tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post390093266601934234..comments2024-03-28T12:34:14.649-07:00Comments on dangerous idea: Bradley Monton's BlogVictor Repperthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10962948073162156902noreply@blogger.comBlogger43125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-48504027938796798782011-07-22T13:31:11.169-07:002011-07-22T13:31:11.169-07:00Hi Papa,
The problem is that Judge Jones used th...Hi Papa, <br /><br />The problem is that Judge Jones used the following reasoning: <br /><br />The other alternative designers in an ID scenario, besides God (time travelers, extra-terrestrials) are implausible. Therefore ID is religious. <br /><br />Whether or not the other alternatives are implausible, they are still logically possible. Therefore ID does not necessarily imply that God is the designer. Therefore ID is not necessarily religious.Bilbohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06231440026059820600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-68708416293390853352011-07-21T20:43:43.683-07:002011-07-21T20:43:43.683-07:00@ Bilbo
Extract from Page 1 of the ruling the pre...@ Bilbo<br /><br />Extract from Page 1 of the ruling the presiding judge, John E Jones, in the case, Kitzmiller vs Dover School Education Board:<br /><br />"To preserve the separation of church and state mandated by the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, and Art. I, § 3 of the Pennsylvania Constitution, we will enter an order permanently enjoining Defendants from maintaining the ID Policy in any school within the Dover Area School District, from requiring teachers to denigrate or disparage the scientific theory of evolution, and from requiring teachers to refer to a religious, alternative theory known as ID."<br /><br />Please note, Bilbo, " .... and from requiring teachers to refer to a religious, alternative theory known as ID."<br /><br />End of story. Ta-Dah!Papalintonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03818630173726146048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-72217127139499745222011-07-21T16:56:38.331-07:002011-07-21T16:56:38.331-07:00Papa,
Let me know when you concede that ID is no...Papa, <br /><br />Let me know when you concede that ID is not a religious concept, so we can move on to the question of whether there is any evidence for it.Bilbohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06231440026059820600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-4085306285890021432011-07-20T16:19:24.925-07:002011-07-20T16:19:24.925-07:00Papa,
Your original claim was that ID is a relig...Papa, <br /><br />Your original claim was that ID is a religious concept. Before we turn the question of whether there is any evidence for ID, are you willing to relinquish your original claim? If not, then you need to provide an argument for it.Bilbohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06231440026059820600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-66023590022078304182011-07-20T01:33:35.989-07:002011-07-20T01:33:35.989-07:00Bilbo
Please do not exhibit asinine behaviour. I&#...Bilbo<br />Please do not exhibit asinine behaviour. I'll ask the question again:<br /><br />"And what evidence might that be Bilbo? And point me to the research papers that have built a case on this evidence over the past 50 years."<br /><br />And please don't go for the very low hanging fruit as was your last comment. Try and endeavour to rise above the squalor.Papalintonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03818630173726146048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-27175358920443968832011-07-19T13:12:23.531-07:002011-07-19T13:12:23.531-07:00Papa: "And what evidence might that be Bilbo...Papa: "<i>And what evidence might that be Bilbo? And point me to the research papers that have built a case on this evidence over the past 50 years. Apart from the Discovery Institute or the Templeton Foundation, or Liberty University, that is.</i>"<br /><br />Papa, your assertion was that ID was a religious concept. If an atheist can believe that ID is true, then obviously it isn't a religious concept. You lose this one.Bilbohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06231440026059820600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-36550029936170912152011-07-18T16:58:01.191-07:002011-07-18T16:58:01.191-07:00@ Bilbo
"I quoted Fred Hoyle, who was an athe...@ Bilbo<br />"I quoted Fred Hoyle, who was an atheist, who believed that there was evidence that the original cells were intelligently designed ..."<br /><br />And what evidence might that be Bilbo? And point me to the research papers that have built a case on this evidence over the past 50 years. Apart from the Discovery Institute or the Templeton Foundation, or Liberty University, that is.Papalintonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03818630173726146048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-83566126217826455242011-07-18T13:19:51.318-07:002011-07-18T13:19:51.318-07:00Papa: "ID is a religious concept not a scienc...Papa: "<i>ID is a religious concept not a science concept.</i>"<br /><br />I quoted Fred Hoyle, who was an atheist, who believed that there was evidence that the original cells were intelligently designed. I think this demonstrates that ID is not a religious concept. I fail to see how you have refuted this, Papa.Bilbohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06231440026059820600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-45905119942244548352011-07-18T12:46:13.564-07:002011-07-18T12:46:13.564-07:00You do know this is nonsense, right? Not a real ar...You do know this is nonsense, right? Not a real argument?<br /><br />I mean ... it's all part of your act? The routine to wind Theists up? Right?<br /><br />Because if it is, and I'm reading you right, you deserve some sort of award! Brilliant stuff!Mr Vealehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12931446615905211560noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-62540697038491240912011-07-18T12:42:43.151-07:002011-07-18T12:42:43.151-07:00Luther created his own form of Christianity which ...Luther created his own form of Christianity which had nothing to do with Catholicism?<br /><br />LOL! That's priceless! Comic Gold!<br /><br />Honestly, Papa, we should put your posts to music, and run them as a musical comedy! They'd run for years on the West End!!!!Mr Vealehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12931446615905211560noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-73196037052759028542011-07-17T17:42:11.709-07:002011-07-17T17:42:11.709-07:00Hi Bilbo
Absolutely nothing there, including all t...Hi Bilbo<br />Absolutely nothing there, including all the commentary that rejects the notion of ID as a purely theological concept. <br /><br />Much of what Hoyle and Wickramasinghe say about ID cannot be contrived as support for the christian ID mythos.<br /><br />I also add the following quotes found among the attached comments: <br /><br />"Hoyle and Wickramasinghe deny the creator is the traditional supernatural God. They envision a creator within the total cosmos. They contend that a flaw in logic kept generations of scientists from seeing the truth that intelligence is the authentic source of the information in the biological world." (TMoLO, p. 197)<br /><br />"The whole of the special creation theory was thought to be wrong and there was a general revulsion among scientists against it. In effect, because the details were seen to be incorrect, the fundamental idea that life was created by an intelligence was also rejected." (EFS, p.130)<br /><br />I also not that an excerpt from Judge Overton's decision in McLean v. Arkansas, re ID, simply discards any of their evidence in support of christian claims of ID as a genuine scientific proposition, as spurious. As he well should have.Papalintonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03818630173726146048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-6611517471428237662011-07-17T13:38:33.886-07:002011-07-17T13:38:33.886-07:00Hi Papa,
You might try reading this:
Fred Hoyl...Hi Papa, <br /><br />You might try reading this: <br /><br /><a href="http://telicthoughts.com/sir-fred-hoyle-and-the-origins-of-id/" rel="nofollow">Fred Hoyle and the Origins of ID</a>Bilbohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06231440026059820600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-1078346048257082742011-07-17T12:33:07.835-07:002011-07-17T12:33:07.835-07:00And Graham, I might add that Intelligent Design [I...And Graham, I might add that Intelligent Design [ID] did not cleave off from science. ID is a wholly-owned and solely theological derivative of christianity. The courts have proved that beyond a shadow of doubt; re Kitzmiller vs Dover School Board.<br /><br />ID is a religious concept not a science concept.<br />I would suggest that it is possible in the not too distant future that theism and theology will be re-classified and posited as a sub-set under the broader classification of Mythology within the Dewey System.Papalintonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03818630173726146048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-61061267781789472122011-07-17T12:22:42.841-07:002011-07-17T12:22:42.841-07:00Hi Graham
You say, "Lee Smolin loves String T...Hi Graham<br />You say, "Lee Smolin loves String Theory. Every physicist working on the foundations of Quantum Mechanics believes that David Bohm was wrong."<br /><br />True, but David Bohm didn't go into a hissy fit and go off a create another and different branch of science of Quantum Mechanics, as did Martin Luther when he had a hissy fit with the catholics and sulked off and created his own christian religion that had nothing to do with catholics. Equally as did Jim Jones of the Jonestown mob in Guyana.<br /><br />Lee Smolin didn't go off and create the String Theory Science Group as a separate and independent science discipline and said 'bugger-off' to the rest of the science crowd, as did Joseph Smith when he contrived the Book of Mormons and the Church of the Latterday Saints of Jesus Christ, and told the catholics and the protestants to 'bugger-off'.<br /><br />No Graham, science is science is science. Always has been. Always will be.<br /><br />Religion on the other hand is pathologically schismatic, as history so clearly demonstrates.Papalintonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03818630173726146048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-25177495428312629602011-07-17T07:42:37.392-07:002011-07-17T07:42:37.392-07:00Do you really expect us to to take this pap seriou...Do you really expect us to to take this pap seriously, Pap? <br />All good fun, but you never really make any arguments. <br /><br />To clarify - "the cosmological argument has been around for a long time" is not an argument. <br /><br />GrahamMr Vealehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12931446615905211560noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-23544657831833214602011-07-17T07:39:48.545-07:002011-07-17T07:39:48.545-07:00Nice to see that he has sorted the demarcation pro...Nice to see that he has sorted the demarcation problem out though. He knows the necessary and sufficent conditions that must be met to make a theory scientific. Cool. Is economics in or out then? Business and management studies? <br /><br /><br />And scientists never disagree. Cladists never call their opponents names. Gould and Dawkins loved each other like brothers. Leowontin's critiques of adaptationism have been universally accepted. Every evolutionary theorist agrees on the fundamental unit of selection. Psychologists all believe that memes are worth studying. <br /><br /><br />Lee Smolin loves String Theory. Every physicist working on the foundations of Quantum Mechanics believes that David Bohm was wrong, and the Copenhagen Interpretation was right. No one believes that SETI is a waste of money, and everyone rejects the Rare Earth hypothesis. Every scientist is agreed that there is nothing remarkable about human beings - there is no large qualitative gap between humans and chimps. <br /><br /> Every psychologist is agreed that Freud is bunk, and that cognitive science is the way forward. There is no controversy over evolutionary psychology. <br /><br />No qualified scientist doubts the reality of man made global warming, and no qualified physician thinks that homeopathy has something going for it. <br /><br />And no qualified scientist with a research degree in the relevant area believes in intelligent design, or in the Fine Tuning Argument for God's existence. <br /><br />Modern Science. Just one big monolith agreed on everything, really. <br /><br />GrahamMr Vealehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12931446615905211560noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-71860989983962403152011-07-16T17:07:26.820-07:002011-07-16T17:07:26.820-07:00>No wonder there are 30,000-plus variants on th...>No wonder there are 30,000-plus variants on the christianities and ten of thousands of diverse religions in the world. But only one science.<br /><br />I think Paps is actually plundering old Catholic contra Protestant polemics here? <br /><br />Except the claim there are 30,000 denominations is incorrect. Yeh we Catholics where the first to put out that charge. But we where wrong.<br /><br />To quote Ben Douglas ". This tally comes from the 2001 World Christian Encyclopedia, and it includes all denominations and paradenominations which self-identify as Christian, including Catholics, Orthodox, Protestants, Old Catholics, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, Gnostics, Bogomils, etc. And even so, the number is too high. The World Christian Encyclopedia artificially inflates the number of Catholic "denominations" by counting Eastern Churches in communion with Rome as separate denominations. It likewise inflates the number of Eastern Orthodox "denominations" by counting Churches in communion with each other as distinct.<br /><br />This reference lists 8,973 denominations under the heading "Protestant," and 22,146 more under the heading "Independent." Some, but not all, of the "independent" denominations may justly be described as Protestant. Still, these numbers may be inflated similarly to the numbers for Catholics and Orthodox. Suffice it to say that there are thousands of Protestant denominations."END QUOTE<br /><br />Weird Paps picks up the stuff we throw away.Son of Ya'Kovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05645132954231868592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-11740672998418377202011-07-15T11:11:45.463-07:002011-07-15T11:11:45.463-07:00Yeah, you have Aquinas on the run there Papa...Yeah, you have Aquinas on the run there Papa...Mr Vealehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12931446615905211560noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-62390623861774068922011-07-14T01:32:45.795-07:002011-07-14T01:32:45.795-07:00Oh Dear Ben.
From Feser,: ".... on the subj...Oh Dear Ben.<br /><br />From Feser,: ".... on the subject of the cosmological argument, Coyne still misses the point, which is that the pat “counterarguments” hacks like Dawkins give are superficial and directed at straw men. "<br /><br />It is Feser who believes in god faeries at the bottom of his garden. A better example of "strawman" one could not construct. <br /><br />The existence of a god. What a jejune level of ideation. And Feser still has to hark back to a person who, in the context of his time, surrounded completely with a 'live' panoply of devils, and sprites, and fallen angels, and satans and god[s], and ghosts and malevolent spirits, contrived the Five Ways to account for this parade of entities of superstition that inhabited an 'otherworld'. Ben, that was almost 1,000 years ago. Hasn't Feser got anything a little more modern as a reference? Or is Aquinas the pinnacle of christian scholarship? If that is the case, what the hell has christian scholarship been doing for the past 1,000 years. And no good trotting out Lewis or Plantinga or Ratzy, because they all trot out a re-interpreted same 'ole, same 'ole variations of Aquinas.<br /><br />No wonder there are 30,000-plus variants on the christianities and ten of thousands of diverse religions in the world. But only one science.Papalintonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03818630173726146048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-452162812990354292011-07-13T18:44:37.316-07:002011-07-13T18:44:37.316-07:00Way ahead of you Paps.
http://edwardfeser.blogs...Way ahead of you Paps. <br /><br />http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2011/07/tom-and-jerry.htmlSon of Ya'Kovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05645132954231868592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-13737728475371576992011-07-13T18:43:35.684-07:002011-07-13T18:43:35.684-07:00*explaining*explainingAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-37961842830804330782011-07-13T18:42:51.464-07:002011-07-13T18:42:51.464-07:00Papalinton, if you charge a theist with "wish...Papalinton, if you charge a theist with "wishful thinking" without explain why, you leave yourself open to the same charge.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-4029431841927813302011-07-13T18:09:49.610-07:002011-07-13T18:09:49.610-07:00Mr Veale
Dilbert is brilliant.Mr Veale<br />Dilbert is brilliant.Papalintonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03818630173726146048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-54688832391109343872011-07-13T14:56:09.590-07:002011-07-13T14:56:09.590-07:00http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/1997-12-23/http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/1997-12-23/Mr Vealehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12931446615905211560noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-7104181311466014932011-07-13T14:55:16.641-07:002011-07-13T14:55:16.641-07:00Even looks a little like Coyne, if you ignore the ...Even looks a little like Coyne, if you ignore the 'tache<br /><br />http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/1997-12-22/Mr Vealehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12931446615905211560noreply@blogger.com