tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post2699622812173346154..comments2024-03-28T12:34:14.649-07:00Comments on dangerous idea: The fundamental divide Victor Repperthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10962948073162156902noreply@blogger.comBlogger40125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-63627000929598162892015-11-05T07:41:06.088-07:002015-11-05T07:41:06.088-07:00All we need to see about Loftus really is his most...All we need to see about Loftus really is his most recent debate with David Wood. That had to be one of the worst attempts to argue against the resurrection that I'd ever seen if not the worst.Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16175830373964472006noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-10164462072920780002015-08-14T23:49:30.300-07:002015-08-14T23:49:30.300-07:00The fundamental divide is between those who share ...The fundamental divide is between those who share our temperament and those who don't.David Duffyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01222419875209542723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-40416237851423498182015-08-14T15:29:37.564-07:002015-08-14T15:29:37.564-07:00You keep proving my points over and over,
Your p...<i>You keep proving my points over and over, </i><br /><br />Your point is 'Crude, you're mean to Cultists of Gnu'. Surprise: I don't give a shit. Few do.<br /><br /><i>Which is too bad, because any secular argument you have against homosexuality </i><br /><br />I don't need one for the claims made here. I just have to point out how ridiculous your own claims are. 'It's inhumane for God to command someone not to engage in recreational coprophilia! Only a monster would do that! #lovewins!' Why, it's shocking to think I don't place a priority on extended "dialogue" with your ilk.<br /><br />But here's what takes the cake.<br /><br /><i>When you presume that anyone who has an argument against Christianity is an enemy and is unsavable</i><br /><br />Good thing I made no such claim. I said, specifically, that on average self-described 'atheists' tend to be anti-theist and anti-Christian, usually for reasons that have more to do with politics and 'feels' than reason. It's not disbelief in God or Christianity that makes them enemies, it's the active desire to attack, belittle, and eradicate Christians and Christianity.<br /><br />Your response is to imagine that those of said ilk, and you yourself, are some precious commodity who I'd best not offend. Better yet, on the grounds that you have some goofy interpretation of the God and religion that you rail against in any other context. You can behave like a complete asshat, but oh, Christians - indeed, all theists - better treat you and other Cultists of Gnu with kid gloves?<br /><br />I save civility for the civil, and the fate of your soul is largely your own concern, not mine. But don't let any of this stop you from bitching some more.Crudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04178390947423928444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-70380591723746508992015-08-14T09:49:18.543-07:002015-08-14T09:49:18.543-07:00Doesn't everyone just love concern-trolls?Doesn't everyone just love concern-trolls?Ilíonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15339406092961816142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-59871064655336819262015-08-14T08:41:24.499-07:002015-08-14T08:41:24.499-07:00When you presume that anyone who has an argument a...When you presume that anyone who has an argument against Christianity is an enemy and is unsavable (which you can't know unless you're omniscient) and therefore worthy of contempt, you drive people away from the kingdom of God. And if there is any God, one day you will have to give an account for that.bbigejhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04411619648899536246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-25584135527992211142015-08-14T08:27:34.671-07:002015-08-14T08:27:34.671-07:00Which is too bad, because any secular argument you...Which is too bad, because any secular argument you have against homosexuality is sure to be good for a laugh and I'd like to hear it. And I'd like to correct you on your widely misplaced judgements on my intellectual and spiritual journey (because someone who is reading Bauckham's Jesus and the Eyewitnesses right now surely must hate God). But Crude, you aren't worth the trouble.bbigejhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04411619648899536246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-78198014081287946042015-08-14T08:17:43.347-07:002015-08-14T08:17:43.347-07:00You keep proving my points over and over, blissful...You keep proving my points over and over, blissfully unaware you are doing so. You are a cancer upon every blog interested in fostering civil dialogue and should be universally blacklisted until you can demonstrate that you have something worthwhile to say without blatantly insulting people. bbigejhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04411619648899536246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-74283813884063513732015-08-14T05:47:27.767-07:002015-08-14T05:47:27.767-07:00bbigej: "So you're going to have to look ...<b>bbigej:</b> "<i>So you're going to have to look for other grounds for your unpleasant disposition.</i>"<br /><br />LOL Translation: "<i>The crudé-minded fellow has a *toxic* personality.</i>"Ilíonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15339406092961816142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-22119202209943804542015-08-14T05:44:40.845-07:002015-08-14T05:44:40.845-07:00Dan Gillson:"... more towards 'spirituali...<b>Dan Gillson:</b>"<i>... more towards 'spirituality', whatever the fuck that is.</i>"<br /><br />Solipsistic navel-gazing <i>self</i>-worship: "I am the god I've been waiting for."Ilíonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15339406092961816142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-69240448629069859962015-08-13T22:06:47.370-07:002015-08-13T22:06:47.370-07:00However we choose to define Christs primary and se...<i>However we choose to define Christs primary and secondary purposes, they are qualitatively different than yours,</i><br /><br />You already whiffed once on opining about Christ's purposes - and there, only in this interaction. Judging by your blog and past comments, you're yet another Cult of Gnu member who has that 'Aggressively if fumblingly tries to dish it out, but sobs and kicks and screams when taking it' thing going on.<br /><br />I'd beg your pardon for offending you at being the kind of theist who, say, laughs at how ridiculous it is when you do things like write poetically about how inhumane it is to regard consensual anal sex and ass-to-mouth as even possibly immoral - but I don't need your pardon. No one does.<br /><br />Now, feel free to whine more about my tone - the Cultist of Gnu is ever a thin-skinned beast - but at least be aware of how inane it looks for you to limp-wristedly whine about how I'm not <i>properly</i>, in your uninformed view, following the teachings of a God who you deny, attack and revile in every other situation. Or hell, don't be aware. It doesn't matter all that much.Crudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04178390947423928444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-375073474405028672015-08-13T17:33:46.232-07:002015-08-13T17:33:46.232-07:00However we choose to define Christs primary and se...However we choose to define Christs primary and secondary purposes, they are qualitatively different than yours, which is scoring cheap points and attempting to assuage your intellectual inferiority complex. That's the point. So you're going to have to look for other grounds for your unpleasant disposition.bbigejhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04411619648899536246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-77998307547247376022015-08-13T15:51:27.284-07:002015-08-13T15:51:27.284-07:00Dan,
Fair enough. But keep in mind that the evide...Dan,<br /><br />Fair enough. But keep in mind that the evidence I'm calling on here isn't limited to the internet. American Atheists and the FRFF existed well before the modern internet did, as did many of the other organizations. Crudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04178390947423928444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-12091190338204073342015-08-13T15:47:47.566-07:002015-08-13T15:47:47.566-07:00Crude,
I wasn't talking specifically about yo...Crude,<br /><br />I wasn't talking specifically about you, even though I linked to one of your comments. Your comment was a convenient as an example of the sort of phenomenon I was talking about. I'm inclined to agree that 'relaxed' atheists don't exist in meaningful numbers*, but I hedge because I don't think the internet, in particular the places people go to argue about religion, is a good place to conduct such a survey.<br /><br />*Probably in part because atheists don't exist in meaningful numbers, and in part because relaxed people gravitate more towards 'spirituality', whatever the fuck that is.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12030785676230758243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-57185656924267628062015-08-13T15:28:14.074-07:002015-08-13T15:28:14.074-07:00And here comes Loftus to help prove my points.
On...And here comes Loftus to help prove my points.<br /><br /><i>One divide is between a mere computer science B.A. graduate like Lowder, who has some depth in the area of the philosophy of religion,</i><br /><br />Buddy, your academic credentials - and your accomplishments in general - are nothing to brag about. Lowder at the very least actually engages arguments, remains civil, and doesn't absolutely melt down when people point out problems with his arguments. He also puts up far more of an intellectual fight than you, because let's face it - you don't have much going for you. You shatter under criticism, and you're regarded as something of a farce even among atheists. "Loftus? <i>Ugh</i>." is the typical atheist reaction to your name being invoked.<br /><br /><i>and it definitely isn’t the time for him to proverbially shoot people like me in the back, who are on the front lines in this war of ideas, especially when I’m having so much success.</i><br /><br />Alas, you're a poor man's PZ Myers, who was always a poor man's Richard Dawkins, who himself was little more than a reheated, more amateur Bertrand Russell, and who has already fallen from popular grace. Really, anyone who looks into your history inevitably goes, 'Hmmm. He's dishonest and engaged in things like launching a fake blog to anonymously attack his critics only to get caught. His arguments are unoriginal, and are shredded by anyone who reviews him. And he's also a transparent but amateur self-promoter. What a clownshow. Pass.'<br /><br />You barely even register in these debates intellectually - your status is now what it was years ago, and what it will be 10 years hence. 'Peripheral atheist looking upon other atheists with envy, trying desperately to be relevant, and most of all to make a buck off the rubes.'<br /><br />It may burn your ears to hear it, but it's true. And the worst part is? You know it's true.<br /><br />Get a job at Denny's, Loftus. If you want to earn money, that's your best bet - try to become a manager. I'd recommend another field for you, but c'mon. Your resume isn't suited for much else.Crudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04178390947423928444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-14694998618510004352015-08-13T15:17:55.367-07:002015-08-13T15:17:55.367-07:00unkleE,
Crude, the only people Jesus was angry wi...unkleE,<br /><br /><i>Crude, the only people Jesus was angry with were the religious leaders. </i><br /><br />First off, this isn't about anger. It's about recognizing enemies, hostile people, and being honest, even dispassionately. Seriously, the fact that you decided to try and get into a dust-up with me over the fact that I called out Loftus as a mediocrity and a hack - which is just a more specific kind of mediocrity - just speaks volumes here.<br /><br />Second, you're simply wrong. Christ took a whip to moneychangers, he laid into real and prospective disciples on a regular basis, he maintained that the unconverted areas he preached to and performed miracles in were destined for what I in a scholarly mood would call 'Superhell', and he called out quite a number of otherwise ordinary people - including non-followers, and anyone who would listen - as sinners and wicked. The idea of Jesus as the nice guy who would praise Richard Dawkins but harshly condemn average-Christian (especially if they're, gasp, conservative) is baseless. Christ, while preaching love, is not a smiley face and a hug. Nor did Christ only give commands to Christians, with everyone else basically being off the hook (or, indeed, incapable of true immorality.) <br /><br />Really, to hear you put it, 'Love your enemies' must be an interpolation, because that would imply that Christ recognizes Christians have /enemies/, which simply will not do.<br /><br />Let me go further as to why I not only reject your views, but I regard them as harmful.<br /><br />We live in an age where Christ is a punchline, as are religious people. They're mocked at every corner, and it's not just humorous - it's hatred, and it comes from just about all corners, from the media to academia to even politics. A whole bunch of Christians get their heads chopped off by some people in the Middle East, and the first thing out of some people's mouths is 'Well, the Crusades'.<br /><br />While you're busy trying to guilt trip any Christian who so much as recognizes that a nasty little wannabe Dawkins doesn't have much talent, you make it clear that Christians who feel miserable about their treatment, who feel alone and scared and betrayed, don't mean a thing to you. They're hardly on your radar. Your advice to them is 'Oh just offer it up to God'. No sympathy. Not even a recognition that, yes, they really are being abused, rhetorically and otherwise. It would get in the way of your needling them, along with passive-aggressive, holier-than-thou condemnations.<br /><br />To me, that means nothing, because I know the game. But I feel tremendous sympathy for anyone who you have - let me speak clearly - screwed up or made miserable by sanctimoniously and publicly betraying them when they dared to take note about, or worse yet, complain about how the world treats them. <br /><br />To put it more kindly, you talk about the personal, spiritual, and emotional needs of atheists. Maybe you should start thinking about the personal, spiritual, and emotional needs of Christians too, beyond trying to think about the most sanctimonious way to tell them you don't give a shit about them, because you're too busy guarding the feelings of would-be atheist bullies.Crudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04178390947423928444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-10530219613036837312015-08-13T15:17:38.592-07:002015-08-13T15:17:38.592-07:00As for Matthew G(reen), three things: 1) Produce t...As for Matthew G(reen), three things: 1) Produce the hard evidence since I flatly deny your false accusation; 2) You're a mentally unstable person, which has been confirmed by your near worship of JP Holding, to your later near worship of me, to your new skeptical position as stated above; 3) I wish you well. I'm sorry I haven't paid much attention to you and that you sadly adopt the views of the person who pays attention to you. John W. Loftushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07167826997171207256noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-78451889949210764082015-08-13T15:16:04.245-07:002015-08-13T15:16:04.245-07:00III. One other divide between us is that I don’t c...III. One other divide between us is that I don’t climb on the backs of important people in order to appear more important like Lowder has done with me. I don’t need to you see. Hypocritically Lowder doesn't do this with others who are much more abrasive than I have ever been, which tells me this is his Modus operandi when dealing with me, to use me for his own self-promoting needs. He had to know I would eventually fight back in a really big way.<br /><br />IV. One last divide between us (for now) is over the harms of the Christian faith, especially evangelical faith. Since it is harmful I think it’s imperative to argue against it and to also persuade others it’s false (using ridicule works), whereas Lowder reminds me of one of those fiddlers on the Titanic (okay that’s an exaggeration for effect). The task must be done now. The time is now. Christian faith needs to be debunked now. It isn’t the time for gamesmanship or self-serving personal goals, and it definitely isn’t the time for him to proverbially shoot people like me in the back, who are on the front lines in this war of ideas, especially when I’m having so much success.John W. Loftushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07167826997171207256noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-23855178536978479962015-08-13T15:15:37.927-07:002015-08-13T15:15:37.927-07:00II. Another divide between us is that Lowder too o...II. Another divide between us is that Lowder too often disingenuously acts as if he wants an honest dialogue with theists when the real goal is to be respected as more important than he really is (*cough* a self-proclaimed philosopher). With me I don't need to do this because I have the credentials, the knowledge, and a body of acclaimed work. I can honestly argue for my conclusions without worrying if I’m doing so in a way that will get me respect. [As far as respect goes just look at the authors who wrote chapters for me, and/or wrote blurbs for my books and/or asked me to write blurbs for their books.]<br /><br />Who is Lowder really kidding when he acts as if some new moral argument may succeed? He is an atheist. He no more could change his mind from reading a paper on the moral argument to God's existence than Reppert could change his mind about the AfR based on one paper. I think it's dishonesty all the way down. It's one of his biggest cons. <br /><br />Compared to Lowder I have posted links to several Christian essays on my site, and I have even gone farther than Lowder has on his blog by posting several Christian essays unedited and without comment on mine <a href="http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/search/label/%22Christian%20Scholars%22" rel="nofollow">seen here.</a> But that by itself doesn't mean they could change my mind. The question is fairness, and while I don't think anyone here will agree with me, fairness does not mean one has to be disingenuous or dishonest. I think I am already being fair to the arguments and there are no good arguments for faith.John W. Loftushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07167826997171207256noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-43900921941370420142015-08-13T15:14:58.405-07:002015-08-13T15:14:58.405-07:00There may not be a fundamental divide between us a...There may not be a fundamental divide between us at all, but rather several divides. <br /><br />I. One divide is between a mere computer science B.A. graduate like Lowder, who has some depth in the area of the philosophy of religion, and someone like myself who, a) has a wide breadth of knowledge, b) has more degrees in the areas Lowder knows something about than he and two of his cheerleaders combined (namely Jim Lippard and Bradley Bowen), and c) has more years thinking and reading about these issues than any of them have been alive.<br /><br />There are depth considerations and there are breadth considerations. From all I can see Lowder and his all male white philosophy student cheerleaders lack the breadth I have, and that is more important than having depth. It's the breadth of knowledge I have that causes me to object to the value they place on the philosophy of religion (and <a href="http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2015/08/on-lowders-stupid-atheist-meme-4-lets.html" rel="nofollow">to call for its end in the secular universities</a>). I don’t think the philosophy of religion is that important precisely because I’ve studied it in depth, just as I don’t think the philosophy of science is that important even though I basically minored in it at Seminary, as <a href="http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2015/06/ten-lessons-from-randal-rauser-on-how.html" rel="nofollow">I wrote about here.</a> <br /><br />It’s the breadth of knowledge I have from years of thinking and reading based on a good solid foundational education that makes the difference. I had more class work with leading evangelical and Jesuit thinkers theologians historians and philosophers to earn my three master’s degrees--including a year and a half of Ph.D. work--than most Ph.D. programs require. [As for the dissertation requirement, just think of my book “Why I Became an Atheist” which is called “a monster of reason and logic” by others]. Lowder doesn’t show any awareness of the things I do, most notably but not limited to cognitive dissonance theory and cultural anthropology.John W. Loftushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07167826997171207256noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-78473715803644746122015-08-13T14:56:48.570-07:002015-08-13T14:56:48.570-07:00MatthewG,
I do not place all heretics, skeptics, ...MatthewG,<br /><br />I do not place all heretics, skeptics, non-believers, etc in the same boat. I'm talking about a rather particular self-selected subgroup of them. Notice that I didn't go after Lowder, despite having mammoth disagreements with the man. I would go so far as to say that you and I are probably largely talking about the same people, who make up a portion of what you may call 'heathens in general'.<br /><br />I'm sure disagreement remains, but I'll at least try to be clear about just what I'm saying.Crudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04178390947423928444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-74411973552552715472015-08-13T14:54:52.186-07:002015-08-13T14:54:52.186-07:00Dan,
and they ignore any virtue that their enemie...Dan,<br /><br /><i>and they ignore any virtue that their enemies may have (or they reduce the possibility that an enemy might have virtue to a statistical triviality)</i><br /><br />First off, saying that it's extremely uncommon is not to ignore it - and noting that evidence indicates that it's a statistical triviality is only a problem if the claim is incorrect.<br /><br />In fact, in that same thread, I noted that there is a difference between 'the irreligious' and 'agnostics' - people who identify as something other than atheist, despite being apathetic or non-disposed to belief in God's existence - and people who pick up the label 'atheist'.<br /><br />I pointed at what you're going to find with pretty well every self-declared atheist group in existence. I do not deny that there are atheists who are relaxed, who reject the whole 'theist versus atheist' view, who are not reasonably enemies of Christians. I deny that they exist in meaningful numbers, calling themselves 'atheist'.<br /><br />As for echo chambers, I have the unique trait that I deeply disagree with just about everyone. I don't deny I have some tribalism - most do - but you'll have trouble finding the positive feedback loop I take part in. I even get into it with Aristo-Thomists at Feser's blog.<br /><br />Why, one may almost regard me as unfriendly.Crudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04178390947423928444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-82580223310778857302015-08-13T09:31:52.674-07:002015-08-13T09:31:52.674-07:00Shoot! Even Dan Gillson plays a better "good ...Shoot! Even Dan Gillson plays a better "good cop" that Jeffrey Jay Lowder does.Ilíonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15339406092961816142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-21169782049734880982015-08-13T09:02:27.339-07:002015-08-13T09:02:27.339-07:00Well, I failed at linking some things (a reactiona...Well, I failed at linking some things (a reactionary Christian blog, and a reactionary left-wing blog). Formatting links is hard.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12030785676230758243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-40010410683936564622015-08-13T08:53:13.421-07:002015-08-13T08:53:13.421-07:00" ... we are still moving toward a culture in..."<i> ... we are still moving toward a culture in which we communicate seriously only with like-minded people.</i> ... I disagree. Like-minded people don't talk seriously amongst themselves anymore, at least on the internet. Like-minded people are intellectual prisoners of their tribe's positive feedback loop. They discuss <a href="http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2015/08/christian-apologists-lie-heres-what-i.html#disqus_thread" rel="nofollow">how</a> <a href="javascript:void(0);" rel="nofollow">our</a> <a href="http://dissectleft.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">enemies</a> are* to the choir of approval, and they ignore any virtue that their enemies may have (or they reduce the possibility that an enemy might have virtue to a <a href="http://dangerousidea.blogspot.com/2015/08/are-atheists-and-christians-enemies.html?showComment=1439417010970#c8429766067865593200" rel="nofollow">statistical triviality</a>). It's getting ridiculous.<br /><br />*If you legitimately think, "<i>but my enemies <b>ARE</b> really bad</i>," then you're a fucking idiot.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12030785676230758243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-86201845196926925082015-08-13T08:38:22.927-07:002015-08-13T08:38:22.927-07:00VR: "I think that is the dividing line betwee...<b>VR:</b> "<i>I think that is the dividing line between people like Loftus and people like Lowder.</i>"<br /><br />In truth, the *difference* between "people like Loftus and people like Lowder" (and, apparently, MatthewG) is that people like Loftus have a much larger "radius of concern", let us call it. What I mean is that *every* 'atheist' and 'agnostic' will behave just like Loftus does once they perceive that God is getting a bit too close to them for comfort. <br /><br />Loftus spooks when he sees God's shadow; other 'atheists' (and perhaps Lowder is in this camp) don't spook until the perceive that God is touching them.Ilíonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15339406092961816142noreply@blogger.com