tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post4995024501902861150..comments2024-03-27T15:34:14.749-07:00Comments on dangerous idea: Lennox replies to HawkingVictor Repperthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10962948073162156902noreply@blogger.comBlogger82125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-40381787165123134602011-08-24T18:42:05.896-07:002011-08-24T18:42:05.896-07:00Bob
"Sorry, but what hypocrisy! When I see yo...Bob<br />"Sorry, but what hypocrisy! When I see you and your fellow thinkers embracing your one-ness with Catholics, Fundamentalist Protestants, Daoists, Mormons, and Islamists, then I'll take your criticism of Orthodox Christians being critical of heretics seriously. Until then, you're just embarassing yourself!"<br /><br />How so? You as a Catholic make the distinction from other faiths and heretical variants of christian faith ever so clearly and forcefully. I see all these distinctions as curious and incredulous, and I certainly don't embrace the oneness on theistic grounds. That is far too shallow a determinant. And wide-ranging reading of Religion will illustrate it as on same plane with other mythologies and parallel to and synonymous with the New Age stuff of today. They do, because they come from the same well-spring of superstition. I target a much more fundamental stratum of reasoning, much deeper than the deepest deepities of religion. I am foremost a humanist. At this level of philosophical thought all the extraneous stuff is shed. We get down to basics. There are far more commonalities between us at this level of ideation than the contrived differences of religious imposition. And as a humanist, I am of the glass-half full kind, one that seeks to further the understanding and appreciation of secularism as the fundamental modus operandi that provides humans the best strategy for facing the challenges into the future. <br /><br />Secularism is the primal state of relationship that transcends all cultural, social and theological baggage that define us as diverse and multicultural. But it is only at the secular level that all the destructive human impulses can be properly mitigated. We know it's there and we cannot sweep it under the carpet. We must deal with it. Religion has been shown to be a dismal failure in this respect because many of its defining elements are characteristically, destructive , lethal, negative, hostile, vicious, and downright unfriendly. [don't you just love words?] At the secular level, the determinants for increased well-being are well understood; freedom, safety of family, security, the rule of law, food, shelter, employment. At the secular level, reasoned and reasonable communities can review their particular faiths, root out and throw away those aspects that do not contribute to well-being, a cleaning out of the skeletons in the cupboard [pretty much as Jefferson did with the NT].<br /><br />It would be wonderful knowing that a cultural catholic can embrace a cultural muslim and both shake hands with an atheist, and all shake hands with a Jehovah's Witness. I think John Spong has a tremendous insight into how religion can move forward to responding to increasing societal well-being. We are now at the crossroad, either we take the challenge of a paradigm shift, or we allow internecine and grubby theological squabbles continue to beset humanity.Papalintonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03818630173726146048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-43380748677603750412011-08-24T18:25:30.473-07:002011-08-24T18:25:30.473-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Papalintonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03818630173726146048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-59676378418963002972011-08-24T16:44:16.076-07:002011-08-24T16:44:16.076-07:00Papalinton,
Sorry, but what hypocrisy! When I see...Papalinton,<br /><br />Sorry, but what hypocrisy! When I see you and your fellow thinkers embracing your one-ness with Catholics, Fundamentalist Protestants, Daoists, Mormons, and Islamists, then I'll take your criticism of Orthodox Christians being critical of heretics seriously. Until then, you're just embarassing yourself!B. Prokophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10548980245078214688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-75875719889568568802011-08-24T15:45:59.528-07:002011-08-24T15:45:59.528-07:00Religion: exclusivist, segregative, 'them and...Religion: exclusivist, segregative, 'them and us', divergent, clubbish, disparate, contrasting, contrastive; conflicting, incompatible, contradictory.<br /><br />Just some words that popped into my mind following reading the last number of comments. It is such an irony that theists speak of 'togetherness' by trumpeting their 'distinctiveness', their 'differences'.<br /><br />So much for Brenda's ecumenism.Papalintonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03818630173726146048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-53892580294614212052011-08-24T13:08:53.390-07:002011-08-24T13:08:53.390-07:00"What was I thinking?"
You weren't...."What was I thinking?"<br /><br />You weren't.B. Prokophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10548980245078214688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-52176429509378575572011-08-24T12:49:49.497-07:002011-08-24T12:49:49.497-07:00Walter: Calvinism is not orthodoxy. It's a her...<i>Walter: Calvinism is not orthodoxy. It's a heresy.</i><br /><br />What was I thinking?Walternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-33951004817234748092011-08-24T12:47:23.380-07:002011-08-24T12:47:23.380-07:00some fiction by cs lewis:
Emeth the Calormene: &...some fiction by cs lewis:<br /><br /><i><br />Emeth the Calormene: "So I went over much grass and many flowers and among all kinds of wholesome and delectable trees till lo! in a narrow place between two rocks there came to meet me a great Lion. The speed of him was like the ostrich, and his size was an elephant's; his hair was like pure gold and the brightness of his eyes, like gold that is liquid in the furnace. He was more terrible than the Flaming Mountain of Lagour, and in beauty he surpassed all that is in the world, even as the rose in bloom surpasses the dust of the desert. Then I fell at his feet and thought, Surely this is the hour of death, for the Lion (who is worthy of all honour) will know that I have served Tash all my days and not him. Nevertheless, it is better to see the Lion and die than to be Tisroc of the world and live and not to have seen him. But the Glorious One bent down his golden head and touched my forehead with his tongue and said, Son, thou art welcome. But I said, Alas, Lord, I am no son of Thine but the servant of Tash. He answered, Child, all the service thou has done to Tash, I account as service done to me. Then by reason of my great desire for wisdom and understanding, I overcame my fear and questioned the Glorious One and said, Lord, is it then true, as the Ape said, that thou and Tash are one? The Lion growled so that the earth shook (but his wrath was not against me) and said, It is false. Not because he and I are one, but because we are opposites. I take to me the services which thou hast done to him, for I and he are of such different kinds that no service which is vile can be done to me, and none which is not vile can be done to him. Therefore if a man swear by Tash and keep his oath for the oath's sake, it is by me that he has truly sworn, though he know it not, and it is I who reward him. And if any man do a cruelty in my name, then though he says the name Aslan, it is Tash whom he serves and by Tash his deed is accepted."<br /></i><br /><br />C. S. Lewis, <em>The Last Battle</em><br /><br />(the Calormenes have an Turkish-like culture in the story)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-53532243042304153192011-08-24T11:11:04.250-07:002011-08-24T11:11:04.250-07:00Maybe I should have picked a different name for my...Maybe I should have picked a different name for my exemplar. I can already hear the atheists on this site humming the little ditty from "Seinfeld", "Believe it or not, George isn't at home". <br /><br />Walter: Calvinism is not orthodoxy. It's a heresy.B. Prokophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10548980245078214688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-21616384827864892132011-08-24T11:00:07.478-07:002011-08-24T11:00:07.478-07:00Bottom Line: Their George is not the same as my Ge...<i>Bottom Line: Their George is not the same as my George.</i><br /><br />There can be pretty big divergences between "Georges" even amongst orthodox believers. For instance, the God of Calvinism seems like a very different "George" than the God of Love believed in by Universalist Christians. Looks like every sect has its own "George."Walterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08597511645534603563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-71524333979106802222011-08-24T08:46:50.093-07:002011-08-24T08:46:50.093-07:00Al,
I will respectfully (and I do mean that) both...Al,<br /><br />I will respectfully (and I do mean that) both agree and disagree. That's the problem with the slipperiness of words, and of the English language in particular (one of the reasons I'm currently taking evening classes in Latin!). <br /><br />Yes,there is only one God. And the New Atheists who (with an infantile smirk on their faces) say that they are atheists when it comes to Zeus and Odin, and that they are only going "one god further" than the theist, don't know what they are talking about. <br /><br />But at the same time (and we ignore this half of the equation at our peril), there is an unbridgable gulf between Yahweh and Baal. Might I recommend a really excellent book "God is not One" by Stephen Prothero? It is a truly wonderful examination of the bedrock fundamental differences between Mankind's principle religions. Well worth the read! It made me simultaneously treasure my own faith more, while appreciating the undeniable wisdom to be found in others.<br /><br />Bottom Line: Their George is not the same as my George.B. Prokophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10548980245078214688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-41835207518495113142011-08-24T08:21:42.202-07:002011-08-24T08:21:42.202-07:00Bob Prokop said:
No, Brenda. Christians and Musli...Bob Prokop said:<br /><br /><i>No, Brenda. Christians and Muslims most definitely do not worship the same God.</i><br /><br />Erm, ahem, here is what the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches:<br /><br />841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."Al Moritzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17422697770654047870noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-32647955610840353732011-08-24T07:32:05.152-07:002011-08-24T07:32:05.152-07:00Abraham had two sons: Isaac and Ishmael.Abraham had two sons: Isaac and Ishmael.B. Prokophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10548980245078214688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-82215923138326908602011-08-24T07:17:11.930-07:002011-08-24T07:17:11.930-07:00B Prokop said:
"Would you still insist that &...B Prokop said:<br /><i>"Would you still insist that "After all, we both know the same George"?"</i><br /><br />Obviously George got married, had kids, put on a little weight and got a new job. We can know that we both know the same person because both of our Georges had the same father, Abraham, and Abraham had only one son.brendahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14544680532155804010noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-25240840335082423142011-08-23T21:00:10.036-07:002011-08-23T21:00:10.036-07:00No, Brenda. Christians and Muslims most definitely...No, Brenda. Christians and Muslims most definitely do not worship the same God.<br /><br />Try this thought experiment out for size. Let's say that you and I both know a guy named George. Now the George I know is 45 years old, married with 2 children, works in a bakery, weighs 195 pounds, and has blond hair. But the George you know is 22 years old, single, no children, works as a fireman, weighs 160 pounds and has black hair. Would you still insist that "After all, we both know the same George"? Of course not!<br /><br />Well, the same things applies to Christians and Muslims. We both worship "God", but when you get down to details, you quickly find that the God worshiped by Christians has about the same amount in common with the one worshiped by Muslims as do the two persons named George described above. They are not the same God!<br />(And the same thing applies to Mormons.)B. Prokophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10548980245078214688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-12985695521837751242011-08-23T16:06:24.816-07:002011-08-23T16:06:24.816-07:00B. Prokop said:
"Were that true, then we woul...B. Prokop said:<br /><i>"Were that true, then we would have to lump in the world's one billion plus Muslims into the fold."</i><br /><br />Well yeah, they are. So are Jews. That's why the big three are called Abrahamic faiths. Jews, Christians and Muslims all worship the same god. Muslims also celebrate Christmas, didn't you know that? They all have pretty much the same beliefs. Christians have that extra bit about Christ and Islam has an extra bit about Muhammad but they're all more or less, give or take a bit, the same basic belief structure.<br /><br /><i>"And THAT is not just "my" litmus test - it's reality."</i><br /><br />There is no reality behind politics or religion. They both reflect human needs, wants and desires. It's all just opinion, there is no fact of the matter on which they rest.<br /><br />Some people think they should be able to keep all the money they earn, they are called conservatives. Some people think a Jew 2000 years ago was a pretty important guy. Others say "Well, he was important but this other guy, an Arab, he was more important." <br /><br />It's all opinion, not fact, and since it is opinion there can be no objective means of categorizing who is of which opinion <b>other than</b> that they in fact have that opinion.brendahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14544680532155804010noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-22515482148927928572011-08-23T16:04:01.990-07:002011-08-23T16:04:01.990-07:00Bob
"And yes, Brenda and "anonymous"...Bob<br />"And yes, Brenda and "anonymous" are both wrong, wrong, wrong, when they say that the only test of being a Christian is whether you yourself consider yourself to be one."<br /><br />I'm with you on this point, otherwise:<br /><br />"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. ...Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. " <br /><br />- Adolf Hitler, speech on April 12, 1922<br /><br />It seems he self-identified as a christian and more particularly:<br /><br />"I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so." [and he did. He was never excommunicated] <br /><br />- Adolf Hitler, to General Gerhard Engel, 1941<br /><br />And self-identification under Brenda's plan would pose problems.<br /><br />However, on the matter of Mormons, there is no question Walter's definition has significantly more merit for defining 'christian'. Remember, the Nicene Creed is one that was formulated and established by a committee, a purely human artifice to try to quell the squabbles between rival christian groups, and its subsequent enforcement was predicated on 'might equals right'. And christians, by their very own admission say, if jesus was not resurrected what is the point of the christian message? <br /><br />Indeed from their very own website:<br />http://ldspatriot.wordpress.com/mormonism/what-mormons-believe-about-jesus-christ/<br /><br />"Mormons also believe in the literal resurrection of Christ. Mormon teachings follow what is recorded in the Bible that after being crucified Christ’s body lay in the tomb, and on the third day his body and spirit were reunited. Mormons believe that Christ still has a body of flesh and bones, just as he did after his resurrection. The resurrection is a free gift to everyone. All will all be resurrected and have their body reunited with their spirit."<br /><br />If it looks like a duck ................<br /><br /><br />End of story.Papalintonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03818630173726146048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-65773930938644569522011-08-23T15:53:52.073-07:002011-08-23T15:53:52.073-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Papalintonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03818630173726146048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-49502637931633888202011-08-23T15:24:01.706-07:002011-08-23T15:24:01.706-07:00Walter
" I would say anyone who believes in a...Walter<br />" I would say anyone who believes in a supernatural resurrection of Jesus is a Christian, regardless of whether they believe in the full deity of Jesus or not."<br /><br />A point well made and a workable definition.Papalintonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03818630173726146048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-42353994414531505212011-08-23T14:12:35.544-07:002011-08-23T14:12:35.544-07:00Mike, I'm simply giving my own litmus test for...Mike, I'm simply giving my own litmus test for those whom I consider to be Christians. I don't care what your christological or soteriological views are, if you believe that Jesus was raised from the dead by Yahweh, then you are a Christian--at least in my book. And if you are an uber-liberal Christian who believes that the resurrection was just a spiritual event, then you need to man up and admit that you are really just an agnostic monotheist who likes Christian stories.<br /><br />Christianity is all about the resurrection.Walterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08597511645534603563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-5556229137743320632011-08-23T14:02:18.999-07:002011-08-23T14:02:18.999-07:00Mike,
I agree with you that the true "disqua...Mike,<br /><br />I agree with you that the true "disqualifiers" have nothing to do with belief. But I chose the creed, solely because we are discussing this on a website that is ostensibly about philosophy, so it seemed the more relevant criterion.<br /><br />And yes, Brenda and "anonymous" are both wrong, wrong, wrong, when they say that the only test of being a Christian is whether you yourself consider yourself to be one. Were that true, then we would have to lump in the world's one billion plus Muslims into the fold. Consider this: not long ago, a major Islamic figure in Syria was asked by a western interviewer, "How many Christians live in Syria?", and the cleric answered, "We're all Christians in Syria". And he meant it! He genuinely felt that, since Muslims revered Jesus as a Holy Prophet (Born of a virgin, no less! Look it up - it's in the Koran.), that they all qualified as Christians. I watched this exchange on the BBC, and the Syrian cleric was clearly mystified and somewhat insulted that the interviewer wouldn't agree with him on this point.<br /><br />So no, just because Mormons wish to be counted as Christians (for purely political reasons by the way), doesn't make it so.<br /><br />And THAT is not just "my" litmus test - it's reality.B. Prokophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10548980245078214688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-2789100084757462912011-08-23T13:46:51.107-07:002011-08-23T13:46:51.107-07:00Walter,
The size of your tent is generously large....Walter,<br />The size of your tent is generously large. Again, I suggest a reading of I John. The writer lists several qualifiers and disqualifiers, not all about belief.Mike Darushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06669617343235073078noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-78561774342577919752011-08-23T11:55:19.052-07:002011-08-23T11:55:19.052-07:00So what is the sine qua non of true Christianity? ...So what is the sine qua non of true Christianity? Most here seem to think that it is affirming the Nicene creed. I would say anyone who believes in a supernatural resurrection of Jesus is a Christian, regardless of whether they believe in the full deity of Jesus or not.Walterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08597511645534603563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-89576922039674567232011-08-23T10:56:02.778-07:002011-08-23T10:56:02.778-07:00This is amazing. I John is not difficult to read....This is amazing. I John is not difficult to read. Do you really think someone is a Christian just because they say so?Mike Darushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06669617343235073078noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-91191798109636620492011-08-23T10:01:05.430-07:002011-08-23T10:01:05.430-07:00"Of course you can't! That's why it&#..."Of course you can't! That's why it's MY litmus test, and not yours!"<br /><br />Non-sequitor. Simply because it is your litmus test it does not follow that there can't be a good reason for using it. <br /><br />And i see no good reason for using it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-68762504426549097632011-08-23T07:30:37.161-07:002011-08-23T07:30:37.161-07:00"can find no good reason for accepting that t..."can find no good reason for accepting that test."<br /><br />Of course you can't! That's why it's MY litmus test, and not yours!<br /><br />I normally am not in the habit of responding to "anonymous" (If you don't have the courage of your convictions to identify yourself, then please don't bother saying anything.), but you seem exceptionally dense. You have still completely missed the entire point of these postings. Go back and read the one from 11:39 AM, August 22nd, with its reference to the deep end of perceptions.B. Prokophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10548980245078214688noreply@blogger.com