tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post6298988007324610665..comments2024-03-18T11:10:18.708-07:00Comments on dangerous idea: Hate the sin and love the sinnerVictor Repperthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10962948073162156902noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-68073486495140734712009-03-06T08:05:00.000-07:002009-03-06T08:05:00.000-07:00Ilion,I am not an unserious person, let alone a "p...Ilion,<BR/><BR/>I am not an unserious person, let alone a "profoundly unserious" one.<BR/><BR/>Since you do not have the decency to answer straight forward questions when put to you, or to avoid using insulting monikers like "profoundly unserious person #2" when Gordon's name and mine are available to you, I feel free to ignore the rules I'd usually impose on myself in a forum like this.<BR/><BR/>You are, Ilion, a <I>profoundly stupid</I> person.<BR/><BR/>Other people are not required to accept your assertions on morality (or anything else)simply because you assert them. <BR/><BR/>You make blanket assertions about people and then accuse commenters of playing games when they ask you to explain yourself. That is childish in the extreme. (Indeed I am reminded of arguments from primary school.) I think you need to limit yourself to less intellectual websites than this one.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-32330553889928940342009-03-05T14:19:00.000-07:002009-03-05T14:19:00.000-07:00Profoundly Unserious Person #2, Sorry, I don't pla...Profoundly Unserious Person #2, <BR/>Sorry, I don't play the game you want to play: you're not *interested* in getting at truth. Hell, you're not even interested in understanding what I've said already.Ilíonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15339406092961816142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-3794719997865802952009-03-05T05:45:00.000-07:002009-03-05T05:45:00.000-07:00Ilion,Since you find Gordon Knight so "profoundly ...Ilion,<BR/><BR/>Since you find Gordon Knight so "profoundly unserious," perhaps you can enlighten us as to:<BR/><BR/>1. How homosexual acts are in and of themselves always immoral,<BR/><BR/>and<BR/><BR/>2. How you know gay people never have their lives ruined by the anti-gay hatred of others, but rather only by their own sex lives.<BR/><BR/>I'm sure we all look forward to your answers.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-86336466280349338442009-03-05T05:39:00.000-07:002009-03-05T05:39:00.000-07:00Victor, You're welcome! I'm glad you appreciated C...Victor, <BR/><BR/>You're welcome! I'm glad you appreciated Corvino's piece. <BR/><BR/>I probably should post a link to your comments at the site Corvino's editorial is on.<BR/><BR/><I>"But in order to have a civilized society, you have to hate the sin and love the sinner. You have to associate with people whose actions you disapprove of and whose beliefs you disagree with heartily."</I><BR/><BR/>An excellent point.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-7770773920397800932009-03-05T01:28:00.000-07:002009-03-05T01:28:00.000-07:00VR: "The anti-GLBT hate does not follow necessaril...<B>VR:</B> "<I>The anti-GLBT hate does not follow necessarily from the doctrine that homosexuality is sinful, ... </I>"<BR/><BR/>The doctrine in *not* that "homosexuality" is sinful. The doctrine is that homosexual acts -- along with all other sexual immorality -- is sinful.Ilíonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15339406092961816142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-44149370419027244292009-03-05T01:25:00.000-07:002009-03-05T01:25:00.000-07:00Profoundly unserious man: "... Being a "gay fundam...<B>Profoundly unserious man:</B> "<I>... Being a "gay fundamentalist" does seem irrational, until you hear the horror stories, of how anti-gay hate has ruined people's lives.</I>"<BR/><BR/>Well, no, sexual immorality has ruined people's lives.Ilíonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15339406092961816142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-10072978898268440492009-03-02T21:15:00.000-07:002009-03-02T21:15:00.000-07:00Gordon wrote---In other words, "gay fundamentalism...Gordon wrote---<I>In other words, "gay fundamentalism' results from the remarkably virulent anti-gay feeling that is often draped in theological cloth.</I><BR/><BR/>Virulent anti-gay feeling? Aside from the "God hates gays" guy, I don't know what you mean. The "gay fundamentalist" [I love the sound of that] is not railing against some merciless attack. No, they're railing against a simple "No" vote on a referendum, anyone who doesn't believe a marriage between two men is the same as a marriage between a man and a woman. <BR/><BR/>I think the gay rights movement has come full circle. In the 70s, they fought against mean-spirited laws that held that teachers could be fired if they were known to be gay. They succeeded because the law was mean-spirited. Who would deny a living to someone based on a personal preference? Now, we see GFs throwing condoms at people in church services and seeking to ruin people who don't agree with them. They are becoming the kind of mean-spirited rabble they once rightfully opposed. With such a draconian approach, gays will end up an island unto themselves.Jim Jordanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12456957270007304493noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-22141872375872635582009-03-02T18:49:00.000-07:002009-03-02T18:49:00.000-07:00We can explain their response this way, but we sti...We can explain their response this way, but we still have to maintain our distinctions. The response may be in some way understandable, but it is wrong and ultimately self-defeating.Victor Repperthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10962948073162156902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-19225839392034726782009-03-02T18:13:00.000-07:002009-03-02T18:13:00.000-07:00Of course they are logically distinct, but we shou...Of course they are logically distinct, but we should not be deaf to real life consequences that follow from fairly abstract philosophical considerations.<BR/><BR/>In other words, "gay fundamentalism' results from the remarkably viralent anti-gay feeling that is often draped in theological cloth.Gordon Knighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03223834584232283601noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-40256053307461061052009-03-02T17:34:00.000-07:002009-03-02T17:34:00.000-07:00The anti-GLBT hate does not follow necessarily fro...The anti-GLBT hate does not follow necessarily from the doctrine that homosexuality is sinful, nor does it follow from the existence of conduct codes that proscribe this conduct. Issue separation is required here.Victor Repperthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10962948073162156902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-37533845973482079832009-03-02T17:21:00.000-07:002009-03-02T17:21:00.000-07:00It seems that it would be in the interests of the ...It seems that it would be in the interests of the GLBT community to proceed a little more carefully. Instead of polarizing the debate (or being enablers to that end) they ought to try and take the higher ground here.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-14392925973416519762009-03-02T16:23:00.000-07:002009-03-02T16:23:00.000-07:00Victor,I agree with much of what you say, but I th...Victor,<BR/><BR/>I agree with much of what you say, but I think what is missing is the context. I have some experience in small Christian Colleges, and I can attest that the attitude of the more conservative Christians was not "hate the sin, love the sinner," but rather, "hate the sin, and harrass the sinner"<BR/><BR/>There is real anti-gay prejudice, and it causes a lot of suffering, including suicide and the occasional commital to some weird re-education camp. Not the mention the suffering that happens from being shunned, or the guilt. <BR/><BR/>I get the impression that sophisticated conservative Christians are sort of oblivious to how Joe and Shane shmoe, at God is love U, may take the "homosexuality is a sin" view as a licence to hate and harass.<BR/><BR/>Being a "gay fundamentalist" does seem irrational, until you hear the horror stories, of how anti-gay hate has ruined people's lives.Gordon Knighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03223834584232283601noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-7062601806633786462009-03-02T14:05:00.000-07:002009-03-02T14:05:00.000-07:00Actually, I agree. Tell that to the fundamentalist...Actually, I agree. Tell that to the fundamentalists on your site, who consider a Dennett a sign of the anti-christ or something. <BR/><BR/>How you set up the issue leaves something to be desired: if the post is about fostering tolerance between believers and non-believers, OK--though most non-believers have plenty of war stories of dealing with fundies (even in California). You had to resort to the Ad DeGeneres.Perezosohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01875109580933192779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-19643068970528334482009-03-02T13:50:00.000-07:002009-03-02T13:50:00.000-07:00Perry: What are you talking about? What I am defen...Perry: What are you talking about? What I am defending is the necessity of civilized relations with people with whom we disagree and whose conduct we disapprove of. I didn't even attack atheists in general. Just some want to cut off intelligent dialogue with believers and put us in cultural zoos.Victor Repperthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10962948073162156902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-11753764700466154642009-03-02T13:38:00.000-07:002009-03-02T13:38:00.000-07:00I think you just have to make the case that this k...I think you just have to make the case that this kind of "gay fundamentalism" is inherently self-defeating and cuts off the process of dialogue that is essential to their own well-being. If that fails, you're out of luck.Victor Repperthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10962948073162156902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-69679553240258640842009-03-02T13:36:00.000-07:002009-03-02T13:36:00.000-07:00GLBTs of faith, and there are many of those. Yeah,...<I>GLBTs of faith, and there are many of those. </I><BR/><BR/>Yeah, like the clergy itself (not only queer catholics [and jews, muslims], but plenty of Ted Haggards) <BR/><BR/>Another of Reppert's patented Red Herrings. Associate the g-word with atheists (since a lot more believers than atheists, far more g-word believers than atheists), and then set up the little moralistic-defamation game. <BR/><BR/>A better topic: examine the support given to Prop 8--really unconstitutional, and even those secularists who don't care for same-sex marriages should realize that--by churches, such as the Mormons. Or, even better, examine the history of fraud, deceit and violence that makes up MormonCo. King Brigham Young: that was a sinner--and queer as a 3 dollar bill.Perezosohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01875109580933192779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-794730962785105112009-03-02T13:26:00.000-07:002009-03-02T13:26:00.000-07:00Great points, but having countless run-ins with a ...Great points, but having countless run-ins with a gay fundamentlaist, I know their response to be, "If you think homosexuality is a sin, then you hate the homosexual, period."<BR/><BR/>I have a good friend who's an atheist. He believes that I am wrong about my deepest passion, Jesus Christ. But he does NOT hate me, so it isn't a given unless someone adopts it (disagreement = hate) as a rule.<BR/><BR/>This whole gay reaction is a braintwister. What do you say to someone who declares that you hate them...above your own objections?Jim Jordanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12456957270007304493noreply@blogger.com