tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post5379184259315679071..comments2024-03-27T15:34:14.749-07:00Comments on dangerous idea: Relativism, God, and Bill ClintonVictor Repperthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10962948073162156902noreply@blogger.comBlogger82125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-9139137768482050772021-11-18T12:51:24.270-07:002021-11-18T12:51:24.270-07:00شركة كيفية التصميم للمقاولات
شركة تسليك مجاري بمك...<a href="https://al-tasmim.com/" rel="nofollow">شركة كيفية التصميم للمقاولات</a><br /><br /><a href="https://al-tasmim.com/%d8%b4%d8%b1%d9%83%d8%a9-%d8%aa%d8%b3%d9%84%d9%8a%d9%83-%d9%85%d8%ac%d8%a7%d8%b1%d9%89-%d8%a8%d9%85%d9%83%d8%a9//" rel="nofollow">شركة تسليك مجاري بمكة</a><br /><br /><a href="https://al-tasmim.com/ar/%D8%B4%D8%B1%D9%83%D8%A7%D8%AA-%D8%B9%D8%B2%D9%84-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A3%D8%B3%D8%B7%D8%AD-%D8%A8%D9%85%D9%83%D9%87-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%85%D9%83%D8%B1%D9%85%D9%87//" rel="nofollow">شركات عزل الأسطح بمكة</a><br /><br /><a href="https://al-tasmim.com/ar/%D9%83%D8%B4%D9%81-%D8%AA%D8%B3%D8%B1%D8%A8%D8%A7%D8%AA-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AE%D8%B2%D8%A7%D9%86%D8%A7%D8%AA-%D9%81%D9%89-%D9%85%D9%83%D8%A9//" rel="nofollow">شركة كشف تسربات الخزانات بمكة</a><br /><br /><a href="https://al-tasmim.com/services/%d8%b4%d8%b1%d9%83%d8%a9-%d8%aa%d8%b1%d9%85%d9%8a%d9%85-%d9%85%d9%86%d8%a7%d8%b2%d9%84-%d8%aa%d8%b1%d9%85%d9%8a%d9%85-%d9%81%d9%84%d9%84//" rel="nofollow">شركة ترميم منازل ترميم فلل</a><br /><br /><a href="https://al-tasmim.com/%d8%b4%d8%b1%d9%83%d8%a9-%d9%84%d8%ad%d8%a7%d9%85-%d8%ae%d8%b2%d8%a7%d9%86%d8%a7%d8%aa-%d9%81%d9%8a%d8%a8%d8%b1-%d8%ac%d9%84%d8%a7%d8%b3-%d8%a8%d9%85%d9%83%d8%a9//" rel="nofollow">شركة لحام خزانات فيبر جلاس بمكة</a><br /><br /><a href="https://al-tasmim.com/ar/%D8%A3%D9%81%D8%B6%D9%84-%D8%B4%D8%B1%D9%83%D8%A9-%D8%AA%D9%85%D8%AF%D9%8A%D8%AF-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%BA%D8%A7%D8%B2-%D9%81%D9%89-%D9%85%D9%83%D8%A9//" rel="nofollow">شركة تمديد غاز مركزي في مكة</a><br /><br /><a href="https://al-tasmim.com/ar/%D8%B4%D8%B1%D9%83%D8%A9-%D8%A7%D8%B5%D9%84%D8%A7%D8%AD-%D8%AA%D8%B3%D8%B1%D8%A8%D8%A7%D8%AA-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%85%D9%8A%D8%A7%D9%87-%D8%A8%D9%85%D9%83%D8%A9//" rel="nofollow">شركة اصلاح تسربات المياه بمكة</a><br /><br /><a href="https://al-tasmim.com/ar/%D8%B4%D8%B1%D9%83%D8%A9-%D9%83%D8%B4%D9%81-%D8%AA%D8%B3%D8%B1%D8%A8%D8%A7%D8%AA-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%85%D9%8A%D8%A7%D9%87-%D8%A8%D9%85%D9%83%D8%A9//" rel="nofollow">شركة كشف تسربات المياه بمكة</a><br />مؤسسة الاوائل للمقاولات العامةhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02364438819467369999noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-82782989922364190402021-06-23T18:00:54.897-07:002021-06-23T18:00:54.897-07:00Mark:
Victor - your argument assumes that if someo...Mark:<br />Victor - your argument assumes that if someone is a relativist then they cannot accept that another being is more authoritative than they are.<br />(Because there is no one more authoritive about moral knowledge than yourself. To think otherwise is too say someone is more objective than you.)<br /><br /> This does not follow. At least, not if you have reasonably sophisticated understanding of relativism/subjectivism. Most people would accept that in the end the decision as to whether one piece of art is better than another is subjective. Nevertheless an experienced art critic is more authorative than a child because he/she knows more about the situation and has developed different ways of looking at art which the child has not yet developed.<br />(Why should I accept the views of someone else, when his views are no better than mine. Are you saying I need to bend to a someone else's morals and views ?)<br /><br /> Similarly a theist may accept that God has more factual knowledge and more ways of looking at ethical issues than the theist and therefore it is very likely that given time God would bring that theist round to his opinion. Nevertheless it is a matter of opinion and there is no final objective proof that God is right. <br />(But God is right to himself, not to me unless he uses force. God's opinion is irrelevant to me because it is not superior to mine in ANY SENSE.)De Tinkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04097193202840512489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-68925372995186468892017-05-23T12:20:17.434-07:002017-05-23T12:20:17.434-07:00شركة تنظيف منازل بخميس مشيط
شركة تنظيف سجاد بابها
...<br /><a href="https://nile-company.org/%d8%b4%d8%b1%d9%83%d8%a9-%d8%aa%d9%86%d8%b8%d9%8a%d9%81-%d9%85%d9%86%d8%a7%d8%b2%d9%84-%d8%a8%d8%ae%d9%85%d9%8a%d8%b3-%d9%85%d8%b4%d9%8a%d8%b7/" rel="nofollow">شركة تنظيف منازل بخميس مشيط</a><br /><a href="https://nile-company.org/%D8%B4%D8%B1%D9%83%D8%A9-%D8%AA%D9%86%D8%B8%D9%8A%D9%81-%D8%B3%D8%AC%D8%A7%D8%AF-%D8%A8%D8%A7%D8%A8%D9%87%D8%A7/" rel="nofollow">شركة تنظيف سجاد بابها</a><br /><a href="https://nile-company.org/%d8%b4%d8%b1%d9%83%d8%a9-%d8%aa%d9%86%d8%b8%d9%8a%d9%81-%d9%85%d9%86%d8%a7%d8%b2%d9%84-%d8%a8%d8%ae%d9%85%d9%8a%d8%b3-%d9%85%d8%b4%d9%8a%d8%b7/" rel="nofollow">شركة تنظيف فلل بخميس مشيط</a><br /><a href="https://nile-company.org/%D8%B4%D8%B1%D9%83%D8%A9-%D8%AA%D9%86%D8%B8%D9%8A%D9%81-%D9%85%D9%88%D9%83%D9%8A%D8%AA-%D8%A8%D8%A7%D8%A8%D9%87%D8%A7/" rel="nofollow">شركة تنظيف موكيت بابها</a><br /><a href="https://nile-company.org/%d8%b4%d8%b1%d9%83%d8%a9-%d8%aa%d9%86%d8%b8%d9%8a%d9%81-%d9%85%d9%86%d8%a7%d8%b2%d9%84-%d8%a8%d8%ae%d9%85%d9%8a%d8%b3-%d9%85%d8%b4%d9%8a%d8%b7/" rel="nofollow">شركة تنظيف شقق بخميس مشيط</a><br />قمم التميزhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01046793588885356347noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-27515613156794849052013-04-25T14:23:09.513-07:002013-04-25T14:23:09.513-07:00B. Prokop,
I'm not saying that an atheist dua...B. Prokop,<br /><br />I'm not saying that an atheist dualism is, when thought through to its logical conclusion, <i>plausible</i> - I'm just saying it's not strictly impossible. Here's how I look at it: Say someone (like 99% of the population) starts out life as a dualist. He later becomes convinced, say, by the argument from evil, that God does not exist. My point is that this person does not need to abandon dualism in order to stay consistent in his beliefs. An atheist who is not a materialist can still hold out for future non-materialistic explanation of how mind/consciousness got here (although admittedly it's hard to imagine what such an explanation would even look like).<br /><br />To me, the atheistic dualist is in a similar position to an atheist who believes that the universe exists (to me, dualism and the fact that the universe exists are more or less equally obvious). We may not have an explanation of how the universe or mind/consciousness got here, nor does it seem like any non-theistic explanation is even possible at this point, but there is nothing preventing an atheist from holding out for one, or even just accepting that we don't know and may never know. If I were convinced that God most likely did not exist I would probably remain a dualist and just accept ignorance on where mind/consciousness came from, personally. ingx24https://www.blogger.com/profile/03336709510575904262noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-66030234050204140322013-04-25T14:01:09.425-07:002013-04-25T14:01:09.425-07:00ingx24,
I probably wouldn't have phrased it i...ingx24,<br /><br />I probably wouldn't have phrased it in the same way as Ilion, but I believe I get what he is telling you. I.e., where is this "mind" that you posit in the absence of any minds? Presumably there was some point in time in our universe prior to the emergence of a thinking being. Are you saying that materialism was indeed true at that time, but no longer? If not, just what made up this mind component of reality then? And if so, how do you explain the emergence of mind <i>ex nihilo</i> midway through the history of the world?<br /><br />All you're doing with your insistence on the possibility of atheist dualism is creating a host of brand new unsolvable questions, whilst answering none.B. Prokophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10548980245078214688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-83849906904010741122013-04-25T13:35:11.355-07:002013-04-25T13:35:11.355-07:00Ingx24, what does it *mean* to posit some sort of ...<i>Ingx24, what does it *mean* to posit some sort of a dualism-sans-God? What does it *mean* to posit that 'mind' is fundamental to the nature of reality -- while denying there is an actual mind who is "the ground of all being"? How does the logic of such a dualism work out, in actual fact?</i><br /><br />Simple: I say that there are actually existing human minds without necessarily believing that there's a larger "central" one that created the universe. How is this a logical contradiction?<br /><br /><i>In similar wise, to speak of "mind this" or "mind that" -- in the absence of any actually existing mind -- is to speak of literally nothing. Dualism-sans-God reduces to mere materialism.</i><br /><br />I don't understand what you're trying to say here. It sounds like you're saying that God is the only actually existing mind, and that by denying the existence of God I'm denying the existence of minds by definition. But I don't want to unfairly misrepresent you, so I won't comment on this.<br /><br /><i>So, in the end, any dualism-sans-God is simply an emotionally appealing incoherency that serves to obfuscate, rather than solve, the problem of explaining actually existing minds in a material world.</i><br /><br />I do think that God is a good explanation for how minds become associated with specific bodies in such an intimate way, given substance dualism. But I hesitate to bring God in as an explanation for anything - haven't we incorrectly used God as an explanation before for phenomena that in the end were found to be naturally explainable? There are other explanations I've found convincing regarding how minds and bodies get into contact under the assumption of substance dualism, such as the idea that the brain acts as a "receiver" for the mind (similar to how radios act as receivers for radio waves, although obviously this is just an analogy).<br /><br />I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Dualism does not strictly entail theism. The two are logically independent and should, for the most part, be treated as such.ingx24https://www.blogger.com/profile/03336709510575904262noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-11076990403752318182013-04-25T09:44:26.041-07:002013-04-25T09:44:26.041-07:00ingx24: And I don't buy your whole "athei...<b><a href="http://dangerousidea.blogspot.com/2013/04/relativism-god-and-bill-clinton.html?showComment=1366573392952#c6069318827311873620" rel="nofollow">ingx24:</a></b> <i>And I don't buy your whole "atheism entails materialism" thing. It seems perfectly logically possible that there could be a world without a God where dualism is nevertheless true.</i><br /><br />Ingx24, what does it *mean* to posit some sort of a dualism-sans-God? What does it *mean* to posit that 'mind' is fundamental to the nature of reality -- while denying there is an <i>actual</i> mind who is "the ground of all being"? How does the logic of such a dualism work out, in actual fact? <br /><br />People speak of "life this" and "life that". In such usage, 'life' tends to mean "all biological organisms" and/or "the biological processes of organisms". But, if there were no biological organisms -- nor ever had been any anywhere in time and space -- then to speak of "life this" or "life that" would be to speak of <i>nothing</i>, literally nothing. 'Life' used in this sense is a <i>concept</i>, much like a Platonic Form.<br /><br />In similar wise, to speak of "mind this" or "mind that" -- in the absence of any <i>actually existing mind</i> -- is to speak of <i>literally nothing</i>. Dualism-sans-God reduces to mere materialism.<br /><br />So, in the end, any dualism-sans-God is simply an emotionally appealing incoherency that serves to obfuscate, rather than solve, the problem of explaining actually existing minds in a material world.Ilíonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15339406092961816142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-27991752479139556992013-04-22T16:17:36.284-07:002013-04-22T16:17:36.284-07:00What Clinton would really say to God:
"Wow. ...What Clinton would really say to God:<br /><br />"Wow. You sound just like Morgan Freeman!"jdhueyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14548783175350394626noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-89016441072813816012013-04-22T08:07:20.380-07:002013-04-22T08:07:20.380-07:00Bob,
The notion that to understand imperfection t...Bob,<br /><br />The notion that to understand imperfection there must exist a perfect standard by which to measure is simply not true. We all have concepts of the ideal or the perfect, even though those things don't exist in our world. In physics, all we need is a mathematical equation to express the concept of the ideal. We understand that nothing in reality exactly matches that ideal. But nobody expects to have some shining example of it to serve as their standard, either. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-91891134310824344512013-04-22T07:49:41.907-07:002013-04-22T07:49:41.907-07:00"atheists can have legitimate and rational re..."<i>atheists can have legitimate and rational reasons for their disbelief</i>"<br /><br />If so, I have yet to meet a single one, either in person or over the internet, who does. I can only go by the data I receive. Or is this one of those "imaginary concepts" you were touting a few postings back, that doesn't actually exist except for the case of argument? "<i>I can imagine a straight horn on a unicorn or a bent horn on a unicorn. That doesn't mean that unicorn horns exist.</i>"B. Prokophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10548980245078214688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-67103870809994014622013-04-22T06:55:04.013-07:002013-04-22T06:55:04.013-07:00Hal,
I half-composed about 18 different replies t...Hal,<br /><br />I half-composed about 18 different replies to your last postings, but finally realized I was merely repeating myself. So, for an answer, go back and re-read my earlier postings. It's what I would have written (again).<br /><br />And be sure and re-read the one from April 19th, 3:06 PM. I think your latest contributions are a classic example of what I was saying there.<br /><br />To all: Unless someone has something genuinely new to post to this discussion, I am through here. I've said my piece, and more than once. I believe nothing I wrote is unclear.B. Prokophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10548980245078214688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-26007489762143322232013-04-22T05:02:42.935-07:002013-04-22T05:02:42.935-07:00a mere human "The terms "bent" and ...<b>a mere human</b> "<i>The terms "bent" and "straight" are taken from C.S. Lewis's Out of the Silent Planet, and have nothing whatsoever to do with actual shapes. They are metaphors for perfection and falling-short-of-perfection.</i>"<br /><br />As was <i>clear</i> in the initial post of that sub-thread. <br /><br />Good grief! These guys are intellectually dishonest -- you know, as you are with respect to leftist politics -- how is it that you expected anything other than a "misunderstanding" leading down a pointless rabbit trail?Ilíonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15339406092961816142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-19124448003987906912013-04-22T04:49:37.445-07:002013-04-22T04:49:37.445-07:00a mere human "Are you back on your meds today...<b>a mere human</b> "<i>Are you back on your meds today, Ilion? You seem almost... human!</i>"<br /><br />I trust that you'd never <i>unintentionally</i> insult me.<br /><br />On a side note, I've never been on any "meds". Though, your familiarity with the terminology, and the concept, leade me to believe that you have been, and probably ought to be.Ilíonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15339406092961816142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-18731088383576382432013-04-22T03:58:28.008-07:002013-04-22T03:58:28.008-07:00Hal,
The terms "bent" and "straigh...Hal,<br /><br />The terms "bent" and "straight" are taken from C.S. Lewis's <i>Out of the Silent Planet</i>, and have nothing whatsoever to do with actual shapes. They are metaphors for perfection and falling-short-of-perfection.<br /><br />Good Grief! I guess I was wrong in thinking that people who posted to a website dedicated to Lewis would have actually read the guy!B. Prokophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10548980245078214688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-54310369482252695362013-04-22T03:57:20.799-07:002013-04-22T03:57:20.799-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.B. Prokophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10548980245078214688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-74393400949380547192013-04-21T22:49:48.706-07:002013-04-21T22:49:48.706-07:00Bob
Hal responds to you, "I fail to see what ...Bob<br />Hal responds to you, <i>"I fail to see what the universe itself being bent (whatever the heck that really means) has to do with it."</i><br /><br />My thoughts as well.<br />Additionally, I am led to understand that the universe is indeed fundamentally a flat plane, which is counter-intuitive at the best of times.Papalintonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03818630173726146048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-29510505868274792442013-04-21T16:20:53.223-07:002013-04-21T16:20:53.223-07:00Ilion,
I guess you could say that I'm methodo...Ilion,<br /><br />I guess you could say that I'm <i>methodologically</i> trying to avoid the conclusion that God exists, just to see how good the case for it is. I'm guessing that's what you meant, and I just misunderstood you.ingx24https://www.blogger.com/profile/03336709510575904262noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-90487885928985257912013-04-21T15:36:32.632-07:002013-04-21T15:36:32.632-07:00Are you back on your meds today, Ilion? You seem a...Are you back on your meds today, Ilion? You seem almost... human!B. Prokophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10548980245078214688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-34935063179875835812013-04-21T15:22:12.281-07:002013-04-21T15:22:12.281-07:00I wonder, as 'im-skeptical' becomes more a...I wonder, as 'im-skeptical' becomes more and more indistinguishable from Papalintion, will *anyone* ever acknowledge that I wasn't being a "meanie", but rather that I was/am treating him exactly as his <i>behavior</i> calls for treating him?Ilíonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15339406092961816142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-81221826109889126732013-04-21T15:15:35.306-07:002013-04-21T15:15:35.306-07:00ingx24"You seem to have an unwarranted sense ...<b>ingx24</b>"<i>You seem to have an unwarranted sense of rational superiority.</i>"<br /><br />No I don't. But, even if I did, what of it? And *who* issues the warrant? Can you not grasp that *you* have just declared yourself to hold a rational superiority over me?<br /><br /><b>ingx24</b>"<i>Reminds me a lot of Papalinton, honestly.</i>"<br /><br />Oh, I'm cushed!Ilíonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15339406092961816142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-2415270421776074312013-04-21T15:11:22.888-07:002013-04-21T15:11:22.888-07:00ingx24"No, I'm not. [Yes you are] I'm...<b>ingx24</b>"<i>No, I'm not. [Yes you are] I'm hesitant to accept any argument that it is logically possible to reject, regardless of the conclusion.</i>"<br /><br />Or, as I said, "<i>Sure you are, but you're going about it in a morally and rationally responsible manner.</i>" You haven't yet come to the conclusion that this particular conclusion isn't logically possibly false; so, you're <i>testing</i> it, as you should. None of us want you to admit that God is because we've overwhelmed you, we want you to have overwhelmed yourself, so to speak.<br /><br />And, in any event, admitting that God is is such a minor thing. The important thing is to <i>love</i> God.<br /><br />Shoot! You even <i>quoted</i> what I said. How is it that you didn't *read* it?Ilíonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15339406092961816142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-25753030802738426842013-04-21T15:02:18.308-07:002013-04-21T15:02:18.308-07:00Oh, cool! A gnat and a mosquito are arguing over w...Oh, cool! A gnat and a mosquito are arguing over which one is going to take me down.Ilíonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15339406092961816142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-66715320642194727942013-04-21T14:49:39.206-07:002013-04-21T14:49:39.206-07:00... and right on cue, proving my point.... and right on cue, proving my point.B. Prokophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10548980245078214688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-27222448162003412682013-04-21T14:29:11.142-07:002013-04-21T14:29:11.142-07:00"You can eschew reason and logic altogether a..."You can eschew reason and logic altogether are embrace atheism."<br /><br />Yeah, because it's sooo reasonable to chalk everything up to a supernatural being that can't be seen or heard, that doesn't answer your prayers, that thinks the agonizing deaths of billions and billions of animals and people is proof of god: "The fact that we see imperfections and evil in the world necessitates a perfection against which to measure/judge what we observe." Sure, anything will do as proof of your god when you're sooo reasonable.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-33019113939990963332013-04-21T14:22:19.839-07:002013-04-21T14:22:19.839-07:00Hey, im-skeptical,
Don't you go all a jumpin&...Hey, im-skeptical,<br /><br />Don't you go all a jumpin' on Ilion - that's <i><b>my</b></i> job!B. Prokophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10548980245078214688noreply@blogger.com