tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post5696210973127623149..comments2024-03-27T15:34:14.749-07:00Comments on dangerous idea: A question for naturalistsVictor Repperthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10962948073162156902noreply@blogger.comBlogger146125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-26927435044579315502013-09-12T03:01:20.599-07:002013-09-12T03:01:20.599-07:00"These were not intellectually or mentally de..."<i>These were not intellectually or mentally deficient people.</i>"<br /><br />No, they were heretics, and followers of heretical sects. <br /><br />Tell you what, Linton. If I need to defend the beliefs and actions of people with whom I totally disagree, simply because they choose to use the same name for their religion as I do, then you are likewise required to accept responsibility for all the actions of the Soviet and North Korean regimes. Deal?<br />B. Prokophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10548980245078214688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-9815816824030523232013-09-11T23:20:06.752-07:002013-09-11T23:20:06.752-07:00"The issue at hand here is not the efficacy o...<i>"The issue at hand here is not the efficacy of medicine - it is what the Christian world's attitude towards it is."</i><br /><br />Just a few of the most current of Christian examples:<br /><br /><i>"Death by Prayer: Christian Fundamentalist Parents Denied Their Children Medicine and Watched Them Die"</i> <a href="http://www.theobjectivestandard.com/blog/index.php/2013/07/death-by-prayer-christian-fundamentalist-parents-denied-their-children-medicine-and-watched-them-die/" rel="nofollow">READ HERE</a><br /><br /><i>"Philadelphia couple, who says they seek prayer not doctors, in court after second child dies; no charges yet"</i> <a href="http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/04/23/2nd-child-pa-couple-who-seek-prayer-not-doctors-dies-violates-probation-no/#ixzz2eegOUkgu" rel="nofollow">Read more</a><br /><br /> <i>"Cases of Childhood Deaths Due to Parental Religious Objection to Necessary Medical Care"</i> <a href="http://www.masskids.org/index.php?option=com_content&id=161&Itemid=165" rel="nofollow">READ HERE</a><br /><br /><i>"Faith Healing Scandal: Parents Prayed Instead of Seeking Medical Care as Child Slowly Dies"</i> <a href="http://www.christianpost.com/news/faith-healing-scandal-parents-prayed-instead-of-seeking-medical-care-as-child-slowly-died-56743/%22" rel="nofollow">READ HERE</a><br /><br /><i>"Parents who believe in miracles 'torturing' dying children, doctors warn"</i> <a href="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9473093/Parents-who-believe-in-miracles-torturing-dying-children-doctors-warn.html" rel="nofollow">From Britain READ HERE</a><br /><br /><i>"Christian parents who refused 'sinful' medicine and prayed as their toddler son died are spared prison."</i> <a href="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1353071/Christian-parents-shunned-medicine-prayer-son-died-spared-prison.html#ixzz2eejMow3U" rel="nofollow">RERAD MORE from Britain</a><br /><br />In his arrogance and ignorance Bob sees nothing untoward that spills out time after time after time. Religion serves no more useful purpose in guiding a good life than tossing a coin. And he is indifferent to those that have suffered unimaginable pain and agony because christianity guided the responses of the parents. These were not intellectually or mentally deficient people. They were ardent believers in Jesusgod. Period. The sooner the community realizes and understands this the better for all.Papalintonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03818630173726146048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-18814788344105065952013-09-11T16:18:04.373-07:002013-09-11T16:18:04.373-07:00Linton's last posting once again demonstrates ...Linton's last posting once again demonstrates his seemingly perpetual inability to understand what he is reading. My quotation was a dagger in the heart of his original contention that mistrust of medicine is somehow a necessary part of Christian belief. I show him that it is not. He proceeds (as usual) to miss the point completely.<br /><br />The issue at hand here is not the efficacy of medicine - it is what the Christian world's attitude towards it is. Mr. Wilson claimed that it was hostile. I prove it is not. His primary blow thus beaten back, Linton feints to the right with a total non-sequitur.<br /><br />In fact, his original comment on this subject was itself a non-sequitur. Since he couldn't stand just sitting by and watch me demolish Skep's ridiculous argument over the variant reading between different codexes, and not having anything coherent to say on the topic at hand, Linton plunges over the cliff with an irrelevant (and completely bogus) claim about Christians not trusting physicians.<br /><br />And as to the beliefs and/or practices of heretics and schismatics (and that's all that Calvinists, Methodists, Seventh Day Adventists, and Jehovah's Witnesses - the sects listed by Mr. Wilson - are), I am not responsible for what they say or do. Neither is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. Just as Linton claims no requirement to defend the actions of atheist communists, neither do I recognize any obligation to defend heretics. <i>Of course</i> their error will lead them at some point to catastrophe.B. Prokophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10548980245078214688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-53649784058193117642013-09-11T14:59:35.616-07:002013-09-11T14:59:35.616-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.B. Prokophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10548980245078214688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-56473857885392017912013-09-11T13:56:55.575-07:002013-09-11T13:56:55.575-07:00An unconvincing and puerile rebuttal to the facts,...An unconvincing and puerile rebuttal to the facts, the evidence to the contrary.<br /><br />God made medicines? Only in your wildest dreams and most misconstrued imagination. <br /><br />If indeed<i>"The Lord created medicines from the earth ..."</i> then he no doubt would have been held accountable for crimes against humanity in any decent society. As one example billions of people have died from dental caries while your god sat on his hands about the simple medicine that would have cured it. No, with utterly depraved indifference and criminal intent he sat on that information and apparently not only watched but allowed people to die in excruciating pain. <br /><br />Christians have two logical and reasoned choices: [1] God is a figment of the imagination because it is inconceivable that an omniscient, omnibenevolent, loving entity could possibly permit it, or [2] god is a monster.<br /><br />For some 2,000 years, co-incidentally as it happens over the exact same time period that the Jesusgod memeplex was fabricated and embellished, people had perished from dental diseases, because he saw to it that dental medicines were not available until the 20tC.<br /><br />So in context of evidence, proofs, facts, laid out in the historical record, it can only be concluded that Ecclesiasticus (Sirach) is a folktale. Anyone who believes this story mindful of the thousands of children in the US alone that have suffered and died painfully as a result of choosing the laying-on-of-hands biblical medical intervention must be spurned and the belief rejected outrightly.<br /><br />Papalintonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03818630173726146048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-15409298052826334252013-09-11T10:06:28.284-07:002013-09-11T10:06:28.284-07:00YawnYawnim-skepticalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08267710618719895303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-759624336082904602013-09-11T06:10:44.769-07:002013-09-11T06:10:44.769-07:00I realize that it is days since Mr. Wilson made hi...I realize that it is days since Mr. Wilson made his comment of September 07, 2013 7:43 PM, in which he attempted to drive a wedge between Christianity and medicine, but despite my slowness in response, his falsehoods demand an answer.<br /><br />I will (horrors) quote from Scripture:<br /><br />"<i>Honor the physician with the honor due him, according to your need of him ... for healing comes from the Most High ... The skill of the physician lifts up his head, and in the presence of great men he is admired. The Lord created medicines from the earth, and a sensible man will not despise them ... the pharmacist makes of them a compound ... and from him health is upon the face of the earth.<br /><br />My son, when you are sick do not be negligent, but pray to the Lord ... and give the physician his place ... let him not leave you, for there is need of him. There is a time when success lies in the hands of physicians ... May [a sick person] fall into the care of a physician.</i>"<br />(Taken from Ecclesiasticus (Sirach), chapter 38)<br /><br />Damn, but that's clear enough for me. Of course, the Protestants will have some reticence about quoting the above, since Sirach is one of the seven books of the Bible that they removed from the canon during the Reformation. But it's still affirmed as Holy Writ by the overwhelming number of Christians today, so I am on firm ground in citing it.B. Prokophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10548980245078214688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-85915731833331903942013-09-10T18:33:07.832-07:002013-09-10T18:33:07.832-07:00Yawn.Yawn.B. Prokophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10548980245078214688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-79916331838774991842013-09-10T18:08:21.556-07:002013-09-10T18:08:21.556-07:00Having now nothing left in the theological cupboar...Having now nothing left in the theological cupboard of fresh ideas on which to draw they resort to commenting among themselves. This little junta on cue degenerates into passing gratuitous comments between themselves attempting to impugn the characters of those that have rightfully rejected supernatural superstition as the basis of their worldview.<br /><br />Review: 'cranks', 'mentally deficient', 'chinese room'.<br /><br />It is the last ditch stand for those who cannot yet recognise and understand that religion is slowly but inexorably reaching its use-by date because it has been shown to be of little use as a realistic, sensible and predictive explanatory tool going forward. On the fact front that is a reality. On the social front religion is simply no match to the principles and ideals of secular humanism in governing one's personal and social behaviour. Secular humanism obviates the need for an exclusively tribal christian life, or closed-circuit muslim life, or an elephant-driven Hindus life, or the tens of thousands of other superstition-based worldviews which in many of their most important tenets and misplaced beliefs are inherently conflictual, contradictory and irreconcilable. History has repeatedly demonstrated that.Papalintonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03818630173726146048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-58151084005124759532013-09-10T18:05:51.363-07:002013-09-10T18:05:51.363-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Papalintonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03818630173726146048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-14688885106587965452013-09-10T17:51:44.581-07:002013-09-10T17:51:44.581-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Papalintonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03818630173726146048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-34976912318965979092013-09-10T05:52:52.954-07:002013-09-10T05:52:52.954-07:00Having had my share in battling cranks (most notor...Having had my share in battling cranks (most notoriously, the "anti-Cantorians") there is a starking resemblance between them and the look-at-me-im-skeptical's haunting this site: the same ignorance, the same obtuseness, the same enthralment to a shallow and pernicious ideology.grodrigueshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12366931909873380710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-18898579883012398122013-09-10T04:06:41.590-07:002013-09-10T04:06:41.590-07:00I know, Crude, I know.
Skep and Linton, each in ...I know, Crude, I know. <br /><br />Skep and Linton, each in his own way, are evidence for the truth of the title of the thread two above this one: <br /><br />"You can't argue with a zombie". B. Prokophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10548980245078214688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-88393815425671588182013-09-10T02:02:28.977-07:002013-09-10T02:02:28.977-07:00Bereft of any substantive underpinnings for each a...Bereft of any substantive underpinnings for each and every theistic and theo-philosophical argument that he has promulgated, one can sense, nay feel, the utter impotence and feebleness that percolates and saturates crude's noxious diatribe on little ol' me. <br /><br />Captured and bound fast in a web of his own making, unable to counter the historical fact that religions and gods are not heaven-sent, the aerated spume of deep-rooted inadequacy, habitual powerlessness and anger bobs to the surface and bursts all through his gratuitous comments on my person.<br /><br />And in the fashion of good old christian morality, an eye for an eye, it seems incumbent on me to respond in like.<br /><br />For all that he has written and as a gauge of the impact his contributions have made over time, Crude is the ubiquitous monkey fronting a typewriter perpetually charged with a clean sheet of paper, furiously typing, but the sheet remains fresh, unmarked, pristine.<br />Crude's cranial cavity is indeed a god-shaped vacuum in search of dark matter. <br /><br />Don't give up your day job, crude. Spiritual food does not sustain life in this natural and only world.Papalintonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03818630173726146048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-47311510364664077732013-09-09T21:40:53.251-07:002013-09-09T21:40:53.251-07:00Unless you are somehow severely mentally deficient...<i> Unless you are somehow severely mentally deficient,</i><br /><br />Bob, Linton's quite literally a chinese room. Remember the plagiarism? He does not understand what he's talking about most of the time. He copies and pastes and crows. Actually comprehending not only his opponents' words, but *the very sources he quotes*, is another matter entirely. He's not interested. Odds are, he is not even capable.<br /><br />Don't expect to make progress here. With others, it's possible, but between "This fellow with the Mystery Babylon webpage seems to have some good ideas here!" guy and "Copies and pastes responses from a webpage when asked to summarize an argument in his own words" guy, c'mon. Best to treat all this as a game. They clearly do - even if they lose at it. ;)Crudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04178390947423928444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-37832630511914099422013-09-09T21:15:26.186-07:002013-09-09T21:15:26.186-07:00"How many times do I have to tell you that fi...<i>"How many times do I have to tell you that finding reflections of Christianity in mythology and other religions (to include ancient paganism) is evidence in favor of its Truth? "</i><br /><br />Then it is a perverted and wrongheaded form of truth that you subscribe to. It is the kind of truth which ever-increasing numbers of the community identify as unsubstantiated, indefensible and simply not credible. Your kind of truth just does not stack up anymore an s is the reason why many are turning away from such head-shaking nonsense.<br /><br />No. On the contrary people are now understanding and appreciating that christianity is a veritable agglomeration of selected and appropriated cultural artifacts that grew out of the plethora of earlier and competing Middle Eastern belief systems in the 1stC CE. There is not a scintilla of disagreement among bona fide, [real] genuine scholars, those not having vested religious ideology to peddle, that christianity was forged out of the concepts, ideas and traditions that had been generated, worked upon and promulgated for thousands of years before Jesus was even an impish and deliciously cheeky sparkle in Mary's eye. Christianity owes its origins fully and totally to its antecedent forerunners. Of that there is no doubt.<br /><br /><i>" ..finding reflections of Christianity in mythology and other religions .. "</i> is the theological contrivance that has been so authoritatively and comprehensively debunked and dismissed as superstitious by the best of the scholars. This is the Christian fable constructed at a time in human development when superstition, sorcery, witchcraft, spells and incantation, magic and thaumaturgy were the conventional practices of everyday life. <br /><br />The fable is not an historical account. Otherwise the historical account would be written thus, " .. finding reflections of mythology and other religions in christianity .."<br /><br />It really is a matter of the commonsensical, reasoned and logical understanding of precedence. Mithraism, the Greek and Roman pantheons, the Egyptian religion, the Mesopotamians, and many others all manifest in the christian mytheme. That is unquestioned. These pagan religious belief systems were not the result of the devil setting them up as christians have been telling us for 2,000 years. They were the ingredients in the witches cauldron out of which christianity was supped. No more no less.<br /><br />And at bottom, Bob's <i>" ..finding reflections of Christianity in mythology and other religions .. "</i> is really a confession, an unqualified admission, albeit oblivious to the unintended consequences in making such a perverse, ignorant and chowderheaded comment. <br /><br />No. Christianity is a wholly-owned derivative of all the systems gone before it. Christianity is the continuing ignorance of natural causes reduced to a system. <br />Dr Murphy goes on:<br /><i>"However, along with blaming wicked demons (which is about as reliable as “The little green men did it!”) Justin also makes the claim that Plato and the Egyptians, whose doctrines prefigure Christian theology, copied from the Old Testament! This argument is sometimes continued even today, by those who have read neither Plato nor the Old Testament; nor the ancient philosophical texts of the ancient Greeks, Egyptians and Babylonians, in whose writings (which came several thousand years before even the Old Testament) can be found similar similarities. The truth is, there is an underlying mythological theme behind most of the world’s religious and philosophical works, and if any of it was hand written by God, then all of it was."</i><br /><br />I think one can reasonably understand and appreciate why it is I find christianity, and religion more broadly, risible when comments such as this example from Bob is tossed out there into the public forum and expected to be treated as a serious contribution. Have christians no dignity, no repute? Papalintonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03818630173726146048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-12420433732726972042013-09-09T14:55:55.049-07:002013-09-09T14:55:55.049-07:00Linton, Linton, Linton,
How many times do I have ...Linton, Linton, Linton,<br /><br />How many times do I have to tell you that finding reflections of Christianity in mythology and other religions (to include ancient paganism) is evidence <i>in favor</i> of its Truth? Unless you are somehow severely mentally deficient, you know very well that I have repeatedly stressed this. So why oh why do you continue to raise the issue as though you're making some sort of point? Because you're not - all you're doing is affirming what I have already stated (in fact, proclaimed) to be the case.<br /><br />So <b>please</b> continue your making arguments in favor of the Truth of Christianity. You're doing an excellent job in that regard so far!B. Prokophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10548980245078214688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-37095687588688694572013-09-09T14:45:13.048-07:002013-09-09T14:45:13.048-07:00"Read Clement of Rome, Justim Martyr, Iraneus...<i>"Read Clement of Rome, Justim Martyr, Iraneus of Lyon, etc. All of them unanimous in rejecting Gnosticism."</i><br /><br />;o) I wonder if these were all on the same side of the tagteam?<br /><br />Is this the same Justin Martyr in demonstrating that christianity is no different to Paganism when he argued:<br /><i>CHAP 21 <br />And when we say also that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter."</i> <br /><br />And is this also the same Justin Martyr who confirmed:<br /><br /><i>"Ch. 22<br />And if we assert that the Word of God was born of God in a peculiar manner, different from ordinary generation, let this, as said above, be no extraordinary thing to you, who say that Mercury is the angelic word of God. But if any one objects that He was crucified, in this also He is on a par with those reputed sons of Jupiter of yours, who suffered as we have now enumerated."</i><br /><br />Then how do the rest of the tagteam later rationalize all this? Wait for it. Wait for it.<br /><br />DIABOLICAL MIMICRY. Yes diabolical mimicry. Followed up by the mimicry of baptism and the mimicry of eucharist, all of them foretold, all of them fundamental practices of earlier pagan religions but apparently all of them false. Why? Because the devil it. Satan knew in advance, ahead of time, that Jesus was coming, and to trick everybody he set up all the pagan religions to thwart or test the faith of believers. <br />And this stands as evidence, as fact for why christianity looks every bit like all the other religions around at the time. This is the level of what constitutes fact and evidence for the foundation of christianity.<br /><br />Dr Derek Murphy <a href="http://www.holyblasphemy.net/diabolical-mimicry/" rel="nofollow">HERE</a> best explains it:<br /><i>"“Diabolical Mimicry” is fascinating because the argument is nearly as old as the beginning of the Christian movement and used widely by Christian apologists for nearly 4 centuries, which shows that not only were the similarities between Jesus and Pagan gods apparent to both Christians and Pagans, but that they were never refused by apologists as coincidental, nor a result of reverse-copying, as is claimed today. Diabolical Mimicry was the earliest Christian response to the Christ Myth theory, which has plagued Christians who believe in the historical Jesus for nearly 2,000 years. The argument claims that Satan used “plagiarism by anticipation,” or a pre-emptive strike against the gospel stories centuries before Jesus was born, by spreading rumors of other god-men who did what Jesus was going to do later."</i><br /><br />The wholly degraded idea of supernatural superstition is fundamentally characterized in this intellectually erudite observation on how the religious perceive of themselves:<br /><br /><i>”My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.”</i>― Isaac AsimovPapalintonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03818630173726146048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-70436618544683906052013-09-08T16:19:40.741-07:002013-09-08T16:19:40.741-07:00Thanks, Crude. I tried it out on the thread above ...Thanks, Crude. I tried it out on the thread above this one, and got it to work on the second go-round.B. Prokophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10548980245078214688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-4333339328153712582013-09-08T16:02:04.858-07:002013-09-08T16:02:04.858-07:00Bob,
Here's a simple guide.
Self-described s...Bob,<br /><br /><a href="http://www.echoecho.com/htmllinks01.htm" rel="nofollow">Here's a simple guide.</a><br /><br />Self-described skeptical people are rarely skeptical in general. They are selectively skeptical - but every cultist is.Crudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04178390947423928444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-32420732312644918802013-09-08T15:24:53.643-07:002013-09-08T15:24:53.643-07:00Crude,
If you enjoyed Skep's link for a good ...Crude,<br /><br />If you enjoyed Skep's link for a good laugh, you'll really like this one:<br /><br />http://www.ncregister.com/blog/mark-shea/scratch-an-atheist-find-a-fundamentalist1<br /><br />(One of these days, you guys are gonna have to show me how to make links.)B. Prokophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10548980245078214688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-65011714329666490262013-09-08T15:00:22.419-07:002013-09-08T15:00:22.419-07:00Bob,
Oh, and as to your link, Skep (which I assum...Bob,<br /><br /><i>Oh, and as to your link, Skep (which I assume you intended as somehow being "shocking")</i><br /><br />Oh, it is. Did you not browse the site?<br /><br />On it you can learn all about <a href="http://www.biblelight.net/index-mystery-babylon.html" rel="nofollow">Mystery Babylon</a> conspiracy theories, and how <a href="http://www.biblelight.net/index_4.htm" rel="nofollow">Catholicism is really pagan sun worship</a>.<br /><br />Basically, Captain Skeptical over there just linked to the geocities-throwback equivalent of Jack Chick in his evidence citation. ;)Crudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04178390947423928444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-13192873871239370762013-09-08T14:31:07.548-07:002013-09-08T14:31:07.548-07:00Oh, and as to your link, Skep (which I assume you ...Oh, and as to your link, Skep (which I assume you intended as somehow being "shocking")... you do realize that my Bible of choice is the Latin Vulgate, right?B. Prokophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10548980245078214688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-2559513392676389592013-09-08T12:28:04.161-07:002013-09-08T12:28:04.161-07:00"picked by Constantine"
Hah! You've..."<i>picked by Constantine</i>"<br /><br />Hah! You've been reading way too much Dan Brown. The struggle against the gnostic heretics goes wa-a-a-ay back to the Apostolic Age itself. You see references to it in the three letters of John. And the early Church Fathers were in the thick of things against this distortion of the Gospel. Go back and re-read the quotes I supplied above (Sep 6, 6:33 AM)from St. Ignatius of Antioch. These were daggers in the heart of Gnosticism. We have similar statements from Polycarp of Smyrna and others from the late 1st/early 2nd Centuries. In other words, <b>more than 200 years before Constantine</b>. So please don't give me that Da Vinci Code crapola about some sort of Roman Empire conspiracy to "clean up" Christian doctrine. It just doesn't fly in the face of ACTUAL FACTS. (something I, it seems erroneously, thought you were interested in).<br /><br />All that the Ecumenical Councils (Nicaea, Ephesus, et.al.) did was to confirm what the Church had already believed and had been widely preaching long before they ever were convened. Their purpose was not to "suppress" heretical ideas, but to define them as such, and reaffirm orthodoxy.<br /><br />And how in the world can you possibly imagine that the gnostic pseudo-gospels were somehow "probably more in line with the actual teachings of Jesus" when <i>every last apostolic and post-apostolic witness</i> condemns them? Read Clement of Rome, Justim Martyr, Iraneus of Lyon, etc. All of them unanimous in rejecting Gnosticism. Your statement doesn't even make sense, and contradicts the mountain of evidence (you do like evidence, right?) that we have from those times. How is it more probable that every last follower of Jesus was wrong about what He taught, but that some 2nd generation heretics (who, by the way) had never met with or spoken to Jesus) somehow got it right?<br /><br />Think, Man! You claim that that's what you're good at! Live up to your moniker, and show some healthy skepticism toward this nonsense you've been peddling here.B. Prokophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10548980245078214688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-9938860737693712242013-09-08T11:47:16.875-07:002013-09-08T11:47:16.875-07:00"It shows an admirable scrupulousness in gett..."It shows an admirable scrupulousness in getting it right, and not papering over the rough edges. You have inadvertently built up a strong case for the veracity of the text that we now read!"<br /><br />It shows how the story changed as time went on. It shows that the church continued it efforts to "get it right" over many centuries of revisions to the text and meaning of the bible books.<br /><br />And that's only the ones that were picked by Constantine to be the basis of his state religion. Many other texts were excluded or suppressed by the church. Most notable among them were the gnostic gospels, whose message, while probably more in line with the actual teachings of Jesus, were antithetical to Constantine's state religion. The church made numerous campaigns over the years to destroy "heretical" books that it viewed as a threat. In the belief that knowledge is bad for people outside the institution, it didn't even want Christians to have copies of the bible that they could read for themselves.<br /><br />http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/banned.htm<br /><br />The text that we now read in the bible was chosen for its conformity to the political needs of the church/state. It was embellished, revised, and edited as the doctrines and dogmas of the church were formulated. There is ample evidence of this. If you care to look at it.im-skepticalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08267710618719895303noreply@blogger.com