Sunday, April 15, 2018

Do you believe in American civil religion? Not me.

Discussed here.  

Civil religion, on the one hand, often refers to America's covenantal relationship with a divine Creator who promises blessings for the nation for fulfilling its responsibility to defend liberty and justice. While vaguely connected to Christianity, appeals to civil religion rarely refer to Jesus Christ or other explicitly Christian symbols. Christian nationalism, however, draws its roots from "Old Testament" parallels between America and Israel, who was commanded to maintain cultural and blood purity, often through war, conquest, and separatism. Unlike civil religion, historical and contemporary appeals to Christian nationalism are often quite explicitly evangelical, and consequently, imply the exclusion of other religious faiths or cultures.

55 comments:

Legion of Logic said...

I think the concept has been very damaging to Christianity.

W.LindsayWheeler said...

"....explicitly evangelical, and consequently, imply the exclusion of other religious faiths or cultures.""""

Yehhhh, that evil word "exclusion".

Isn't Heaven exclusionary? By its very nature? Only orthodox Christians in Heaven, right? Exclusion anybody? There are no other religions in heaven but Christianity.!

And that most evillll ""'Old Testament""". I like how modern Christians dismiss the """Old Testament""". I thought your precious Jesus said, "Man lives by EVERY word that proceeds out of the mouth of God". Did not St. Paul say "All Scripture is there for teaching and reproof?

Ohh, not if one is a modern Christian. The OT is passe and racist.

I find it difficult in finding this site Christian. And you are complaining about Christian nationalism? The Pot calling the Kettle black!?!?

bmiller said...

I wonder if anyone at Truthout is a Christian.

Joe Hinman said...

Legion of Logic said...
I think the concept has been very damaging to Christianity.

I agree LL

W.LindsayWheeler said...

From the link, "...sociologists Andrew L. Whitehead, Samuel L. Perry and Joseph O. Baker argue that voting for Trump "was, at least for many Americans, a symbolic defense of the United States' perceived Christian heritage."

Okay, the Truthout article talks about "nationalism" but the paper quoted talks about preserving America's Christian heritage.

....And that is evil, how?

St. Peter said "Supplement the Faith with Virtue". And yet in all my Christian experience, I have NEVER heard a sermon on Virtue from the Pulpit. I went to 12 years of Catholic schools and I never heard the word Virtue. The four main virtues are Manliness, Righteousness, Temperance, and Prudence.

How can one be a Christian without knowledge of the Virtues?

The one here important is the Virtue of Righteousness which is To righteousness it belongs to be ready to distribute according to desert, and to preserve ancestral customs and institutions and the established laws, and to tell the truth when interest is at stake, and to keep agreements. First among the claims of righteousness are our duties to the gods, then our duties to the spirits, then those to patrida [fatherland] and parents, then those to the departed; and among these claims is piety, which is either a part of righteousness or a concomitant of it. Righteousness is also accompanied by holiness and truth and loyalty and hatred of wickedness. V. 2-3 Loeb Classical Library. Aristotle, Athenian Constitution, Eudemian Ethics, Virtues and Vices. Vol. 285. pg 495.

uhhhhh, lookie there: "Preserve ancestral customs and institutions and the established laws". Okay, Homosexuality being wrong was the law of the land of America. Laws against abortion. Laws against spreading the Communist Manifesto in America. Laws against Miscegenation. The 1925 Nationalities Law was the law of America.

Now, what is my duty? to Multicultural Ideology? Or to my patrida and religion? And we are to hate wickedness.

I'm wondering when Multiculturalism became a religion. What I am supposed to follow? The dictates of the Virtue of Righteousness---therefore becoming Righteous, or the dictates of Marxist Multiculturalism---which makes someone unrighteous?

St. Peter is clear: The Faith must be supplemented by Virtue. Only the Righteous go to Heaven. The Unrighteous go to Hell.

Starhopper said...

Legion,

Allow me to add my thumbs up to your comment!

W.LindsayWheeler said...

LXX Lev. 19:19 "...thou shalt not let thy cattle gender one of a different kind, and thou shalt not sow thy vineyard with diverse seed".

What is the God speaking to? The Natural Order. This has nothing to do with Judaism. Bovine belong to the Natural Order. This speaks to *preserving*. To Preserve is a Good. When St. Paul uses the verse about muzzling the oxen and extrapolates that to paying the clergy, this verse speaks to multiculturalism. That verse condemns multiculturalism.

Let's go to an Agrarian saying: "Birds of a feather flock together". That bespeaks a Truth of how Nature works. The multicultural agenda is Against Nature. The Multicultural Agenda is Gnostic. Things segregate *naturally* by kind. That is how Nature Works.

Well, If I am at a Protestant website, we should go to Scripture shouldn't we? Sola Scriptura there.

Book of Sirach XIII 15, "Every beast loveth his like and every man loveth his neighbor. All flesh consorteth to kind and a man will cleave to his like".

Wow. What a racist statement. That is what Scripture teaches. Segregation by kind.

Now, I am in compliance with Scripture. With what God teaches. The Whole of Scripture.

I am a Trump supporter. I was for him as soon as he said about Building the Wall and immigration enforcement.

Us WASPs are being genocided, our race is being Dissolved, which is soft genocide, by the Roman Catholic Church no less. In his study of the Soviet Union, George Irbe reports ("Genocide, when necessary") that this Bolshevist state engaged in Ethnic dilution which is a form of "nation-killing". We are being genocided by ethnic dilution. I want the Genocide to stop. Why should we be a minority in our own country? Did I, Prof. Reppert, get a Vote on my destiny and the destiny of my people?

Do I not have an ethical duty to preserve my people from dissolution, Prof. Reppert? And so I am evil, Prof. Reppert? On what grounds am I evil? Do you know that Multiculturalism was first called Cosmopolitanism by the Masons? Is not Multiculturalism and Diversity by their very nature, genocidal?

Is that what is being promoted on this website? Genocide, albeit Soft Genocide?

Starhopper said...

Hey Wheeler, you forgot the verse about there being neither Jew or Greek in Christ (plus many others). The entire ministry of Jesus was about inclusion, such as His reaching out to the woman at the well, or in the parable about the good Samaritan, or in His praise of the centurion with a paralyzed servant (etc., etc.).

You really need to peddle your white supremacist garbage over at stormfront or some other overtly racist website. You'll get no takers here.

W.LindsayWheeler said...

One should understand the context, Starhopper, or should I say, Grasshopper. Many of the religions of the Roman Empire catered to only specific classes of people. Some religions were only for women. Others for only slaves. One was only for Roman soldiers. Judaism catered to only the Jews. Galatians 3:8 is highly abused by the gnostic. Galatians 3:8 is about the Christian religion---NOT about the Natural Order. The two are separate. Two different rules. St. Paul, who authored Galatians also said, women are to be silent in the church, are to cover their heads and are the weaker sex. True, the Christian Church is for all, slave and free, Greek and Jew, and Male and Female but that doesn't speak to the Natural Order. St. Paul returned a slave to his master.

There is still slaves. There is still men and women with different duties.

What you are expressing is the heresy of Sola Gospel. Jesus said, "Man lives by EVERY word that proceeds out of the Mouth of God". That means the Old Testament and the real, original Natural Law. One should not use one verse to the detriment or the exclusion of the other. Truth does not contradict Truth. You should know that as a Catholic. Furthermore, you can never nullify the Truth because when you do, one falls into further error. When you deny the existence of nation---you have automatically committed the act of genocide. Nowhere does orthodox catholic Christianity attack the Natural Order. It is not utopian, nor millinarian.

Legion of Logic said...

W.LindsayWheeler, is there an abbreviation for your name you find appropriate? That's quite the fingerful.

Isn't Heaven exclusionary?

The United States isn't Heaven, and the rules for membership are quite different. Legally, the United States has no constitutional business attempting to force religious purity.

While Christians, particularly conservative Christians, are understandably uncomfortable with recent cultural shifts, the dirty little secret they don't seem to truly understand is that these cultural shifts in no way affect their ability to believe and behave as they wish. There is no need to try and force societal compliance through the power of the government - although to be fair, they have just as much legal right to impose their beliefs via voting as anyone else.


The one here important is the Virtue of Righteousness

Are Christians bound to the moral teachings of Aristotle? Or is this included in Catholic doctrine somewhere?


When St. Paul uses the verse about muzzling the oxen and extrapolates that to paying the clergy, this verse speaks to multiculturalism.

You lost me there.


Well, If I am at a Protestant website, we should go to Scripture shouldn't we? Sola Scriptura there.

I'm curious why you think the average Protestant would be impressed by Sirach, which is an apocryphal book.


Things segregate *naturally* by kind.
That is what Scripture teaches. Segregation by kind.

We do naturally gravitate toward those most like us. As such, I would not tolerate the government forcing me to interact with people I do not wish to, but I also would not tolerate the government forcing segregation and conformity. Let people associate with whomever they choose.


our race is being Dissolved

The concept of race should be dissolved.


Why should we be a minority in our own country?

Whose country isn't it?


When you deny the existence of nation

One doesn't need to deny the concept of a nation to find it irrelevant to the truth or operation of the Gospel.

W.LindsayWheeler said...

Legion of Logic writes: "...The concept of race should be dissolved."

"Race" is a French word meaning Breed. It is an agricultural term. I just quoted Lev where God says that cattle of one kind should not be mixed with another kind. If you want to do away with breeds, Logically, one would think you are calling for getting rid of Holsteins and Herefords, Boxers and Chihuahuas, and Cornish hens and Rhode Islands. If you do that, you destroy the Ag business. Farmers pay attention to Particularity---not to the universal. Particularity is very important. Race is particularity.

If you understand philosophy, one of the most important concepts is that all things are composed of a universal and their particularity. The Universal is the "Form" for Plato. If you get rid of race, you get rid of particularity---which is a gnostic characteristic.

The French word "race" is synonymous with the Latin word "nation".

At LXX Psalm 85:5 (numbering different in Masoretic), Scripture has it: "...all the nations whom thou hast created."

God created all the nations of the earth. The Our Father has this line in it: "Thy Will be Done". We are on this earth to do the Will of the Father---not ours. It says in Isaiah, "My Ways are not your ways, and My Thoughts are NOT your thoughts". That is why we read the Bible to see and learn WHAT GOD WANTS. Plutarch a priest of Apollo at the Doric Temple at Delphi, taught, "We are NOT in the world to give the laws,...but in order to obey the commands of the gods". That is central to Western Civilization and Culture. We are here to do the Will of God. God created Nations because He wanted people IN racial groups! It is a teaching of Jewish Messianism, look it up, that requires the building of "World Unity". This ideology is found in Freemasonry, in the teachings of liberalism (q.v. Kant and his politics) and in International Socialism!

See, if you are for World Unity, you are practicing another religion---and you are NOT practicing orthodox Christianity. If you follow the tenets of another religion---you are an apostate.

God destroyed the Tower of Babel. God created all the Nations of the earth. Jesus said, "Go unto all the Nations". Now, is Jesus dumb? Did Jesus say "Go to Mankind"? NO. Jesus, Lord of All, said, "Go to the Nations". Jesus did NOT send us to the Nations to destroy them! All things were created THRU JESUS CHRIST. Nations were created thru Jesus Christ by the COMMAND of Almighty God---so why are you disobeying Scripture and the Will of God?

In the face of the propaganda of International Socialism, we are driven to preserve our nations from dissolution. It is our duty to do so. Scripture IS clear on what God wants.

Our only answer is to comply. Causa finita, Scripture has spoken.

Starhopper said...

"That is why we read the Bible to see and learn WHAT GOD WANTS."

Translation: "I read the Bible to find stuff that reinforces my own opinion, then I call it the Word of God."

How convenient.

SteveK said...

Starhopper
>> "Hey Wheeler, you forgot the verse about there being neither Jew or Greek in Christ (plus many others)."

Yes, IN CHRIST. A huge portion of the world is not in Christ, therefore we are not one and there is no unity and no call to be unified until such time as we are all in Christ.

Treating different people (those not in Christ) differently is not a sin. Preferring one culture (a culture not hostile to Christ) over another is not a sin.

SteveK said...

Legion
>> "While Christians, particularly conservative Christians, are understandably uncomfortable with recent cultural shifts, the dirty little secret they don't seem to truly understand is that these cultural shifts in no way affect their ability to believe and behave as they wish."

This is not *necessarily* true. A cultural shift to majority Muslim (for example) could make it impossible to behave as I wish. Nobody can take away my ability to believe, but they can take away my ability to freely worship and freely associate.

>> "There is no need to try and force societal compliance through the power of the government - although to be fair, they have just as much legal right to impose their beliefs via voting as anyone else."

It's not a matter of need, it's a matter of preference. Mimicking Obama's famous line about doctors, I imagine Obama would say it like this: "If you like your culture, you can keep your culture."

American culture is what I like and prefer and there are millions just like me who are doing what they can to keep the culture from shifting too far. Tight border control helps to stabilize the culture and keep it from shifting too far.

SteveK said...

Wheeler:
>> "See, if you are for World Unity, you are practicing another religion---and you are NOT practicing orthodox Christianity. If you follow the tenets of another religion---you are an apostate."

Being for world unity is not anti-Christian. It is the goal - to be united together IN CHRIST. We're not there and we won't ever get there completely (hell is very real), but progress can be made and I am for that.

I see no reason to live and pretend like the world is unified as one because that would be a delusion. Maybe that is what you are trying to say. I don't know really.

Joe Hinman said...

St. Peter is clear: The Faith must be supplemented by Virtue. Only the Righteous go to Heaven. The Unrighteous go to Hell.

I used to think that, But now we have the "boys-will-be-boys" loop-hole. just go up to St. Pete and say "I grabbed her by the pussy but boys will be boys." It's cool, you can be the big man of God and do anything yo want if you are rich,

Joe Hinman said...

The French word "race" is synonymous with the Latin word "nation".

you just said it was synonymous with breed.So where does the US constitutions say that our nation is a certain race?
that's really what you are saying itsn'it? race =bed=nation = America for White people only,isn't it?

Joe Hinman said...

Wheeler:
>> "See, if you are for World Unity, you are practicing another religion---and you are NOT practicing orthodox Christianity. If you follow the tenets of another religion---you are an apostate


show me the creed where it says that

W.LindsayWheeler said...

@Starhopper: Translation: "I read the Bible to find stuff that reinforces my own opinion, then I call it the Word of God." "How convenient."

Ohh, Grasshopper, you have much to learn.

The Bible requires two witnesses to confirm an account as true. There is another witness that backs up what the Bible teaches. There are two pillars to the truth of the existence of Nations.

Starhopper, you stated that you were a Catholic. Does not the Catholic Church use the Natural Law? In the Timaeus, Plato says, philosophy is derived from the Nature of the Universe. Well, who created the Universe? God did thru His Son, Jesus Christ. St. John the Apostle starts his gospel with a teaching of The Logos. The Logos is Jesus Christ.

Heraclitus perceives something very important, There is a Logos that steers all things from within. This "steering" is the Laws of Nature, or in other words, the Natural Law.

See, the first revelation of God is not the Old Testament---but Nature herself. We know a craftsman by what he makes. Ever watch Antiques Roadshow, and the expert says, "Oh yeah, that was made by so-n-so". We know something about the maker thru the things he makes. Nature is no different. Ensconced, hidden within Nature is the Natural Law, i.e. The Logos.
In the Laws, Plato asks Clinias the Cretan for a defense against atheism. Clinias says, "Why, Look upon Nature. See Order. Know God". There is Order in Nature. The Order is the Natural Law that "steers all things from within". It is from Jesus Christ.

This is why Greek philosophy is important because Greek philosophy is the Love of the Sophia, i.e. The Logos, in Nature. Here is a short article on that connection: "Christ, Reason (Logos) and Greek Philosophy"
https://www.academia.edu/1619469/

Here is the List of the real, original Natural Law: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:WHEELER/Real_Original_Natural_Law

Now, virtue was brought up in this thread. Virtue is in the Golden Mean. Virtue is the Mean between excess and deficiency. Truth is the Golden Mean between Excess of exaggeration and the deficiency of lie. The Good falls into the Golden Mean. The Orthodox theologian Apostolos Makrakis remarks that the Trinity is the Golden Mean between strict Monotheism which is an Deficiency and the excess of Polytheism. The Trinity strikes the Mean.

Now, the Maverick Philosopher, using the Golden Mean paradigm, posits this: "It navigates between the Scylla of destructive leftist globalist internationalism and the Charybdis of racist identity-political particularism." (ref: http://maverickphilosopher.typepad.com/maverick_philosopher/2018/04/the-greatest-risk-we-are-taking.html )

He is off-kelter. The Excess is Internationalism, or the One Large mass of humanity but the deficiency is Individualism, not race. Race/Nation is the Golden Mean between the excess of one large mass of humanity and the deficiency of Individualism which is Libertarianism, Americanism, Anarchism. Many things exist in the Golden Mean and it is Race/Nation that is in the Mean. (By the way, any ideology of Individualism is soft genocide.)

So here we see that the Natural Law backs up what Scripture teaches. Starhopper thinks I am using the Bible for private interpretation but the Natural Law, The Logos, found in Nature backs up what the Bible teaches. It is not a "Private" interpretation I am presenting---but a Consistent Teaching that has two separate but related witnesses--both found in Christ Jesus. Nature is a type of Scripture. Nature Proceeded out of the Mouth of God, i.e. The Logos, The Word, and we must be obedient to The Logos, i.e. the Natural Law. The Natural Law of the Golden Mean establishes the Truth of Race/Nation.

Joe Hinman said...


Blogger W.LindsayWheeler said...
@Starhopper: Translation: "I read the Bible to find stuff that reinforces my own opinion, then I call it the Word of God." "How convenient."

Ohh, Grasshopper, you have much to learn.

yes Grasshoppper all us super spiritualist know that racism is special to God

The Bible requires two witnesses to confirm an account as true. There is another witness that backs up what the Bible teaches. There are two pillars to the truth of the existence of Nations.

Note the circular reasoning also very special to God,all of God's favorite races are into racial reasoning

Starhopper, you stated that you were a Catholic. Does not the Catholic Church use the Natural Law? In the Timaeus, Plato says, philosophy is derived from the Nature of the Universe. Well, who created the Universe? God did thru His Son, Jesus Christ. St. John the Apostle starts his gospel with a teaching of The Logos. The Logos is Jesus Christ.

pay attention Hoppie this is where we move from mere circular reasoning to actual psychosis

Heraclitus perceives something very important, There is a Logos that steers all things from within. This "steering" is the Laws of Nature, or in other words, the Natural Law.

See, the first revelation of God is not the Old Testament---but Nature herself. We know a craftsman by what he makes. Ever watch Antiques Roadshow, and the expert says, "Oh yeah, that was made by so-n-so". We know something about the maker thru the things he makes. Nature is no different. Ensconced, hidden within Nature is the Natural Law, i.e. The Logos.

Of course Heraclitus use of Logos is totally different from the one it the Gospel of John,which is actually based upon the Hebrew concept of mema, the term logos is really just a loan word for the Hebrew,


In the Laws, Plato asks Clinias the Cretan for a defense against atheism. Clinias says, "Why, Look upon Nature. See Order. Know God". There is Order in Nature. The Order is the Natural Law that "steers all things from within". It is from Jesus Christ.

Of course he didn't say that

Joe Hinman said...

He is off-kelter. The Excess is Internationalism, or the One Large mass of humanity but the deficiency is Individualism, not race. Race/Nation is the Golden Mean between the excess of one large mass of humanity and the deficiency of Individualism which is Libertarianism, Americanism, Anarchism. Many things exist in the Golden Mean and it is Race/Nation that is in the Mean. (By the way, any ideology of Individualism is soft genocide.)

self servings drivel, I have read all this philosophy which I barely understand and I can read into it the basis of my own specialness, I am the philosopher king Phatoneeded,Liberalism is bad because I am me,Liberalism wont let pretend I;'m special.

Joe Hinman said...

Grasshopper notice how there has been no discussion of America civil religion. Because we others, we philosopher kings but divert all attention to our agenda.


O grasshopper, let me explain philosophy to you. Those of us who have been the mortician top, who have seen deeply into the nature of being por soi,who had the presence of mind to buy Kodak, we understand that elegance is a sign o breeding, blood will tell, blood and soil.Breeding is nation and nation is tribe and tribe is which is based upon bloodlines, and bloodlines control land, and land is is soil and silo and bool is breeding and breeding is elegance.

Grasshopper keep your hands from beans,

W.LindsayWheeler said...

@Starhopper. There is a third witness and that of Aristotle. In Aristotle we have a clean observer of reality, one not corrupted with ideology like the modern world we live in today. Aristotle is a Scientist. Plato defines science as "knowing the condition of that which is". Aristotle is about telling us "the condition of that which is". The Greeks are realists, not idealists and true philosophy is a science; it is about knowing reality as is.

In his famous observation, Aristotle notes that man is a Social Animal:

“From these things therefore it is clear that the city-state is a natural growth, and that man is by nature a social animal, 4 (Politics, I, First book, 9; Loeb pg. 9)...And why man is a social animal in a greater measure than any bee or any gregarious animal is clear.
For nature, as we declare, does nothing without purpose; and man alone of all the animals possesses speech.” (ibid, First book, 10; Loeb, pg. 11)

What is the meaning of the word "gregarious"? It means Flocking. When Aristotle writes about being "social", he really means Herd animal. Man is a Herd animal by nature. Look at all the animals that man has domesticated and surrounded himself with. They are all herd animals except the domestic cat. Dogs, Horses, Cows, Sheep, Goats, Chickens are all Herd Animals. What does that tell us?

What is Nation/Race? But a Herd.

So here is a Third witness who speaks truthfully on what he observes in Nature, and this correlates to what the Bible and the Natural Law teach.

W.LindsayWheeler said...

@SteveK. Being for world unity is not anti-Christian. It is the goal - to be united together IN CHRIST. We're not there and we won't ever get there completely (hell is very real), but progress can be made and I am for that.

Being Unitied In Christ, is the act of Baptism. There is NO positive action that a Christian takes for "unity". It happens automatically at Baptism. But that unity of Christianity is broken by Heresy, Apostasy and Error. Many Christians today are Gnostic, a heresy. Others are Apostates. The Unity of Christ is in the Religion of Christianity qua religion. One believer to another but that does not supercede one's racial duties and obligations.

The Unity of Christianity was expressed and acheived in Christendom, of Throne and Altar. Where the King, the Throne, represented the Natural Order and the Archbishop, the Altar, the Spritual Order. Christendom was an actual historical reality. The true actions of Christians did NOT attack the Natural Order. Each king was the head of his racial unit. That did not change.


Now, Hinman asks: "show me the creed where it says that" talking about World Unity. Well, here is a talk from the Chief Rabbi of the London Synagogue, Rabbi Ari Kahn The Messiah where he talks that in order to have the Jewish Messiah, World Unity and a Utopia have to be established.

To bring this into better perspective is this quote from Weisberger, in his book, The Jewish Ethic and the Spirit of Socialism: “Messianism envisions human existence as a three-part process, consisting of an original unity, a middle period in which man has "fallen" into history, and an eschatological final period. Messianism sees history as destined for the restoration of the original unity broken by the sin of Adam. The Jewish discontent with the present is rooted in the feeling of loss of this original harmony and the deep desire for its return. Jewish messianism understands the restoration of the original unity as a public, communal event which occurs on the stage of history. It is here that Jewish and Christian messianism has parted (pg 116)

In other, simpler words, the rebuilding of the Tower of Babel. The original unity mentioned above is the Tower of Babel, the middle part is that men are divided by race, the third part is the rebuilding of the Tower of Babel.

Scripture tells us to not be decieved. What is the origin of your ideology? Is it really Christian---or is it from another religion?

Starhopper said...

"The Unity of Christ [...] does not supercede one's racial duties and obligations."

And here we have it, folks. The racist damns himself, and in his own words.

NOTHING "supercedes" Christ - nothing. May I direct you to The Breastplate of Saint Patrick? Anytime anyone tells you that anything "supercedes" Christ, run!

Victor Reppert said...

The only racial identity that means anything in the Bible is the race of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. But even there Christ transcends the difference.

W.LindsayWheeler said...

And in the Book of Revelation, St. John the Apostle has a vision of heaven. What does he see? First he says there is NO temple. There is NO Church in heaven! But what takes its place is the Lamb Himself.

And then, Chap 21:24, “By the light shall the nations walk; and the kings of the earth shall bring their glory into it. …(26) they shall bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations.”

St. John sees NATIONS in heaven! The Natural Order. The Natural Law is eternal and unchanging and the Natural Law reconstitutes Christendom with its Kings and Nations. Remember the Latin for Nation is “One birth”. The characteristic of a nation, of an ethnos is homogeneity.

So we see that there is NO temple in heaven, meaning the Church proper is not there. The Church Triumphant is split into the Nations just as Jesus said in the Gospel. Go to the Nations, and the saved within them will be reconstituted into their National groupings in heaven.

The real, original Natural Law is eternal and unchanging and as it formed the cosmos, it also works in heaven and in the new rejuvenated cosmos. The real, original Natural Law operates all things, "steering all things from within" (Heraclitus). I see nationalism as a preservative. Nationalism preserves its particular character, homogeneity and culture from dissolution.

Legion of Logic said...

Wheeler said: "Why should we be a minority in our own country?"

I responded: "Whose country isn't it?"

The United States were formed because people from multiple European nations settled in the "New World". Britain happened to come out on top, but then the colonies rebelled and formed its own nation. Then this nation proceeded westward and took land from the natives as well as Mexico. In the meantime, it brought slaves over from Africa and these slaves had children. All these different groups are multiple generations into forming the population of this nation.

So again I ask, whose country isn't it?

W.LindsayWheeler said...

Well, Legion of Logic, what proper English is "Whose country isn't it"? This is absolute garbage sentence. It makes no sense. I have no idea of what you are getting at. If you think you are the paragon of Logic, well, Logic dictates the proper use of language and the creating of sentences in proper English. Language is the sign of Logic. Obviously, it seems you can't write logically. "Whose country is not it?" Makes no sense.

Starhopper said...

To my fellow readers of Dangerous Idea,

Might I suggest we stop feeding this troll? Let him take his racist filth over to some white supremacist website, where he'll feel right at home. I for one hereby pledge that not only will I never again answer one of his postings, I will no longer even read them.

Joe Hinman said...




On Metacrcok's blog

Discussion of what has happened to the right wing political Evangelicals and why their Bible based beliefs did not prevent their loss of values,

Legion of Logic said...

This is absolute garbage sentence.

So is the above quoted sentence, if that's the game you're going to play. You should probably check your own grammar before attempting to criticize someone else for the same.

And you know exactly what I was asking even if you dispute the grammar. You claim the country is yours ("our country") and you claim you do not wish to be a minority in "[y]our own country".

So, in order for you to be a minority in your country, there would by necessity be a majority in your country of which you are not a part. Who would this majority be? Do the members of this majority not have the right to claim the US as their nation? If not, why?

Legion of Logic said...

Wheeler,

You aren't Cal by any chance, are you? I ask because most people, if they were to remove the contraction "isn't" from my sentence, would then write it as "Whose country is it not", rather than "Whose country is not it", as you did. Cal was notorious for intentionally using the improper form of words when "translating" someone else in an attempt to make them appear stupid, a very childish tactic to be sure, and here I find you doing the same. Perhaps English isn't your first language?

Legion of Logic said...

Might I suggest we stop feeding this troll?

Now that he lost his composure and resorted to childish insults toward me as a retort, I don't think it will last much longer anyway.

Joe Hinman said...

Might I suggest we stop feeding this troll?

you are wise grasshopper, you have been learning from my wisdom

Joe Hinman said...

I do want to observe one thing LL, how many atheists have tired to detract from my point by focusing on spelling. He's doing that same thing to you. For get the fact that there is no basis for the assertion that white people own America and other races are second class.Or that that idea is evil and a betrayal of what Amoebic stands for. What's really important is how you use a contraction.

Joe Hinman said...

nd then, Chap 21:24, “By the light shall the nations walk; and the kings of the earth shall bring their glory into it. …(26) they shall bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations.”

St. John sees NATIONS in heaven! The Natural Order. The Natural Law is eternal and unchanging and the Natural Law reconstitutes Christendom with its Kings and Nations. Remember the Latin for Nation is “One birth”. The characteristic of a nation, of an ethnos is homogeneity.

Just a point of countering propaganda, the reference to "the nations" does not mean there were nation states in Heaven. It does not mean races of people, it mean the gentles, it was a euphemism the Jews used for gentiles. being a Jew was not a matter of race because there were people ofthe getielswho became part of the Herew faith,

Legion of Logic said...

Just a point of countering propaganda, the reference to "the nations" does not mean there were nation states in Heaven. It does not mean races of people, it mean the gentles, it was a euphemism the Jews used for gentiles. being a Jew was not a matter of race because there were people ofthe getielswho became part of the Herew faith

Absolutely correct. The same Greek word is translated nations, Gentiles, heathen, etc, and in context are used interchangeably.



W.LindsayWheeler said...

@Joe Hinman, About your contention that the word 'nation' means "gentiles" and is an euphemism----How do you explain "the glory and honor" part? Gentiles don't have "glory and honor", Nations have honor and glory. And what are Kings? But leaders of the Nations. The "glory and honor" nullifies your conclusion.

Yes, the Nation state is there in Heaven. Christendom is re-instituted in Heaven. God's plan is that there are nations and Nations exist in Heaven because God wants it that way. There is a consistent teaching from the Old Testament, to the Natural Law, to Aristotle, to the St. John's vision of what Heaven will be, the Final stage, Nations.

Joe Hinman said...

that nations refers to gentiles very common knowledge. It highlights your ignorance.

All of your doctrines are based upon easygensis, twisting words. here's the scam you pull with this lignite glory thing: It does not say the nations have glory of their own it says they walk by the light of God's glory. Gentiles not countries but people who are gentiles and have found Jesus walk by God's light.

the verse you butcher:

“By the light shall the nations walk; (some translations say by his light or by its light meaning God's glory). the context ios in v 23
"The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp." God is teh light not the glory of nations,



and the kings of the earth shall bring their glory into it. …(26) they shall bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations.”

that is not what it says,the kings are not the nations, their glory is the power of the world man;s glry it will be gien to God not to nations, to God. "to it" refers to the loight of God's glory.

this formulation of blood = races = nationsis sdisproved b y the book of John chapter1
v 9
he true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

v 13 literally says "not of bloods." that does refer to races and to nations but says salvation is not based upon that it is not based upon race or upon a nationality, being a child of God is not a matter of race or nation, So much for your eternal nation crap.

you are trying to create a covenant status for America like Israel had in the OT that is a contradiction to the heart of Christian theology.

Joe Hinman said...

Yes, the Nation state is there in Heaven. Christendom is re-instituted in Heaven.

Christendom was a medieval concept,it's not in the bible. It has no official status in the church.


God's plan is that there are nations and Nations exist in Heaven because God wants it that way.

I just disproved that, John 1:13 says being a child of God is not a matter of bloods


There is a consistent teaching from the Old Testament, to the Natural Law, to Aristotle, to the St. John's vision of what Heaven will be, the Final stage, Nations.

No there is not, Aristotle is not even in concert with other Greeks who talk about a logos,there is no basis in natural law for a special nation ,that is nonsense even Israel was not based upon natural law,

W.LindsayWheeler said...

What is going on here is the lack of concepts. Mr. Hinmon, John 1:13 is about the Christian religion and not about the Natural Order. How many times must I say this: there are TWO different spheres which have different rules. This was very clear under Christendom. The Catholic mentality was a separation between the two spheres. See, when Christendom was destroyed by the Enlightenment, by the Atheists, this idea disappeared; this concept was lost and now Christians are taking their religion and moving it into the material realm. You are taking the tenets of religion and applying them to the Natural Order. True Christianity has NOTHING to do with the Natural Order. The error here in this thread is that many of you are taking the Gospel, and changing the world to suit fanciful religious interpretations. That is NOT orthodox Christianity.

Yes, and all those Children of God are going to be reconstituted into the racial groups in heaven. That verse in John is a somewhat rhetorical flourish. You are taking a religious rhetorical flourish and applying it to the physical material earth? No. That's crazy.

------------------

And there is a problem for those like the Maverick Philosopher who remarked " the Charybdis of racist identity-political particularism." What is going to happen in heaven when God tells him to join his racial group? Is he going to attack God about racist identity? See, if you can't handle it here on earth, you won't be able to handle it in heaven. The Christian God is the God of Order. If one engages in treason against one's kinsmen--how is that going to go down in heaven?

What do you think was the crime of Judas? Jesus said of Judas Iscariot, "It had been better if he had never been born". Throughout the NT, Judas is labelled a traitor. Well, what is the opposite of being a traitor? Loyalty. Loyalty is a Virtue. It is not one of the Ten Commandments. Here the Holy Spirit in the NT makes the case that Judas was a traitor and Jesus condemns him with the harshest sentence.

If you attack your racial group, engage in genocide by subterfuge of your racial group in this world---are you going to heaven to be a member of your nation? Are you adding to the glory and honor of your people in Heaven?

I point to St. Joan of Arc. French Catholic, killed by English Catholics. She is in heaven and she still is French and still is a woman. Our gender remains in heaven and our racial identity remains in heaven! How many Saints are called with a Nationalist adjective? There are hundreds of St. Andrews. I pray to St. Andrew of Crete. He is a Cretan in Heaven. How many times have people said, Jesus is a Jew. Jesus is still a Jew in Heaven. Our ethnic identity is part of our personality. Like our gender is part of our personality. Our Personality is on our soul! The Blessed Virgin Mary is a female in Heaven and is still Jewish. That will never depart from her because that is part of her identity!

For those that attack your own racial group---you will not be going to be going to heaven. If you hate nation here on earth---you will certainly hate it in heaven and because you hate it here on earth, you have committed Treason---and there are no traitors, no Judases, in Heaven.

Legion of Logic said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Legion of Logic said...

For those that attack your own racial group---you will not be going to be going to heaven.

Mark 3:28-29, Wheeler Standard Edition: "All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: But he that shall attack his own race hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation"

Pretty sure there's nothing left to discuss here. A nice perversion of the gospel you have going there, by the way. Also, a nice garbage sentence.

Joe Hinman said...


Blogger W.LindsayWheeler said...
What is going on here is the lack of concepts. Mr. Hinmon,

Hinman--with an "a"

John 1:13 is about the Christian religion and not about the Natural Order. How many times must I say this: there are TWO different spheres which have different rules. This was very clear under Christendom.

Nothing in the bible sets any kind of national order into an eternal doctrine, there is not doctrine of nations,and it certainly does not teach any form of racial superiority. The modern nation state is a construct of the enlightenment it did not exist in Bible times,

The Catholic mentality was a separation between the two spheres. See, when Christendom was destroyed by the Enlightenment, by the Atheists, this idea disappeared; this concept was lost and now Christians are taking their religion and moving it into the material realm.

Catholic theology created a hierarchy governing both secular and sacred."Christendom" is not a Biblical concept it;s a man made idea, we arenot ologated to worry about Christendom

You are taking the tenets of religion and applying them to the Natural Order.

that's what you are doimg by equating blood, race,and nation and putting it in heaven

True Christianity has NOTHING to do with the Natural Order. The error here in this thread is that many of you are taking the Gospel, and changing the world to suit fanciful religious interpretations. That is NOT orthodox Christianity.

that is totally wrong on many levels, there's no reason why government policy should not reflect Christian values, We live in a kind of society that didn't exist in the bible times, modern decorator. The will majority in choosing leaders and participation of all citizens in policy. Those things should reflect our values as Christians, they are not matters of salvation. .you are not going to be saved by being a Democrat or
Republican,

Joe Hinman said...

For those that attack your own racial group---you will not be going to be going to heaven. If you hate nation here on earth---you will certainly hate it in heaven and because you hate it here on earth, you have committed Treason---and there are no traitors, no Judases, in Heaven.

Galation's 1:7-9"Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!"


John 1:12-13
"As MANY AS RECIEVED HIM he gave to them authority, to those who believe on his name,to be the children of God, who not of bloods or of will of flesh nor will of man but of God.

NIV: "12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God."



Joe Hinman said...

For those that attack your own racial group---you will not be going to be going to heaven. If you hate nation here on earth---you will certainly hate it in heaven and because you hate it here on earth, you have committed Treason---and there are no traitors, no Judases, in Heaven.

Wheeler, Not of my authority but of St Paul and the Bible (Galatians) you are preaching a Gospel not other than the Gospel of Christ, Paul says you are anathema,

No one made gave you the authority to pronounce who goes to heaven.you need to worry about your own soul because you are preaching a counterfeit gospel.

One other thing? where do you get the idea that not supporting a notion of racial superiority is attacking your own racial group?

Joe Hinman said...

John 1:13 says salvation is not of bloods it means it is not based upon race

Starhopper said...

Ro return to the original premise of this thread, I believe that the idea of an American civil religion is very dangerous, and ultimately harmful to Christianity. It allows the "faithful" (scare quotes intentional) to externalize their religion - to be satisfied with going through the motions, as it were. It also makes difficult an essential aspect of genuine prophecy, that of speaking truth to power. The Old Testament prophets were rarely on good terms with the kings of Israel. Many of them were martyred. In our own country, some of the greatest exemplars of the Christian faith have served time or otherwise run afoul of "the system", people like Martin Luther King, Dorothy Day, John Lewis, Leonard Grimes, Daniel Berrigan, and many others too numerous to list.

Starhopper said...

That should have been "To return to the original"...

Oh, well. So I sound like Astro on the Jetsons!

W.LindsayWheeler said...

Boy, trying to get things across here is so difficult. I never said salvation is by blood and I never, never intimated that. Why Mr. Hinman you keep on with that is beyond me. Jesus Christ sent the Apostles to the Nations. And those that are saved WITHIN those nations, go to heaven and as our bodies are reconstituted, our nations will be reconstituted, all according to the Natural Law. St. John the Apostle is pretty clear, Nations exist in Heaven. Not everyone that once belonged to any nation will be there---only the saved and born-again. Only those that have accepted Christ---and furthermore have not fallen into error.

--------------

What is the Trinity? The Trinity is very very important. Within the Trinity is some very important concepts because it too, is formed around the Natural Law.

The Trinity has a Unity called God. There is a universal. And yet within the Trinity is particularity. God is One but of Three Persons. Universal, But Particular.

Same thing with Mankind. Mankind is One---but split up into 400 some Particularities called Nations. What Mankind looks like and mirrors, is the Trinity that created us.

We also see hierarchy in the Trinity. Just the appellation of "Father" and "Son" denote rank. Jesus constantly tells us about His obedience to the Will of the Father. We see the paradigm of the Trinity in the Family. We also see the paradigm of the Trinity in the Nation, with Monarch, Aristocracy and commons. 3, 3, 3. Is it any wonder that Aristotle's favorite number was three.

The attack upon Nation is an attack upon the Trinity. If one attacks the particularism of the Cosmos, of the Nation, you surely can't get along with the Trinity. The Trinity teaches a Universal and Particularity. And what we see is the that each has its sphere and its place. We see Respect. Ultimately, those that attack the existence of nation, don't believe or at the very least, understand the Trinity. There are NO Gnostics in heaven.

------

Your attack upon Nation and against its existence, and your vehemence is a sign of another error. Utopianism. God threw us out of the Garden of Eden. It is HERESY to rebuild it. Nowhere does orthodox catholic Christianity teach, proclaim, advance, or advocate the rebuilding of the Garden of Eden. You attack me as if I am a heretic because I'm not with your progressive program. The Left is about rebuilding the Garden of Eden. That will never happen. All Leftists are secular milleniarianists, the seeking of building a utopia. And one of the major building block of Utopian thinking, of milleniarianist ideology, is the getting rid of nations. Nations have existed from time immemorial. They have always existed. It is natural, and commonsense to accept them. For some reason, that has all changed. It is because you have adopted Utopianism, and if some of us disagree---we are called names and are to be put to death for it? Your Utopianism is your Religion---but it ain't orthodox Christianity.

Joe Hinman said...

Boy, trying to get things across here is so difficult. I never said salvation is by blood and I never, never intimated that.

you actually said that racial attitudes can negate salvation.Now you don;t get what that means? You are just selling snake oil.

Joe Hinman said...

Starhopper. excellent point about externalizing faith, I also think civil religion blurts the distinction between God and country and faith politics

W.LindsayWheeler said...

@Joe Hinman, you actually said that racial attitudes can negate salvation.Now you don;t get what that means? You are just selling snake oil.

Now, I'm glad that you make this distinction and brought this up.

Many things are there. Yes racial attitudes are ****signs**** of either orthodoxy or heterodoxy. Do you have the authentic Faith or is one in Heresy. This goes to the Faith; does one have a pure unadulterated Faith or are you compromised with heresy and apostasy.

Again, I go back to II Peter 1:5 : 2 Peter 1:5-7
"For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love."


Faith must be supplemented with Virtue, the first four virtues are Manliness, Righteousness, Temperance, and Prudence. The Virtue of Righteousness teaches us to do our Duty to God, then our Duty to our Fatherland. Ensconced within the Virtue of Righteousness quoted above is the MORAL ORDER. The Virtue of Righteousness also includes the Virtue of Loyalty. If one attacks one's own nation---that means one does not have Virtue. Then one's Faith is not complete and true. The Moral Order directs to right goals in a hierarchy of values. If one isn't doing virtue, one is doing vice.

Knowledge comes third. One must have Knowledge of the Bible and what it teaches. Second, one must have knowledge of the Natural Law. Third, one must have knowledge of Heresies that the Church has condemned. Fourth, one must have knowledge of Modern Errors. Christianity is about the Truth. Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life". Truth is very important. The Way is very important. Fifth, one must have knowledge of Classical Antiquity, especially Hellenism and the Roman Empire to understand the Greek in the New Testament and why what was said in the New Testament. Christianity is a Greek/European religion---not a Jewish religion---(q.v. the parable of the New Wine Skins).

Let's go back to Aristotle. Aristotle taught "health is one thing---but disease is manifold". The same goes for the Health of the Soul is the Health of the Faith one holds--there are many "diseases" or shall we say Heresies that afflict the holding of the true Faith. In that same ltr, St. Peter talks about "destructive heresies".

To attack nations/races and the mechanics thereof, is the sign of Gnosticism, the hatred of particularity, the hatred of nature. The reason given to do so is the Heresy of Sola Gospel, when Jesus clearly commanded that EVERY word that comes from God is to be paid attention to. The third reason to engage in anti-racism campaigns is the Heresy of Utopianism. That many Christians are have been corrupted with the ideology of Masonry and International Socialism. All of the above negate one's salvation.

One must have Purity of Faith, the Consistent teaching of the Church in order to be saved.

Life is a Minefield. Life is War. It is a very dangerous world. St. Peter said, "...beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability".

Joe Hinman said...

your world view is predicated upon fear. faith in Jesus is based upon love. Love casts out fear.