tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post8725373633014991573..comments2024-03-27T15:34:14.749-07:00Comments on dangerous idea: Craig vs. CarrierVictor Repperthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10962948073162156902noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-29684860299849763702009-03-26T11:29:00.000-07:002009-03-26T11:29:00.000-07:00I also give Carrier props for not pretending he wo...I also give Carrier props for not pretending he won the debate. That is extremely rare. Also, I have had friends lose debates and not be able to see it. They actually thought they had won! So double kudos to Richard for his ability to see this. <BR/><BR/>If only he could win a freaking debate (as I think we can all agree, public debates are the best way to decide the truth!).Blue Devil Knighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12045468316613818510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-86338975182387577192009-03-26T10:01:00.000-07:002009-03-26T10:01:00.000-07:00Back to the topic of the original post...Victor: {...Back to the topic of the original post...<BR/><BR/>Victor: {{Apparently Carrier found a debate setting with Craig unhospitable to his verbose style. Why am I not surprised?}}<BR/><BR/>On the other hand, there is some merit to RC's post-debate defense (he pretty graciously acknowledges he technically lost, on his web journal afterward <A HREF="http://richardcarrier.blogspot.com/2009/03/craig-debate-wrap.html" REL="nofollow">here</A>) that the one who puts out the most (strictly speaking) unanswered topics will tend to win formal debates of this sort.<BR/><BR/>Whether that actually happened, I leave to the judgment of those who have already heard the debate. {s} (As also an actual evaluation of content on either side, whether answered or not within the debate.)<BR/><BR/>JRPJason Pratthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01602238179676591394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-9441923827698791262009-03-26T06:23:00.000-07:002009-03-26T06:23:00.000-07:00Very well, anon. I stand corrected. And yet, you...Very well, anon. I stand corrected. <BR/><BR/>And yet, your pointing out my error does nothing whatsoever to address my questions or diminish my overall points. And BDK, your "observations" are still nothing but hand waving nonsense and I suspect you know it. Rather than dismiss me because of a category error, why not address my questions directly?Shacklemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01190598990748327537noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-82843143397257948502009-03-26T06:09:00.000-07:002009-03-26T06:09:00.000-07:00Anon: exactly, otherwise I couldn't have been so d...Anon: exactly, otherwise I couldn't have been so dismissive of Shackledman's puffery.Blue Devil Knighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12045468316613818510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-16101376156780287712009-03-25T23:14:00.000-07:002009-03-25T23:14:00.000-07:00Actually, Shackleman, it looks as though you've co...Actually, Shackleman, it looks as though you've conflated methodological naturalism with metaphysical naturalism. This comes out in the Wikipedia reference you mangled. The passage you cited actually begins:<BR/><BR/><I>Methodological naturalism can be contrasted with metaphysical naturalism or ontological naturalism, which refers to the metaphysical belief that the natural world (i.e. the universe) is all that exists and, therefore, nothing supernatural exists. In metaphysical naturalism's paradigm observable events in nature are explainable only by natural causes.</I><BR/><BR/>It then goes on, in the very next paragraph, to highlight the very conflation you made:<BR/><BR/><I>This distinction between the two types of naturalism is made by philosophers supporting science and evolution in the creation–evolution controversy to counter the tendency of some proponents of Creationism or intelligent design to refer to 'methodological naturalism' as 'scientific materialism' or as 'methodological materialism' and conflate it with 'metaphysical naturalism'</I>.<BR/><BR/>Oh, the irony...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-10741293691217985332009-03-25T22:48:00.000-07:002009-03-25T22:48:00.000-07:00No, BDK. Methodological naturalism: refers to th...No, BDK. <BR/><BR/><B>Methodological naturalism:</B> <I> refers to the metaphysical belief that the natural world (i.e. the universe) is all that exists and, therefore, nothing supernatural exists. In metaphysical naturalism's paradigm observable events in nature are explainable only by natural causes.</I> <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalism_(philosophy)" REL="nofollow"> {source} </A><BR/><BR/>That is not falsifiable. That is not testable. That is an assertion. That is dogma. <BR/><BR/><I>"It was an observation, which indeed is evidence."</I><BR/><BR/>This is laughable, BDK. You can do much better.Shacklemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01190598990748327537noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-41409164931111112622009-03-25T21:30:00.000-07:002009-03-25T21:30:00.000-07:00Shackleman: On the contrary, methodological natura...Shackleman: On the contrary, methodological naturalism has been put to the test for over two centuries, and I'd say it's fared pretty darn well. When your alternative science produces some useful results, let's talk again.<BR/><BR/>Shackel man said:<BR/>"Of course, you have no evidence for such a claim."<BR/><BR/>It was an observation, which indeed <I>is</I> evidence.Blue Devil Knighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12045468316613818510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-37653800274421160522009-03-25T16:13:00.000-07:002009-03-25T16:13:00.000-07:00"like Inter-Varsity, and Campus Crusade for Christ..."like Inter-Varsity, and Campus Crusade for Christ"<BR/><BR/>They hold debates between seasoned Christian and atheist thinkers. At Columbia U., for example, they recently had Alister McGrath speak to the chair of the philosophy dept. who's an atheist. It's not merely employing people with debating skills, because people of both sides have great merit to their knowledge and have sponsors.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-30633708958686545192009-03-25T14:23:00.000-07:002009-03-25T14:23:00.000-07:00(deleted above for completely botched formatting)B...(deleted above for completely botched formatting)<BR/><BR/><B>BDK:</B> <I>"but I find it odd that people's religious beliefs are often treated as some kind of "safe zone" that shouldn't be questioned."</I><BR/><BR/>And I find it odd that methodological naturalism and/or Darwinian Evolution are given the same kind of "safe zone" you're referencing.<BR/><BR/>In the end, BDK, it's all dogma. Your precious science included. {grin}Shacklemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01190598990748327537noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-15075062895892496312009-03-25T14:21:00.000-07:002009-03-25T14:21:00.000-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Shacklemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01190598990748327537noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-57273263311642464892009-03-25T14:12:00.000-07:002009-03-25T14:12:00.000-07:00BDK: "most of them have recently become atheists,...<B>BDK:</B> <I>"most of them have recently become atheists, so are in a phase where they are fairly vocal about it, getting a feel for their beliefs by denouncing what they used to believe."</I><BR/><BR/>Of course, you have no evidence for such a claim. Especially your "most" qualifier. However I agree it's quite plausible that the motivation of some new atheists might be to have their fresh ideas reinforced or tested to see if they can withstand the attacks of a more expert and reasoned counterclaim given by a professional debater such as Dr. Craig. <BR/><BR/>But these pages and blogs like them are frequented by old-hat atheists such as yourself and docot(logic) and Mr. Loftus and others who are not discovering their ideas for the first time. They're quite obviously out to convert. And it's to *them*, and old-hat committed atheists like them, that my confusion is directed toward.<BR/><BR/><B>BDK:</B> <I>"When I was newly atheist, I would go to these things because I actually thought they would make a difference. I would distribute atheist literature there to all the Christians hoping it would help them see the truth, force them to question what I perceived as the dogma they were being fed. I wanted to liberate them from the shackles that I was held in for so long."</I><BR/><BR/>You are making no difference, because if you're right, in the end you, your Christian adversary, and *everything* is ultimately utterly annihilated. More importantly, what are these "shackles" you were so kindly trying to free them from? Having all the sex they ever wanted? Booze? Not loving their neighbors as themselves? Not giving a small percentage of their earnings to the poor? Obeying the laws of the land? Living by the golden rule? Knowing wrong from right? Not stealing, not indulging in gluttony, not being greedy or lustful? What? What so encumbered them, strangers to you, that you felt compelled, out of the goodness of your kind and atheistic heart, to free them from?<BR/><BR/><B>BDK:</B> <I>"Your reason sounds like a stretch as it assumes they are basically deluded and know this at some level and want to be changed. Sort of like those bogus arguments that nobody is really an atheist deep down"</I><BR/><BR/>Please, let's not build a straw man out of post. I gave one *possible* answer to the question "what are the atheist's motivations for giving an audience to events such as these?". I did not make a claim that the potential answer I posed was necessarily true, nor that it was the only one if it were true. Play nice, BDK.<BR/><BR/><B>BDK:</B> <I>"I strongly agree with the Dawkins quote Victor gave"</I><BR/><BR/>I find this line of reasoning given by Dawkins to be a complete canard. Of the approximately 5 BILLION people in the world who are in some form or fashion religious (half of which are followers of some form of monotheism <A HREF="http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html" REL="nofollow">(source) </A>) the fraction of them performing atrocities in the name of their religion approaches near zero. What, maybe .0001% are so far on the fringe that they'll blow themselves up in an attempt to kill non-believers, but the other 99.9999% of them are at best working at the local homeless shelter, and at worst think you're going to hell and tell you so. YIKES!!! RUN FOR THE HILLS, the religious are CRAAAAZY and are trying to kill everyone!!! {yawn}Shacklemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01190598990748327537noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-49792168933079156692009-03-25T11:01:00.000-07:002009-03-25T11:01:00.000-07:00Wes Morriston has recently posted his opening stat...Wes Morriston has recently posted his opening statement and his powerpoint slides from his dialogue with Craig, <A HREF="http://spot.colorado.edu/~morristo/DialogueWithBillCraig.pdf" REL="nofollow">here</A>.exapologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09915579495149582531noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-30480478243573728682009-03-25T10:59:00.000-07:002009-03-25T10:59:00.000-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.exapologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09915579495149582531noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-73097640695584872242009-03-24T21:42:00.000-07:002009-03-24T21:42:00.000-07:00CRAIG RULES!!!!!!!!! HAHAHACRAIG RULES!!!!!!!!! HAHAHAAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-82659284725405291082009-03-24T14:10:00.000-07:002009-03-24T14:10:00.000-07:00PS I strongly agree with the Dawkins quote Victor ...PS I strongly agree with the Dawkins quote Victor gave. It doesn't actually necessarily lead to skepticism or atheism, but I find it odd that people's religious beliefs are often treated as some kind of "safe zone" that shouldn't be questioned.Blue Devil Knighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12045468316613818510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-87908498875323473112009-03-24T14:07:00.000-07:002009-03-24T14:07:00.000-07:00Shackelman: most of them have recently become athe...Shackelman: most of them have recently become atheists, so are in a phase where they are fairly vocal about it, getting a feel for their beliefs by denouncing what they used to believe. Nobody is more annoying than the newly minted Christian or atheist (or ex smoker).<BR/><BR/>When I was newly atheist, I would go to these things because I actually thought they would make a difference. I would distribute atheist literature there to all the Christians hoping it would help them see the truth, force them to question what I perceived as the dogma they were being fed. I wanted to liberate them from the shackles that I was held in for so long.<BR/><BR/>That is a bit of a caricature of my sophomoric self, but not too far off.<BR/><BR/>Now that I've been a nonbeliever for going on two decades, I'm pretty mellow about it. I am happy to admit that there are very smart, not brainwashed, people that are Christians for instance. :) I'm happy to do my science and think about how nature works, and they can do their prayer or whatever and try to convert me (which I find sort of adorable and I have learned to appreciate).<BR/><BR/>Your reason sounds like a stretch as it assumes they are basically deluded and know this at some level and want to be changed. Sort of like those bogus arguments that nobody is <I>really</I> an atheist deep downBlue Devil Knighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12045468316613818510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-80016774934723885732009-03-24T10:59:00.000-07:002009-03-24T10:59:00.000-07:00I know people like Dawkins think that religion imp...I know people like Dawkins think that religion impedes scientific progress and a basis of fanaticism. <BR/><BR/>RD: Many of us saw religion as harmless nonsense. Beliefs might lack all supporting evidence but, we thought, if people needed a crutch for consolation, where's the harm? September 11th changed all that. Revealed faith is not harmless nonsense, it can be lethally dangerous nonsense. Dangerous because it gives people unshakeable confidence in their own righteousness. Dangerous because it gives them false courage to kill themselves, which automatically removes normal barriers to killing others. Dangerous because it teaches enmity to others labelled only by a difference of inherited tradition. And dangerous because we have all bought into a weird respect, which uniquely protects religion from normal criticism. Let's now stop being so damned respectful![76]Victor Repperthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10962948073162156902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-69271395823653052322009-03-24T10:02:00.000-07:002009-03-24T10:02:00.000-07:00BDK said:" "The excited and haughty atheists (usua...<B>BDK said:"</B> <I>"The excited and haughty atheists (usually overwhelmengly the minority), hoping the Christians will see they are wrong."</I><BR/><BR/>This is something I truly don't understand. Why do atheists give an audience to such things as these? Why do they post on Internet message boards and blogs, trying to convert the faithful to their faithless world view? What could possibly be their motivation? I genuinely don't get it. <BR/><BR/>For a Christian, or Muslim, or Jew, a *possible* motivation of theirs might be to save the very souls of those who deny their claims. Well okay, that seems at least on the surface, to be a loving and noble motivation (save for tactics which involve coercion of course). But what then of the atheist's motivation? <BR/><BR/>Do they participate in these things wishing to remove the hope, joy, love and dream of the believers? Why? Why not just let them have their little fantasies if it makes them feel better, if it causes them to better humanity (see Mother Theresa), if it causes them to live moral lives respecting the laws of the land and following the golden rule while donating to the food pantry? Why stop them? Why do they try to wake them from their good dream? <BR/><BR/>If the *committed* atheist is right, then none of it matters anyway. His Christian adversary is doomed to die. Annihilated for all eternity. Why then rain on his parade? Let him have his god if it makes him feel better, for when he's dead he won't even realize he was wrong since there will be no neurons left to signal to him that for his whole life he lived a fairytale. <BR/><BR/>I have my own thoughts on this---because I was once one of those atheists---Might they participate in these types of things because deep down they're in deep distress because of their own depressing world-view and might they therefore be hopeful that someone will finally bring to their attention an argument that will begin their own conversion?Shacklemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01190598990748327537noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-80444001241835108972009-03-24T09:22:00.000-07:002009-03-24T09:22:00.000-07:00Actually, Carrier is as fringe as a holocaust-deni...Actually, Carrier is as fringe as a holocaust-denier, because he doesn't think Jesus ever existed.<BR/><BR/>But hey, don't think that this somehow is a parallel, because only theists can be like holocaust-deniers. Carrier is perfect and awesome.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-40928534680522956142009-03-24T06:47:00.000-07:002009-03-24T06:47:00.000-07:00Anonymous: of course these things are circuses, ex...Anonymous: of course these things are circuses, exercises in mass confirmation bias. Unless you look at them as spectacle, like the freak show at the state fair, I think you will be disappointed. It's all about the entertainment: the Christians coming en masse in their buses, shiney-faced and anxious. The excited and haughty atheists (usually overwhelmengly the minority), hoping the Christians will see they are wrong. Seeing that many of them think something will actually be proven or settled, that who wins really matters.<BR/><BR/>It is wonderful entertainment. Plus, if there is a good debater there, it is always fun to see that.<BR/><BR/>Of course sometimes there is something to learn at these things. Usually it could easily be learned by reading for 10 seconds rather than sitting throught the spectacle.<BR/><BR/>Hence, if you don't enjoy the spectacle, there is no reason to go.<BR/><BR/>Note I realize I've overstated the uselessness of these things, but not much.Blue Devil Knighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12045468316613818510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-54458630321028798412009-03-24T04:43:00.000-07:002009-03-24T04:43:00.000-07:00I worry about how much importance some are putting...I worry about how much importance some are putting on these debates. They are not a substitute for the academic process of critical review among peers within the same academic discipline. People are commenting as though they have the academic research and training required to competently assess the issues brought up in these debates. But they don't -- at least most don't.<BR/><BR/>Duane Gish used to go around and debate famous evolutionists and argue for young earth creationism. He was pretty convincing, too. He was a very polished debater, like Craig, and would often leave his co-debaters sounding like idiots. How many of you, though, are young-earth creationists?<BR/><BR/>There are holocaust-denying debaters who debate famous university professors and historians about the historical facts of the holocaust. They often make them look like idiots as well, making a convincing show. How many of you are holocaust deniers? What, then, do these debates really show?<BR/><BR/>Legitimate critical evaluation regarding an area of specialized knowledge occurs among those who share the level of training, research, and expertise in the relevant discipline that alone puts them in a position to make competent judgements about the arguments and evidence. They are scholars who make contributions in their area of specialization where competent, truth-aimed evaluation can alone take place: in the standard peer-reviewed avenues of conferences and publications in reputable journals and academic presses. <BR/><BR/>But I fear that watching debates of the sort discussed here are, in essence, a way for novices who have a stake in the issues debated to obtain an ill-gotten sense of confidence in their assessment of the evidence of those issues: their religion requires a level of confidence in beliefs that go far beyond common sense and ordinary experience. This creates anxiety, and thus a desire to subdue it by getting the evidence required for that level of belief. Unfortunately, since the relevant evidence belongs to areas of specialized knowledge, they're not trained to competently assess it. <BR/><BR/>Their religious leaders are aware of this problem as well of course. So what do they do? They have para-church organizations, like Inter-Varsity, and Campus Crusade for Christ, who in turn hire people who get the relevant degrees to debate these issues with the relevant scholars. The laymen believers can then attend these, and watch the Inter-Varsity employees use their debating tactics to humiliate the scholar. Again, the result is an illegitimate sense of confidence about specialized knowledge that they are in no position to competently assess. But at least the problem of pumping up their faith to a level their religion requires is solved.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-8320771511747924532009-03-24T02:50:00.000-07:002009-03-24T02:50:00.000-07:00The ONLY debate available out there with Jeff Lowd...The <B>ONLY</B> debate available out there with Jeff Lowder is his debate with Phil Fernandes. And, gee, he only debated with Fernandes thousands of times! No wonder Lowder is good at debating Fernandes. Personally, I'd like to see Lowder debate more formidable Christian debaters before he gets to Dr. William Lane Craig.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-26087453428100266962009-03-23T12:36:00.000-07:002009-03-23T12:36:00.000-07:00Here's a link to the transcript of the debate betw...Here's a link to the transcript of the debate between Craig and <A HREF="http://www.holycross.edu/departments/crec/website/resurrdebate.htm" REL="nofollow">Bart Ehrman</A>, for those who are interested.Andrew T.https://www.blogger.com/profile/07562402977211994270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-36719561570124745682009-03-23T12:34:00.000-07:002009-03-23T12:34:00.000-07:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-3224335492233417872009-03-23T11:44:00.000-07:002009-03-23T11:44:00.000-07:00Oh look, it's Perezoso again. How pathetic. In a l...Oh look, it's Perezoso again. How pathetic. In a lol sort of way.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com