tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post7894928730435545094..comments2024-03-28T11:25:20.916-07:00Comments on dangerous idea: John Schellenberg's argument from hiddennessVictor Repperthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10962948073162156902noreply@blogger.comBlogger54125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-26914081728801038292014-07-15T18:39:51.694-07:002014-07-15T18:39:51.694-07:00If you read Hal's comment you could see where ...If you read Hal's comment you could see where I was coming from. If you believe that sin can still be prevalent in the obvious presence of god then that is fine ( though I think sinners would be a bit irrational). All I was saying was that two different Christian responses to the argument from hiddenness were in tension with one another. One response was to say God is hidden because of original sin. Another was that God's hiddenness was necessary for people to have significant moral choices. If Adam and Eve made a significant moral choice in the obvious presence of God, then these two responses are difficult to reconcile. brownmambahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18287697930269397080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-42111373640417930352014-07-15T10:42:55.258-07:002014-07-15T10:42:55.258-07:00brownmamba,
I may be dense, but I also fail to se...brownmamba,<br /><br />I may be dense, but I also fail to see the alleged problem. I'm not sure what the point is that you're driving at. Are you saying that Adam could not have sinned because God's presence was evident? I don't understand how this must be so. After all, Lucifer sinned in the very presence of God. In fact, he may have known nothing except God (and perhaps his fellow angels) when he fell.B. Prokophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10548980245078214688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-82706064151485217172014-07-15T10:19:46.227-07:002014-07-15T10:19:46.227-07:00I think your objection is based on a misunderstand...I think your objection is based on a misunderstanding. When I said "this state of affairs" I was referring to the state in which all humans found themselves not just Adam and Eve. Secondly, the fact that god made himself evident to Adam and Eve presents a problem for the idea that God's existence is not obvious to us beause he wants to give us meaningful moral choices. A and E still sinned with His presence made obvious. See the problem?brownmambahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18287697930269397080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-85850924559024566642014-07-13T23:58:33.424-07:002014-07-13T23:58:33.424-07:00"I am familiar with the doctrine of original ...<i>"I am familiar with the doctrine of original sin, but I do not see the connection between this doctrine and God's hidden nature."</i><br /><br />Read what you wrote:<br /><br /><i>"At the end of the day, if being in a relationship with God is the ultimate purpose of human creation, then the state of affairs in which humans were created would have been set up to meet this end. The fact that in this state of affairs God's existence is easily called into question presents a defeater for belief in such a purpose."</i><br /><br />Your first sentence is true, and this is what Christianity teaches and Genesis describes. Humans were created to meet this end, and were living like that for a short time. <br /><br />Your second sentence is where you go wrong. Christian doctrine doesn't teach that they questioned God's existence. From the text it's quite plain that they knew God existed.SteveKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00497892283006396471noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-44824679083489609042014-07-12T16:41:27.962-07:002014-07-12T16:41:27.962-07:00It seems your imagination is working just fine to ...It seems your imagination is working just fine to me, Bob. Who would have thought that in the 21stC people still obdurately cling to primitive superstition as if their life depended on it. Quite perverse really. But there you have it. <br /><br />It reads like a harangue from the pulpit with all the constituent elements of great Roman melodrama in the mix, demon possession, denial of Jupiter, prurient immorality, licentious behaviour, dismembered babies, whilst concurrently flipping the bird at all things christian.<br /><br />Now that I think of it, it's even clearer. According to Bob, I have gone ...['Exorcist' soundtrack] ...... beyond: <i>"Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate"</i><br /><br />No, Bob's capacity for Dante-esque imagination is beautifully unbounded. Papalintonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03818630173726146048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-517473026071214582014-07-10T08:13:14.860-07:002014-07-10T08:13:14.860-07:00"We should be praising their strength of char..."<i>We should be praising their strength of character, their bravery, their inquisitiveness, their curiosity</i>" etc.<br /><br />And people wonder why I speculate that Linton is possessed by a demon. Here we observe the "slippery slope" in action for all to see - from denial of God, to denial of objective morality, to actively cheering the Fall of Man, to...??? What's next? Imagination fails me. It truly does. Linton already praises deviant lifestyles and the disposal of unwanted children, whilst mocking everything good, true, and holy. The next rung down the ladder will be breathtakingly awful.B. Prokophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10548980245078214688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-22058781395819799892014-07-10T07:34:42.015-07:002014-07-10T07:34:42.015-07:00brownmamba
Your point is precisely why the christ...brownmamba<br /><br />Your point is precisely why the christian interpretation of Adam and Eve and 'original sin' is an apologetical fraud.<br /><br />Adam and Eve knew god. He conversed with them regularly. They were fully conscious and aware of his presenc and of his dictat not to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.<br />And like any intelligent, intellectual, reasoning adults both Adam and Eve decided to find out for themselves as any responsible person should do. And rather being an act of original sin, Adam and Eve made a conscious decision to explore, to investigate, to use their brains.<br /><br />That is not an act of original sin. That is a mark of adult maturation. We should be praising their strength of character, their bravery, their inquisitiveness, their curiosity, because these are the virtues that they exercised against an autocratic, dictatorial, totalitarian parent. They were not going to be his play things but independent, mature, adult persons capable of accepting responsibility for their own acts and deeds. Indeed we celebrate these exact same characteristics today.<br /><br />What Adam and Eve did was to strike out on their own, to lead their own lives. <br /><br />This is the proper interpretation of the Adam and Eve narrative, the growing up and maturing of children into adults. <br />The theological perspective is simply a rendition of vested religious leaders exercising and maintaining social control over a community by inculcating this story about paying deferential heed to those in authority.<br /><br />I think this makes a whole lot more sense than inculcating self=loathing, and debasing oneself as inherently sinful, flawed and unworthy, in need of salvation for something you personally did not commit. <br /><br />No the religiose have got this story arse-about. Papalintonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03818630173726146048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-89557675045468757602014-07-10T03:05:55.339-07:002014-07-10T03:05:55.339-07:00Brownmamba: interesting point
Steve, B. Prokop an...Brownmamba: interesting point<br /><br />Steve, B. Prokop and others:<br />OK, let´s take completely other way in dealing with the topic. Let´s say this:<br /><br />"If anybody doesn´t believe in God´s existence, the only, sole reason and cause of this is that he is morally bad and has an evil will. And this has to be our apriori assumption".<br /><br />No, if anybody disagrees, tell us why and with what.Jakub Moravčíkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03543628674375672591noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-37705720987203998102014-07-09T17:39:22.998-07:002014-07-09T17:39:22.998-07:00I am familiar with the doctrine of original sin, b...I am familiar with the doctrine of original sin, but I do not see the connection between this doctrine and God's hidden nature. Enlighten me if I'm wrong, but I'm guessing the alleged connection is that humankind has fallen away from God because of Adam and Eve's sin. I don't think this appeal solves anything because even if humanity has fallen it still remains true that God can reach out and make his existence more evident. Punishing humanity with his absence is irrational if His purpose is to seek a relationship with all persons.<br /> <br />Moreover, the "original sin" response undercuts another Christian response found in the comments: Without the obvious presence of God, people can make meaningful moral choices, just as a child does without the presence of his parents. However, did not Adam and Eve make a meaningful moral choice? Wasn't God's existence clearly evident? If it wasn't, then the original sin response is false because God was hidden before the fall. If it was evident, then the "moral choice" response is false because moral choices can be made with the obvious presence of God.brownmambahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18287697930269397080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-88717020136733448052014-07-09T12:41:18.681-07:002014-07-09T12:41:18.681-07:00I don't get Fox News. I don't have cable ...I don't get Fox News. I don't have cable or satellite. I get my news online. Fox just turned up close to the top on the Google list, and it also had the video. Some sites didn't. Search on "heart attack wallet stolen" and you'll see this incident was, as I said, WIDELY reported.<br /><br />Thanks for promptly apologizing for your incorrect assumption that this was a bogus story.<br /><br />By the way, I am a conservative Catholic and a liberal Democrat (pro-life), a combination of attributes that is rare in my experience.Sam Calvinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03517785944163539482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-59236766490790430262014-07-09T07:52:50.793-07:002014-07-09T07:52:50.793-07:00Jacob,
Why should atheist or agnostic pay attentio...Jacob,<br /><i>Why should atheist or agnostic pay attention to christian original sin doctrine?</i><br /><br />brownmamba was criticizing Christian doctrine and it was clear that she knew nothing about it. You don't have to believe that Christianity is true, but at least understand it.SteveKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00497892283006396471noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-35034125137236530452014-07-09T07:39:38.338-07:002014-07-09T07:39:38.338-07:00I'm sure this isn't the best response, but...I'm sure this isn't the best response, but it seems to me that the argument is invalid.<br /><br />There is an implicit assumption that everyone who could believe in God "if they tried" has tried. That premise isn't only missing, it seems to me to be false.Steve Lovellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04707435716956109694noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-10972160329181070942014-07-09T03:44:50.377-07:002014-07-09T03:44:50.377-07:00Well, no wonder I hadn't heard of the incident...Well, no wonder I hadn't heard of the incident. I try to steer clear of Faux News.B. Prokophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10548980245078214688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-52269532222507448372014-07-09T03:35:26.671-07:002014-07-09T03:35:26.671-07:00*sigh*
http://fox2now.com/2014/05/15/suspect-stea...*sigh*<br /><br />http://fox2now.com/2014/05/15/suspect-steals-wallet-after-man-collapses-from-heart-attack/Sam Calvinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03517785944163539482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-68323721386291472102014-07-09T03:29:24.744-07:002014-07-09T03:29:24.744-07:00"Recently there was a widely reported inciden..."<i>Recently there was a widely reported incident</i>"<br /><br />Urban legend? Has all the hallmarks of one.B. Prokophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10548980245078214688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-35589737564960438752014-07-09T00:09:35.029-07:002014-07-09T00:09:35.029-07:00**when they think their parents AREN'T watchin...**when they think their parents AREN'T watching**<br /><br />...but i'm sure everybody gets the drift.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-50696193906930890502014-07-09T00:08:46.795-07:002014-07-09T00:08:46.795-07:00^^^^ Sam Calvin: exactly. In the same way, kids us...^^^^ Sam Calvin: <i>exactly</i>. In the same way, kids usually won't act "bad" in front of their parents, even when they want to. Rather, they act bad <i>in secret</i>, when they think their parents are watching. In such moments, true character bubbles to the top. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-77575813981654710832014-07-08T23:50:13.698-07:002014-07-08T23:50:13.698-07:00Recently there was a widely reported incident wher...Recently there was a widely reported incident where a man had a heart attack (or at least gave the appearance of such) and another man, when he saw that other witnesses to this event were looking elsewhere, quickly pocketed the poor victim's wallet.<br /><br />A surveillance camera recorded the incident.<br /><br />How likely is it that this thief would have done what he did if he had observed that the camera was recording him?<br /><br />I think this event is rather obviously relevant to the topic at hand.Sam Calvinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03517785944163539482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-2380764830934651992014-07-08T23:26:48.002-07:002014-07-08T23:26:48.002-07:00A few more angles:
1) The argument requires that ...A few more angles:<br /><br />1) The argument requires that determinism be false to work (cf. "freely" in 1). This means that all determinists (read: most atheists) cannot honestly wage Schellenberg's argument. It also means the theist who wishes to reject this argument may simply deny that one can "freely" shut his or herself out. And it all ends there. Or...<br /><br />2) 2 is easily demonstrable as false. I don't have to believe Victor exists in order to "be in a position to participate in [a meaningful] relationship" with him. By default, I'm already in the position to have a meaningful relationship with any other entity capable such relationships and communicating with me. In other words, reality is not contingent on belief.<br /><br />The argument really strikes me as pedestrian. When you strip the verbosity it reduces to, "atheists exist, therefore God does not." And we all can agree that's bunk.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-41541072539365883732014-07-08T22:54:27.316-07:002014-07-08T22:54:27.316-07:00The argument can't even get off the ground. 2 ...The argument can't even get off the ground. 2 has no justification and ought to be questioned and/or rejected. 3 does not follow from 1 or 2, and also has no justification.<br /><br />Some student emailed me through TWIM a while back asking what I thought of this argument. I took a longer look then and forgot all about it until now. And now I'm even more convinced it's bunk and that the vast majority of "atheist arguments" are just vapid straw grasping at best.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-87041912331635024452014-07-08T21:57:23.539-07:002014-07-08T21:57:23.539-07:00"brownmamba,
Have you read Genesis? Does orig...<i>"brownmamba,<br />Have you read Genesis? Does original sin mean anything to you?"</i><br /><br />Original sin only exists if Adam and Eve actually existed. But A & E is largely conceded to not to have been real live people, the alpha and beta of the human species, but allegory. Most thinking and level-headed christians accept the Adam and Eve story to be allegory. If no A & E actually existed to perpetrate the original sin, it stands to reason that there was no actual original sin committed. How does one commit a metaphor?<br /><br />Equally, if there was no actual real live Adam and Eve to commit original sin then it stands to reason that no jesus could have died as a redemptive sacrifice for some original sin that was never actually committed after which all of humanity was vicariously saved.<br /><br />The story simply does not hang together as a cogent narrative about actual events. The story is the smoke and mirrors manifestation of a primitive mythos believed as reality. <br />Papalintonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03818630173726146048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-59039097433674174212014-07-08T21:55:46.848-07:002014-07-08T21:55:46.848-07:00Why should atheist or agnostic pay attention to ch...Why should atheist or agnostic pay attention to christian original sin doctrine?Jakub Moravčíkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03543628674375672591noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-80292289430320719482014-07-08T21:27:54.657-07:002014-07-08T21:27:54.657-07:00brownmamba,
Have you read Genesis? Does original s...brownmamba,<br />Have you read Genesis? Does original sin mean anything to you?SteveKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00497892283006396471noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-50320885516614796942014-07-08T19:56:11.337-07:002014-07-08T19:56:11.337-07:00The fact that the Judeo-Chrisitan God allegedly se...The fact that the Judeo-Chrisitan God allegedly seeks a relationship with humankind and yet the existence of God can very well be doubted presents a very strong problem for this brand of theism. Potential rebuttals can claim all sorts of things,(such as "everyone really believes in God but they just repress it"), but these objections all strike me as ad hoc, hand waving answers that I cannot seriously entertain. At the end of the day, if being in a relationship with God is the ultimate purpose of human creation, then the state of affairs in which humans were created would have been set up to meet this end. The fact that in this state of affairs God's existence is easily called into question presents a defeater for belief in such a purpose.brownmambahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18287697930269397080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-2412217551025513042014-07-08T07:45:56.048-07:002014-07-08T07:45:56.048-07:00"What about people who either are not aware o..."<i>What about people who either are not aware of this argument or don't think it works?</i>"<br /><br />Whether or not a particular individual either is aware of some fact, or whether or not he believes it to be true, has ultimately no bearing on whether or not it is true. <br /><br />"<i>Eppur si muove!</i>B. Prokophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10548980245078214688noreply@blogger.com