the cake. The context of the word "race" is of course two meanings because the word to describe two different things---COME FROM TWO DIFFERENT SOURCES. "Race" is an anglicized word that comes from the Italian that came from the French meaning Breed. SOURCE Dictionary of Word Origins. The word meaning running a race comes from an Old Norse term meaning 'rush'. You are very disingenuous. You understood perfectly well the context of the meaning--and you decided to jump the shark and impugn to me illogic. That is the heart of being duplicitous. You are not truthful but duplicitous.

Two different words combined in the English language does not make it mean the same. Race means ONE thing in regards to Breeds, Nations, groups of related people. So the contention that the Bishops in constructing Lumen Gentium misused the term shows their evil, still stands.

Race is concrete when applied to differing groups of people. If one takes 'race' as in the human race, then one must go back and erase its old meaning and that all dogs are of one breed, All dogs are of one race. All cats are of one breed, All cats are of one race.

That is Logic my friend. You cannot do logic with flawed terms. Let's go to the Italian form of RAZZA. Then. There is no such thing as a Human Razza. The term 'razza' is applied to breeds. You are still wrong. See, when you attack the concept it must be true in all languages. Your supposed 'contradiction' only exists in the English Language.

And yes, so In the Deposit of Faith Bmiller where is it that the Apostles, the early Church or Scripture says to do away with all separatedness? There is none. What is said in Lumen Gentium is nowhere in the Deposit of Faith.

bmiller said...

@W.LindsayWheeler,

Have you ever heard of St. Irenaeus Bishop of Lyons? Most of what we know about the Gnostics today we know from his "Against Heresies". He spends the first part talking about Valentinus who was excommunicated but continued to teach that he had the truth rather than the bishop.

Irenaeus was one of the earliest Church Fathers and as you can there was never a time when the Church did not teach apostolic succession and always preserved the Deposit of Faith

Show me from the Early Church Fathers where they taught any of the unique doctrines of your heretical sect. I suspect that no one taught "separation of the races" before Darwin in the 1850's.

You're entitled to your private understanding of the phrase "human race" but don't expect other people to know what you're talking about, because most other people disagree with you. As I pointed out, the document uses "the races" and the "human race" to mean different things in in different contexts. A word may have only one sense, but many words have more than one sense. Right?

BTW, I didn't see you answer if you thought the Eygptians, Libyans, Jews, Slovenians and Italians I mentioned above have the same King (are in the same Kingdom) as you. Do you want to give that a shot?

bmiller said...

If you want to view "Against Heresies" in the oldest Latin translation, you can find Chapter 10 here.

In particular, you can see the first part of Chapter 10 here.

It uses the Latin phrase humani generis. You can use Google Translate to see what that means.

bmiller said...

For your reference.

The Church has held Apostolic Succession since the beginning. Not laity succession.

W.LindsayWheeler said...

Nowhere bmiller did I attack "Apostolic Succession". Nowhere. This is your Bait-n-switch tactics. What I did say is that this supposed 'magisterium' of the Catholic Church is in error. Now, the Orthodox Churches are just as Apostolic and just as connected to Holy Tradition----but nowhere do they have this "infallibility of the Magisterium"!

In Orthodoxy, the laity have been known to take even Patriarchs that have left Holy Tradition, row them out into the Black Sea, tie a millstone around their necks, and dump them overboard.

There is such a thing as as bad councils, heretical councils: i.e. Robber Council.

Patriarchs, Councils, bishops have known to be heretics. A heretic is to be deposed. See, in the 10th or 11th century A.D., Roman Catholic councils barred the laity from unseating a bishop----CONTRARY to the practice of the Early Church! The Orthodox continue an unbroken tradition that the Laity as much as the clergy have a responsibility to Keep The Faith pure and unbroken.

The Laity have that responsibility as much as the so-called vaulted 'Magisterium'!

So the practice of the Orthodox communities who are just as Apostolic and even more faithful to Holy Tradition than the Roman Catholic Church attest, is that the Laity are just as important. Whereas, in the West, the RC has denuded the Laity of their responsibility. If you read that article on the Robber Council---ALL SORTS OF BISHOPS WERE HERETICS! Many Bishops were Arians. Are they kosher? Are they infallible? Should we obey Arian bishops? See, bmiller, you are attacking me but the Early Church was filled with Heretical Bishops. Is our allegiance to orthodox Bishops or to Heretical Bishops? There is a difference, No?

Nowhere, but nowhere do I attack Apostolic Succession nor the Deposit of Faith. What I do attack is the innovations that undermine or supercede the practices of the Early Church.

When St. Jerome declared "The Whole World is Arian" (paraphrase), many, many bishops were Arianists and so heretical. They still had Apostolic succession. They had many parts of the Deposit of Faith. But were holding to a specific idea of the nature of Christ.

Being a Bishop doesn't confer--automatically---right doctrine.

What I am complaining about is that probably the whole Magisterium of the Catholic Church today, holding Apostolic Succession, are in Heresy because they hold to the Jewish doctrine of World Unity, i.e. rebuilding the Tower of Babel. Furthermore, holding to the error of Sola Gospel. The error of Utopianism.

Just as almost all the bishops of St. Jerome's time were Arianists, Today, it is much worse. Almost all the Bishops, Orthodox, Catholic and 90% of all Protestant Ministers hold to Political Correctness, Social Justice which is all Cultural Marxism and hold to the error of the Tower of Babel. Just as the whole world of Jerome was Arianist, Today's Church is Marxist. Modern Roman Catholicism is nothing more than Marxism with a Cross!

Jesus is the author of the Natural Law as well. The Natural Law legitimasizes and authorizes race/nation/tribe. To break that down, as the encyclical Lumen Generis teaches and advocates, shows that Vatican II is just like the Robber Council of Ephesus. This shows that there Doctrine of Infallibility of the Magisterium of Vatican I is false, never was. Did not St. Paul confront St. Peter over his duplicitous treatment of gentile converts?

In Lumen Generis, the Bishops of Vatican II have endorsed and followed Masonic/International Socialist (Marxist) ideology of "doing away with all separatedness". That is error.

What I am pointing out is that Christianity has morphed into Marxism. You are all Marxists.

W.LindsayWheeler said...

On "generis". I have two Latin dictionaries with me. Sadly, I have only had one semester of Latin. 'Gens' means tribe, nation, etc. But 'generalis' is slightly different, a more nuanced connotation; it means "belonging to a kind' or 'genus'. 'Genero' is to "produce, generate". Generis doesn't mean "race" right off the bat!

Is not Truth allied to Science. The word 'genus' comes Latin 'genus'. It means 'kind, race'. Genus is above Species. We are the species Homo Sapien. Of the Genus 'Homo'.

Africans, French, Italians, Spanish, are all breeds of Homo Sapien. But using the word "breed" for Humans does NOT sound right in the English Language. So the word nation, race, and ethnicity is used. We don't say the Dog Nation, nor Bovine Race, nor Chicken ethnicity.

We say Breeds of dogs, breeds of chickens, breeds of bovine and then Races of Homo Sapien.

Homo Sapien is a Species. It is better to say the Human Species, or Mankind. And that is where "generis" would mean, Kind. We are all of a Kind, made up of Breeds, called races.

And just as that verse in Leviticus says, LXX Lev. 19:19 "...thou shalt not let thy cattle gender one of a different kind, and thou shalt not sow thy vineyard with diverse seed".

Just as the different breeds of bovine are to be preserved, the different races of mankind are to be preserved. ((I just noticed something, can one repeat the previous phrase of "different races of mankind" with "different races of the Human race"? Does that look normal to you? That is why bmiller's argument is fallacious. But his reasoning into a sentence, "the races of the Human race"!!! ))

If you are not about preserving one's race---you are in the act of Genocide. "wiping away all separatedness" is genocide. The Document Lumen Generis is instructing The Church to genocide. Soft genocide, race-mixing in order to build the Tower of Babel. That condemns the 1965 Immigration Act; it condemns America as it stands today. Contrary to the original argument that Trump is a racist---Trump is the only Righteous politician out there.

W.LindsayWheeler said...

24 et ambulabunt gentes per lumen eius et reges terrae adferent gloriam suam et honorem in illam

Notice the word 'lumen'. And it refers to 'gentes' which means clan, tribe, nation, etc.

The document Lumen Generis is a play on this. But instead of using Lumen Gentes they purposely used the word 'Generis' and then say "do away with all sepratedness". 'Generis' means Kind. What they are saying there is ONLY Generis, and not gentes. Scripture is clear.

Cicero did use the phrase "gens humana" as "human race". Or one can say "Human Nation".

-----

In his book Heresies, Harold Brown point out that the rising of Heresy, forced orthodoxy to use a more clear use of words and definitions to counter heresy.

I am doing the same thing. In the face of the nation-killing ideology of Masonry and International Socialism, I am forced to bring clarity and scientific language in the fighting against these errors. This is the job of Philosophy which is a science. Science is about Clarity and precision. What I am doing is enforcing a Clarity and precision onto the English language to prevent and combat Heresy and Error.

God Created all the nations of the earth.

Lev 19:19 instructs the preservation of particularity.

St. John the Apostle in his revelation of the World to come---there are Nations in Heaven. Our ethnicity remains as part of our identity, our soul.

Scripture condemns the Tower of Babel.

The Story of Sampson showcases that things are not to be mixed.

Races/nations are the Will of God---and they are to be maintained. In ethnically diverse states, either a Caste system or a Federal system must be developed. Segregation by Kind is what the Natural Law teaches.

Lumen Generis in advocating "doing away with all separatedness" and its title of "
Generis" means that it is doing away with Particularity and that is Gnosticism. Vatican II was Gnostic.

Was not Vatican II about moving The Church closer to The World (of Man)? Yes.

But Scripture says, "We are NOT of this World". The World (of Man) is Egypt. We are called OUT of Egypt. The World of Nature is different. God put is in a Garden, in Nature. God put us in Nature which is His creation.

W.LindsayWheeler said...

I have confused "Lumen Gentium" with "Humana Generis". My apologies.

bmiller said...

@W.LindsayWheeler,


Early Church was filled with Heretical Bishops. Is our allegiance to orthodox Bishops or to Heretical Bishops? There is a difference, No?

Yes, and it was always ultimately the Pope of Rome that settled the issues in the Early Church definitively. Just like today.


When St. Jerome declared "The Whole World is Arian" (paraphrase), many, many bishops were Arianists and so heretical. They still had Apostolic succession. They had many parts of the Deposit of Faith. But were holding to a specific idea of the nature of Christ.

Pope Liberius settled that one

Nowhere, but nowhere do I attack Apostolic Succession nor the Deposit of Faith. What I do attack is the innovations that undermine or supercede the practices of the Early Church.

Of course you are attacking Apostolic Succession and the Deposit of Faith. You don't follow any successor to the Apostles and you are unaware of what is in the Deposit of Faith and are trotting out innovations pretending they are part of it.

You haven't answered if you share the Kingdom with Eygptians, Libyans, Jews, Slovenians and Italians. You haven't provided any primary references from the Early Churh Fathers that support your cult's innovations because there aren't any.

You're free to follow whoever you want, but don't claim you're following the Church that Christ started and promised to protect from error.

If you're interested in finding a starting point for primary source material regarding our disagreement, this is a good place to start:

Apostolic Succession since the beginning.

You can click on the links on a number of topics we've discussed for ECF quotes. From there you can follow the quote references to the source documents and read them in context. I have found all the ECF's documents online.

This is the first one I brought up:
Irenaeus: Against Heresies, TOC

This is a particularly relevant section:

Most of the times you've pointed me to references they were not primary sources, were simply wrong, or were ham-handed propaganda of the Jack Chick variety. It seemed to me that you had read some primary sources, but it doesn't help your cause when you choose to quote a *Protestant Theology* professor who has no particular expertise in the ECFs as your first choice on Churh History. Even if he did have some expertise, he would have a bias.

See if you can defend your cult's unique doctrines from the Early Church Fathers. While you're at it see how they compare to the doctrines of the Catholic Church today. Then we can have a useful discussion.

W.LindsayWheeler said...

Thanks bmiller.

I want to thank Prof. Reppert for this opportunity to explore stuff on this thread. One can't have a discussion like this on any Catholic website. They shut it down. I thank you for your magnanimity and courtesy regarding this topic.

bmiller said...

@W.LindsayWheeler,

I'm sorry that you had that experience at the Catholic websites you visited. I wonder which ones they were. I might be able to suggest some others.

Maybe the way you go about stating your case sets off defenses. Marine training?