tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post8231708060548033115..comments2024-03-28T12:34:14.649-07:00Comments on dangerous idea: Reply to Hallq on the AFRVictor Repperthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10962948073162156902noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-39816649899583320202009-05-25T17:59:42.718-07:002009-05-25T17:59:42.718-07:00Ilion:
"The probability (and numbers) of some huma...Ilion:<br />"The probability (and numbers) of some human beings taking these alternatives seriously may certainly increase, but the probability of any metaphysic actually being true remains exactly as it always was."<br /><br />Study the monty hall problem. Victor is right.Blue Devil Knighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12045468316613818510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-47884487267605437422009-05-08T22:23:00.000-07:002009-05-08T22:23:00.000-07:00Hallq: I think for many, many people the apparent ...Hallq: I think for many, many people the apparent plausibility of scientific naturalism is a major deterrent to even taking belief in God seriously. Naturalism claims to tie everything together in one ontology and make God unnecessary. Ultimate reality is either ultimately mental, or else the mental is an accidental by-product. Theism, including van Inwagen's theism (and there are actually versions of the AFR which do not require that the mind be non-material, just so long as it is, in the last analysis, intelligently designed), say that the Ultimate Fact that you cannot go behind is mental. The theists have this point right, and the materialistic atheists have it wrong, if my argument is right. <br /><br />In Lewis's case the argument led to theism not directly but indirectly, because he embraced Absolute Idealism as a "halfway house" before becoming a theist. It isn't a very popular halfway house these days, but I have seen people, like Daniel Hutto of the University of Hertfordshire, who hold this kind of position. <br /><br />Let's face it, scientific naturalism is the chief rival to theism at the present time. It's evangelists, like Dawkins are influential, and if you go on the Secular Web you will find it is explicitly dedicated to the defense of naturalism. If it is defeated, the naturalists won't automatically turn to theism (maybe we'll have a revival of Absolute Idealism), but theism will gain in epistemic stature if naturalism collapses.Victor Repperthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10962948073162156902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-26491598010427365132009-05-08T22:20:00.000-07:002009-05-08T22:20:00.000-07:00E.T.Babinski (apparently in materialistic eliminat...<B>E.T.Babinski</B> (apparently in materialistic eliminative reductionist mode): "<I>So tell me Vic, what exactly are "thoughts?"</I>"<br /><br />Sheeseh! You people!<br /><br />Thoughts are thoughts; they don't reduce to anything which is non-thought, nor to anything which is non-mental; they are themselves.<br /><br />As CS Lewis, among others, has noted: "<I>All explanations come to an end</I>."Ilíonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15339406092961816142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-80183476175815216212009-05-08T18:44:00.000-07:002009-05-08T18:44:00.000-07:00Vic,
Just because "thinking" exists, how do you ...Vic, <br /><br />Just because "thinking" exists, how do you get from asserting "thoughts exist" to asserting that a whole "supernatural" world must exist? <br /><br />Your AFR argument fails to impress because your assumptions about what may and may not arise in this cosmos of matter/energy are mere assumptions.<br /><br />And because your assumptions regarding the "non-natural" nature of "reasoning" also fail to impress. Certainly a naturalist views the rise of consciousness and making "rational" distinctions among things as to their sameness or differences, as evolving among brain-body systems. <br /><br />So tell me Vic, what exactly are "thoughts?" Passing the question along to naturalists and then complaining that you'd sooner believe in supernatural explanations for the way your brain-mind functions and makes distinctions of sameness or difference, stores the information, compares and recompares what it knows as more data is added, does not suggest to me that the brain-mind is necessarily doing so "supernaturally."Edwardtbabinskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13036816926421936940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-10790254944821041572009-05-07T18:58:00.000-07:002009-05-07T18:58:00.000-07:00Vic: eliminating materialistic views of the mind d...Vic: eliminating materialistic views of the mind does not automatically raise the probability of theism, because, in addition to eliminating various atheistic views, it also eliminates Peter van Inwagen's view that, while there is an immaterial God, human beings are material beings. Your probability approach could work if you assume the right ratio of prior probabilities, but what's the basis for such an assumption?The Uncredible Hallqhttp://www.uncrediblehallq.net/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-18515494563188618642009-05-06T14:54:00.000-07:002009-05-06T14:54:00.000-07:00"However, if we knock naturalism out, then all the..."<I>However, if we knock naturalism out, then all the alternatives to naturalism have their probabilities increased.</I>"<br /><br />The probability (and numbers) of some human beings taking these alternatives seriously may certainly increase, but the probability of any metaphysic actually being true remains exactly as it always was.Ilíonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15339406092961816142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-87670726878101215702009-05-06T12:36:00.000-07:002009-05-06T12:36:00.000-07:00After C. S. Lewis accepted the argument from reaso...After C. S. Lewis accepted the argument from reason and rejected naturalism, he became, not a theist, but an Absolute Idealist. It isn't popular these days, but it was a major force, maybe even the major force, on the philosophical stage in the 1920s. Lewis took it seriously and found reasons to reject it. <br /><br />However, if we knock naturalism out, then all the alternatives to naturalism have their probabilities increased. If the Cavaliers lose in the playoffs, it enhances the likelihood that the Lakers will win, even if the Lakers don't themselves defeat the Cavaliers.Victor Repperthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10962948073162156902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-15815716855134077282009-05-06T07:57:00.000-07:002009-05-06T07:57:00.000-07:00Unbelievable Hallq, can you not understand that I ...Unbelievable Hallq, can you not understand that I don't give a rat's ass what sets off irrational and/or illogical persons?<br /><br />"<I>Uh... really? Your argument is really that you're just going to dismiss large philosophical traditions as "ad hoc"?</I>"<br /><br />Priceless!Ilíonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15339406092961816142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-30276551142288643902009-05-06T07:47:00.000-07:002009-05-06T07:47:00.000-07:00Vic: Your problem here is that you seem to think t...Vic: Your problem here is that you seem to think that if a certain combination of views happens to be popular, that means we can act as if there's something like a logical relation between the two views. <br /><br />Ilion: Uh... really? Your argument is really that you're just going to dismiss large philosophical traditions as "ad hoc"? Do you know anything about the history of these ideas, or the reasons that have been given for them? Can you really still not understand why people like you set me off on rants?The Uncredible Hallqhttp://www.uncrediblehallq.net/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-63659907716250113342009-05-05T18:22:00.000-07:002009-05-05T18:22:00.000-07:00VR: "If materialism/naturalism is defeated by the ...<B>VR:</B> "<I>If materialism/naturalism is defeated by the argument from reason, then perhaps the most popular alternative to traditional theism goes by the wayside. There are alternatives to theism, ...</I>"<br /><br />As, of course, it does. Those alternatives are so transparently <I>ad hoc</I>.<br /><br />Also, I'm *still* missing the fair question in Hallq's post which ought to be answered.Ilíonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15339406092961816142noreply@blogger.com