tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post6523662577363541237..comments2024-03-27T15:34:14.749-07:00Comments on dangerous idea: Blatant ad hominem?Victor Repperthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10962948073162156902noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-16548391334294574872013-10-17T12:01:47.515-07:002013-10-17T12:01:47.515-07:00Perhaps you've completely missed the point of ...Perhaps you've completely missed the point of Fantasy literature and its relationship with 'God'. Two points:<br /><br />1. Christianity cannot be explained in logical/rational language. <br />Our world is based on language... created by humans. We can only understand the world based on language/symbols. (Read Lacan for more on this)<br /><br />2. Fantasy Literature offers us an alternative route to understanding 'God' or a 'superior reality'. Humans can only see through the murkiness of symbols/language. <br />Fantasy doesn't show the true picture. Just an 'idea' of it. This is the only way we can possibly 'see' a superior reality. <br /><br />Logic, like language, works within the confines of our human understanding. It may function perfectly in our perceived universe, but that doesn't mean it gives truth to everything.<br /><br />Those who understand how Fantasy can be "true", will understand how 'God' 'exists'.<br /><br />I'm not saying fantasy fiction = God must exist. I'm just trying to point out that boxing it into a 'logical argument' is never going to work.Jhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10667949867684543412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-72127920949587069412012-03-03T14:49:19.877-07:002012-03-03T14:49:19.877-07:00Hi Papa,
I'm still wondering what you mean b...Hi Papa, <br /><br />I'm still wondering what you mean by claiming that Lewis's <i>Mere Christianity</i> is "steeped in personal experience"?Bilbohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06231440026059820600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-37015534882252858522012-03-02T08:55:17.719-07:002012-03-02T08:55:17.719-07:00But Paps you don't have any intellectual in in...But Paps you <b>don't</b> have any intellectual in integrity.<br /><br />We have all seen you rant against even fellow Atheists just because they don't endorse your narrow brand of Fundie Atheist dogma.<br /><br />Remember Jesse? He showed why the OTF was unworkable & you couldn't handle it. <br /><br />The man had to beat you over the head to even get you to believe he was rejecting the argument. <br /><br />>"And they all said, 'Wow, terrific, if that works for you that's great.'"<br /><br />Yes that is a funny story but I've heard it before in conservative religious circles which is why I reject liberal religion.<br /><br />You are a good story teller at best but you are still a lousy thinker & you clearly seem to set in your ways to change.Son of Ya'Kovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05645132954231868592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-70818006521203996992012-03-01T16:55:55.248-07:002012-03-01T16:55:55.248-07:00"The humanist philosopher Simon Blackburn rec..."The humanist philosopher Simon Blackburn recounts a wonderful anecdote told to him by a colleague about a high-powered interfaith panel discussion. Each speaker took turns to explain some key ideas of their faith – Buddhist, Hindu and so on – and the response from other panel members was always along the lines of: "Wow, terrific, if that works for you that's great." The same response greeted the Catholic priest who talked of Christ and salvation, but instead of being pleased with their enthusiasm "he thumped the table and shouted: 'No! It's not a question of if it works for me! It's the true word of the living God, and if you don't believe it you're all damned to hell!'"<br /><br />"And they all said, 'Wow, terrific, if that works for you that's great.'"<br /><br />[from Dawkins website]Papalintonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03818630173726146048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-43217773671960692792012-03-01T16:06:15.403-07:002012-03-01T16:06:15.403-07:00"Papalinton, I'm giving up on you. You ha..."Papalinton, I'm giving up on you. You have no intellectual integrity."<br /><br />Just the bleating of another prodded goat whose cupboard of theist evidence is found bare.<br /><br />From Jack Huberman, best selling American author, wrote of: <i> H.P.Lovecraft; American fantasy, horror and science fiction author. STEPHEN KING called him the greatest master of the classic horror tale. Before age five, announced he no longer believed in Santa Clause. "Further thought convinced him that arguments for the existence of god suffered the same weaknesses", a biographer wrote. At Sunday School, "when the feeding of christian martyrs to the lions came up, Lovecraft shocked the class by gleefully taking the side of the lions."</i><br /><br />Lovecraft: "If religion were true, its followers would not try hard to bludgeon their young into an artificial conformity, but would merely insist on their unbending quest for truth."<br /><br />One can always gauge the level of indoctrination and the 'truth' of christian theism by the fervor and intensity of subsequent reactions of believers of cries of disbelief, isolation, rejection, threats, intimidation, warnings, menace, bullying and harassment of those that speak they do not believe in god[s]. <br />How many recent reports do you wish me to raise to reflect this mode of response?Papalintonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03818630173726146048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-69151836469880677362012-03-01T15:26:53.852-07:002012-03-01T15:26:53.852-07:00Papalinton, I'm giving up on you. You have no ...Papalinton, I'm giving up on you. You have no intellectual integrity. You lack utterly the habitus of truth. You know how they say of a scientific hypothesis that "it's not even wrong?" <br /><br />Well, you're not even a liar.PatrickHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04864910409538457529noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-64947718460096092342012-02-29T11:13:00.981-07:002012-02-29T11:13:00.981-07:00And Papa,
I'm still wondering what you mean ...And Papa, <br /><br />I'm still wondering what you mean by claiming that Lewis's <i>Mere Christianity</i> is "steeped in personal experience"?Bilbohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06231440026059820600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-15454051441630895872012-02-29T11:11:04.174-07:002012-02-29T11:11:04.174-07:00Okay, I couldn't find a synonym for "argu...Okay, I couldn't find a synonym for "argument" that started with 'f'. So for my third premise, I came up with: <br /><br />1.3: All arguments offered by wholly imaginative authors are always awful.Bilbohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06231440026059820600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-41552242429813211362012-02-29T08:29:56.415-07:002012-02-29T08:29:56.415-07:00Ben,
Quote please? Because Plantinga does offer r...Ben,<br /><br /><i>Quote please? Because Plantinga does offer rational argument for his beliefs(which can be evaluated philosophically). </i><br /><br />What Plantinga believes is that belief in God can be properly basic, and that basic beliefs need no argument. That's utterly different from claiming there are no arguments for God's existence (Plantinga gives, supports and names a variety throughout his career), much less that there are no arguments for particularly religious beliefs (Christian, etc).<br /><br />I'd recommend his latest book. It's actually pretty damn good.<br /><br />And, as ever, some <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYVw9uyiGwQ" rel="nofollow">teacher humor</a>. ;)Crudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04178390947423928444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-91418334610496873302012-02-29T07:49:22.094-07:002012-02-29T07:49:22.094-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Son of Ya'Kovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05645132954231868592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-70095675070106930812012-02-29T07:49:06.801-07:002012-02-29T07:49:06.801-07:00>Plantinga's belief in god does not rely on...>Plantinga's belief in god does not rely on any form of evidence. He admits so himself. <br /><br />Quote please? Because Plantinga does offer rational argument for his beliefs(which can be evaluated philosophically). <br /><br />He doesn't believe empiricism is the end all & be all standard of knowledge unlike certain ex-fundamentalist Christians turned fundamentalist Atheist advocates of Scientism. <br /><br />Even Atheist philosophers like Stephen Law notes not all knowledge is strictly empirical in his take down of Dawkins and Atkins.<br /><br />http://stephenlaw.blogspot.com/2012/02/magadalen-college-last-night-think-week.html<br /><br />Paps you are a public school teacher what do you know?;-)Son of Ya'Kovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05645132954231868592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-89965780578452453982012-02-28T22:21:04.082-07:002012-02-28T22:21:04.082-07:00PatrickH
"He has not "struggled" wi...PatrickH<br />"He has not "struggled" with the lack of evidence for belief in God."<br /><br />Exactly right. Plantinga's belief in god does not rely on any form of evidence. He admits so himself. There is no struggle for him to believe in god without evidence. There is no evidence, period. Unless of course one uses the theist's definition of 'evidence' that includes 'revelation' as a source of evidence. <br /> Plantinga's struggle is in search of a replacement substitute for evidence to justify why he believes in god[s] that is imagines is a little more substantive than revelation.<br /><br />"... Plantinga, who has provided many arguments for the existence of God ..."<br />As was commented before, "Plantinga is smart and comes up with interesting arguments, but do not confuse that with saying he comes up with correct, plausible or rational arguments though." You, PatrickH, confirmed as much in your comment, "Plantinga is a theist, Linton".<br /><br />However, PatrickH, should you wish to fool yourself in Plantinga's reverie, knock yourself out.Papalintonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03818630173726146048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-33919188424722311652012-02-28T16:35:29.628-07:002012-02-28T16:35:29.628-07:00Hi Papa,
You described Lewis's Mere Christia...Hi Papa, <br /><br />You described Lewis's <i>Mere Christianity</i> as a "deeply apologetical work steeped in personal experience."<br /><br />I'm curious. What exactly do you mean by "steeped in personal experience"?Bilbohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06231440026059820600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-23816375688508355802012-02-28T15:19:41.696-07:002012-02-28T15:19:41.696-07:00>Why would a zoologist be less likely to defend...>Why would a zoologist be less likely to defend true propositions in the area of religion than a philosophy professor at Notre Dame?<br /><br />Because Philosophy professors both Atheistic and Theistic have shown that particular zoologist specific arguments are pure bullshit. <br /><br />Victor who is a philosophy professor has written and defended the Argument from Reason.<br /><br />I can extensively tell you why the Ulimate Boeing 747 argument from the Zoologist is crap and as Atheist Michael Ruse said "an embarrassment" or "amateurish" as Thomas Nagel(also an Atheist) has said about the Zoologists arguments. <br /><br />Why not give me reasons why the AFR is wrong?Son of Ya'Kovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05645132954231868592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-82369463294749372222012-02-28T10:43:27.361-07:002012-02-28T10:43:27.361-07:00Where in the world do I argue the infallibility of...Where in the world do I argue the infallibility of Lewis? <br /><br />Part of what I have always contended, for example, is that Elizabeth Anscombe made criticisms of Lewis's original AFR which were well-taken. They were not, however, fatal to the argument as a whole.Victor Repperthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10962948073162156902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-7620111181808099312012-02-28T10:28:22.591-07:002012-02-28T10:28:22.591-07:00Philip Pullman writes fantasy, so everything he sa...Philip Pullman writes fantasy, so everything he says about religion must be rubbish, according to Pappy's argument.Keen Readerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18171491573514489497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-21444571223874563172012-02-28T09:54:29.641-07:002012-02-28T09:54:29.641-07:00Plantinga is a theist, Linton. He has not "st...Plantinga is a theist, Linton. He has not "struggled" with the lack of evidence for belief in God. He has pointed out that belief in God may be properly basic, in the way that belief in a really existing past, a really existing external world, other selves, etc. are. You created, incompetently, the impression that Plantinga, who has provided many arguments for the existence of God, is somehow struggling so hard with the absence of evidence that he's come up with the properly basic approach as a desperation measure. You're not honest, and you massively misrepresented Platinga with every word of your botch job.PatrickHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04864910409538457529noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-82344252755252257262012-02-28T06:05:32.058-07:002012-02-28T06:05:32.058-07:00Cristofer Urlaub
Following on:
" ... but rath...Cristofer Urlaub<br />Following on:<br />" ... but rather, that his reasoning, steeped in personal experience, is basically the argument from religious experience?"<br /><br />Cristofer, one of the best sites and conversations that I have read in respect of personal experience and the nature of subjectivity can be found here:<br /><br />http://www.achristianandanatheist.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2668<br /><br />I commend the reading.Papalintonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03818630173726146048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-37301936739414065992012-02-28T04:32:55.806-07:002012-02-28T04:32:55.806-07:00C.S.Lewis was a remarkable man.
His books are inf...C.S.Lewis was a remarkable man.<br /><br />His books are infallible, without a single error in logic or fact on any page.<br /><br />Just ask Victor.<br /><br />Compare that with Dawkins where even fellow-atheists have taken him to task over parts of 'The God Delusion'Maths Tutor Wirralhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06043572594882614573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-83774385921227347902012-02-28T04:22:18.760-07:002012-02-28T04:22:18.760-07:00'Why would a fantasy fiction writer be less li...'Why would a fantasy fiction writer be less likely to defend true propositions in the area of religion...'<br /><br />Why would a zoologist be less likely to defend true propositions in the area of religion than a philosophy professor at Notre Dame?Maths Tutor Wirralhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06043572594882614573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-86932407607451521132012-02-28T01:05:43.456-07:002012-02-28T01:05:43.456-07:00Cristofer Urlaub
" ... therefore his apologet...Cristofer Urlaub<br />" ... therefore his apologetics should not be taken seriously ..."<br /><br />No, not at all. Treat his apologetics as seriously as your would wish. Simply don't trot it out as proof or evidence for the existence of god[s]. <br /><br />Treat christianity as the truth in the same way you would treat any other but different religious tradition as truth. That is all I am asking. Not an unreasonable entreaty by any stretch. Just as humanity once believed in Mithraism, or Greek and Roman polytheism, or the three thousand year life-span of the Egyptian pantheon, they were all true and held in reverential awe. But as history attests they were a product of their times, now forgotten. Gods don't die. They are forgotten. Christianity is no less being forgotten as other forms of religion emerge within their cultural milieux. Some recent examples that demonstrate this trend has been the emergence of the Mormons, with a very different 'truth' about the historical context that informs its basic tenets. And the emergence of Scientology, equally and consciously eschewing the apparent 'truths' of christianity, even though and despite two thousand years of supposed truth of tradition. <br /><br />Much of the New Age spiritualist movements of the Deepak Chopras [and James Redfield, Eckhart Tolle and John Holland, to mention a few] of this world is emblematic of society voting with their feet away from institutional religion to more eclectic and inclusive forms of experience. To the chagrin of both the catholic church and the Southern Baptist Convention. Theism in the New Age movement is reflected in a more general and abstract idea of gods, understood in many ways and seen as superseding the need to anthropomorphize deity.<br /><br />Clearly, today's people no longer consider the god of catholicism or protestantism as true. And indeed are progressively forgetting him, as people are want to do with old gods.Papalintonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03818630173726146048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-43891820648309445582012-02-27T23:45:47.330-07:002012-02-27T23:45:47.330-07:00Papalinton -
So if I understand you correctly, y...Papalinton - <br /><br />So if I understand you correctly, you're issue with CS Lewis, at least in this discussion, is not that he is a fiction writer, therefore his apologetics should not be taken seriously, but rather, that his reasoning, steeped in personal experience, is basically the argument from religious experience?<br /><br />Do I understand you correctly?Cristofer Urlaubhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04001401371451376407noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-59089121293157744382012-02-27T22:27:31.286-07:002012-02-27T22:27:31.286-07:00Bilbo
"Have you read Lewis's Mere Christi...Bilbo<br />"Have you read Lewis's Mere Christianity?"<br /><br />Yes. A deeply apologetical work steeped in personal experience.<br />I might add, the basis of the claim, 'Lewis's Trilemma', has been roundly challenged by both theological and secular scholars and found wanting. N T Wright, and John Hicks are a few that have critiqued Lewis's perspective. Other philosophers have modified the 'Liar, Lunatic, Lord' trilogy to include "Legend'.<br /><br />Lewis was a naturally mythopoeic writer and this aspect of his writing is clearly visible in his treatment of ' Mere Christianity.'Papalintonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03818630173726146048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-37797581703725916122012-02-27T21:44:31.892-07:002012-02-27T21:44:31.892-07:00>There is scientifically informed philosophy an...>There is scientifically informed philosophy and there is scientifically uninformed philosophy. <br /><br /><b>Paps you see equates Atheism, naturalism and materialist reductionism with "Science".</b> <br /><br />Thus if you don't assume these views(which are given without argument) or accept them as properly basic like Paps does then you are not "scientific".<br /><br />Give me a break Gnu!<br /><br />To claim Plantinga's philosophy is "not informed by science" is just begging the question.<br /><br />Mind you Plantunga's philosophy here employs Ontological Arguments for the Existence of God which are anathema to the traditional Thomist.<br /><br />You want to critique Plantinga Paps?<br /><br />Here is how it's done.<br /><br />http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2010/12/plantingas-ontological-argument.html<br /><br />Paps you need to at least start reading Atheist philosophers. Coyne is an idiot. He doesn't know philosophy from his own arsehole.<br /><br />Atheist philosopher Stephen Law recently spanked Dawkins and Atkins for their anti-philosophy bullshit.<br /><br />http://stephenlaw.blogspot.com/2012/02/magadalen-college-last-night-think-week.html<br /><br />So I will give him Kudos for that.<br /><br />Anti-philosophy and the ignorance of philosophy among Gnus will simply not due.<br /><br />It's a form of fundamentalism for non-believers.Son of Ya'Kovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05645132954231868592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-14733005432061352732012-02-27T20:21:23.170-07:002012-02-27T20:21:23.170-07:00Hi Papa,
It's difficult to tell when you are...Hi Papa, <br /><br />It's difficult to tell when you are quoting someone and when you are just making your own comment. Have you read Lewis's <i>Mere Christianity</i>?Bilbohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06231440026059820600noreply@blogger.com