tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post115688452741177664..comments2024-03-28T08:58:27.412-07:00Comments on dangerous idea: Can an Intelligent Person be a Christian? Some Plantingian ReflectionsVictor Repperthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10962948073162156902noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-67588120441901366482013-11-26T17:08:39.993-07:002013-11-26T17:08:39.993-07:00I think a christian can be intelligent and on the ...I think a christian can be intelligent and on the other side of the coin, I think an atheist can also be intelligent. I don't believe a person's belief or disbelief in a higher power is determined by intelligence alone.That being said, I think the whole christian/atheist debate has gotten stale. Atheist just regurgitate the rhetoric of Dawkins and Christians just regurgitate the rhetoric of C.S. Lewis. This blog seems to perpetuate the notion that the theist suffers from delusion because they believe in things which are obviously false. However,i would say that atheist suffer with trust issues having a hard time believing anything that cannot be proving with hard evidence. If an atheist and a christian got in an argument 9/10 times the atheist would win based on logic alone. However, a belief in God is not solely bound to the laws of logic. When I was a child my parents were told they could never have another kid after me because my mom had endometriosis. They tried for 5 years and couldn't get pregnant. Wanting a little brother and not knowing where babies came from I prayed to God to give me a brother. a week later my mom was pregnant. Now she didn't sleep with an angle or anything htey had sex (penis + vagina = baby) Now that experience has shaped my faith throughout my life. I have many friends that are atheist and I have heard the arguments of the moral delima of god, the problem of evil, dark matter and evolution ( I don't necessarily disbelieve the last one. But despite all the logic I have been presented with I can't ignore the 'miracle". No one noes if ther's a God for sure (although this is my belief). Then only way I'll know for sure is when I die, I'll either stay rotting in the ground or go up to heaven.I'm not posting this to change your mind but to try and prove that it is foolish to make make broad sweeping generalizations like christian=idiot and atheist =intelligent. There are some stupid atheist out there too. Although, everyone on this blog seems to be pretty intelligent. So let's all try to get along.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-19351257021464683832011-03-31T21:20:34.600-07:002011-03-31T21:20:34.600-07:00vjack. Was that a kick in the balls disguised as a...vjack. Was that a kick in the balls disguised as a complement? lol. weasel. <br /><br />I have many intelligent Christian friends as well as atheist friends. The most glaring difference I have noticed between the two groups is the level of arrogance and desire to be on the in crowd. Thats it. My friends who have decided to become atheists have decided based on the reasoning (im not sure if this word is completely appropriate) of Dawkins etc and the popularity of such 'free thinking' flavours within the media lately. <br /><br />There is no more reason to think that all Christians must be stupid than to think all Atheists must be intelligent. We all know atheist friends, family who would not be considered particularly 'smart' or who havent really thought very deeply about God but who still choose to be atheists. The decision seems every bit as emotionally and spiritually driven, and without complete rational basis as those people who have not weighed up the philosophical arguments for God but still believe based on the tugging of their hearts and the teachings of Christ.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-34260906677332691702011-03-27T15:06:22.220-07:002011-03-27T15:06:22.220-07:00As an Christian blogger, I say that it is absolute...As an Christian blogger, I say that it is absolutely possible for an intelligent person to be a atheist. Mental illness cuts across all levels of intellect, and high intelligence is not sufficient protection from delusion.<br /><br />There, fixed it for you.<br /><br />Interestingly scienceblogs did a survey that showed a correlation between Aspergers and atheism.<br /><br />Maybe they are wrong in the head.<br /><br />@Hammiesink, welcome to the real world.Duke of Earlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14891442161634560912noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-18493649925928453542011-03-25T07:27:47.600-07:002011-03-25T07:27:47.600-07:00It's called tweaking. It's a sign that yo...It's called tweaking. It's a sign that you uhold a person to high standards in a generally positive manner. Personally, its amusing that you remonstrate me while saying you want me to interpret Dr. Reppert charitably.One Browhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11938816242512563561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-10521534380580466382011-03-24T20:44:46.224-07:002011-03-24T20:44:46.224-07:00It's called being charitable. I read Vic as sa...It's called <i>being charitable</i>. I read Vic as saying, well... exactly what he said: Dawkins started the <i>delusion rhetoric</i>, not, "Dawkins was the first one to use the word 'delusion' in reference to a believer."<br /><br />Whatever though. The plain fact of the matter is that an intelligent person can be a Christian.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-15026129411114305272011-03-24T12:25:57.560-07:002011-03-24T12:25:57.560-07:00cl said...
Of course, that's not what Victor ...cl said... <br /><i>Of course, that's not what Victor said, so you're in good company with your skepticism there.</i><br /><br />I'm sure it's my fault for interpreted "started" to mean the begining of something. My apologies.One Browhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11938816242512563561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-973400268720679192011-03-23T19:37:10.333-07:002011-03-23T19:37:10.333-07:00One Brow,
"Really? No atheist used the notio...<b>One Brow</b>,<br /><br /><i>"Really? No atheist used the notion of delusion to refer to theists, and no theist to refer to atheists, until Dawkins started it? You'll understand if I find that difficult to believe."</i><br /><br />Of course, that's not what Victor said, so you're in good company with your skepticism there.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-45308361585164322332011-03-23T13:55:32.191-07:002011-03-23T13:55:32.191-07:00Victor Reppert said...
Dawkins is the one that st...Victor Reppert said... <br /><i>Dawkins is the one that started the delusion-rhetoric.</i><br /><br />Really? No atheist used the notion of delusion to refer to theists, and no theist to refer to atheists, until Dawkins started it? You'll understand if I find that difficult to believe.<br /><br />I don't see intelligence being particularly relevant to being religious, because intelligence is something people tend to use to support things they believe for other reasons, much of the time, rather than a guide for those beliefs. Similarly, knowledge gets filtered by the lens of those beliefs, and reationality is put in there service. So, I would reject the triplet of "ignorant, stupid or insane".One Browhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11938816242512563561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-82459495190159622802011-03-22T16:33:01.302-07:002011-03-22T16:33:01.302-07:00Matt,
"I'm pretty tired of the whole del...<b>Matt</b>,<br /><br /><i>"I'm pretty tired of the whole delusion bomb that has been getting thrown around. "You delusional Christians!" "I'm not delusional, YOU'RE delusional!" "I'm writing my book The Deluded Delusionists!" "Oh, yeah, I'm publishing Delusional Deluded Deluviations!" If you take a step back it all looks a bit silly."</i><br /><br />I, too, tire of such nonsense from Loftus, Dawkins, <i>et al.</i> Talk about poisoning the well!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-26464244306406366792011-03-22T16:32:22.670-07:002011-03-22T16:32:22.670-07:00I realize this thread is years old, but...
Vic,
...I realize this thread is years old, but...<br /><br /><b>Vic</b>,<br /><br /><i>"I still don't see why irrationality charges are necessary here."</i><br /><br />In my opinion, it might be because the person making irrationality charges needs to cope with cognitive dissonance resulting from the fact that intelligent, rational people can be Christians. Or, it might be that the person making irrationality charges isn't too confident in their own beliefs, and attacking others bolsters their confidence. For whatever reason, I've never felt compelled to label somebody as "irrational" simply because they believe differently than I. Then again, I'm comfortable with my beliefs.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-64979794789114414222011-03-21T10:06:37.783-07:002011-03-21T10:06:37.783-07:00For Dawkins to admit he is ignorant on certain mat...For Dawkins to admit he is ignorant on certain matters like the rest of us and needs to learn like the rest of us would require the removal of The God Delusion from Bookshelves. Or a major reworking to admit how little he knows about many things related to Christian Theism and Theism in general.<br /><br />I look for neither to occur.GREVhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10415494137313565242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-62177480066234749732011-03-20T17:34:55.656-07:002011-03-20T17:34:55.656-07:00Threre might be a coherent argument in that previo...Threre might be a coherent argument in that previous post - but it's 00.30AM here in Ireland, and I'm only awake because my daughter had a nightmare, so I'm not convinced myself. <br />Maybe someone else can work out what I'm getting at. Rebekah's back to sleep, so I'm going back to bed. <br /><br />GrahamMr Vealehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12931446615905211560noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-2703464060202625802011-03-20T17:30:37.147-07:002011-03-20T17:30:37.147-07:00I think that one of the problems in debates about ...I think that one of the problems in debates about atheism and theism - or any debate for that matter - is "expert overconfidence". <br />Quite often a person confuses her expertise in <i>one</i> area with expertise in <i>many</i> areas. Or an expert can overestimate their competence, especially when their mistakes can take years to come to light. In areas like politics, the interpretation of QM, or history or philosophy and ethics, a person might never be falsified in their lifetime. SO their confidence can grow disproportionately. <br />In a sense I agree with John's statement. A high degree of aptitude in one academic area says very little about their aptitudes in other areas. Intelligence is also notoriously difficult to define, nevermind measure. So the existence of intelligent believers or non-believers is neither here nor there. <br /><br />GrahamMr Vealehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12931446615905211560noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-33732816520448677692011-03-19T11:45:22.012-07:002011-03-19T11:45:22.012-07:00Dawkins is the one that started the delusion-rheto...Dawkins is the one that started the delusion-rhetoric. The trouble is, we all know that if I believe not-X, given a justified-true-believe account of knowledge, I cannot believe that you can know X, and so, in that sense, I have to believe that you are ignorant of X. The rhetorical force of Dawkins' comment seems to go beyond, that, which is what everyone claims with respect to any position he or she disagrees with.Victor Repperthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10962948073162156902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-15117055674875391782011-03-19T11:35:50.603-07:002011-03-19T11:35:50.603-07:00In my recent discovery of what theist arguments ac...In my recent discovery of what theist arguments actually say rather than the characterizations that get thrown around the atheist echo chamber, I suddenly find myself in a flip-flopped world, where the Christians are the ones who suddenly seem rational to me.<br /><br />Victor Reppert: "If x, then y, given b and c. But if a, then not-x."<br /><br />John Loftus: "YOU IGNORANT PIECE OF SHIT! YOU'RE SO IGNORANT!! THE WORLD IS TIRED OF YOUR IGNORANCE!!! IGNORANT IGNORANT IGNORANT!!!!!11!!eleven!!"<br /><br />What's going on here? Have I been teleported to oppositeland?Hammiesinknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-64595747683657020862011-03-19T09:03:49.884-07:002011-03-19T09:03:49.884-07:00Say what you want about Dawkins, the man knows how...Say what you want about Dawkins, the man knows how to write -- and provoking people is part of that craft. But I think it's uncharitable to paraphrase his statement so that it appears that his mindset logically leads to merely insulting Christians.<br /><br />I believe that Dawkins would gladly admit that he, like all of us, is ignorant. To take umbrage at the term without asking of what it is that we are ignorant seems like avoiding an opportunity in order to score an easy point.Tony Hoffmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17445688550795779770noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-80642140350500841522011-03-18T22:47:14.979-07:002011-03-18T22:47:14.979-07:00Vic wrote:
"I think it's absolutely saf...Vic wrote: <br /><br />"I think it's absolutely safe to say that Dawkins means something more than just a failure to know the proposition "Evolution is true." That would trivialize his claim. Same with failure to know that "Christianity is false.""<br /><br />Trivialize it how? Look, if we're evaluating what Dawkins says to see if it's true, shouldn't we look at the content of what was said rather than the tone or the implicature? <br /><br />On the larger issue as to whether a Xian can be an intelligent person, I take it that the answer is obviously yes. George Nakhnikian seems to be coherent--someone like Plantinga might be a rational person even if he has some beliefs he only has because he has a screw loose somewhere. Just as a swallow doesn't make a spring, a screw loose doesn't make someone an unreasonable person. Even the most reasonable people have their rational failings. Why can't that view be Dawkins' view? That seems consistent with both the content and possibly the tone of the passage you quoted.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-15668903820303801872011-03-18T21:29:26.244-07:002011-03-18T21:29:26.244-07:00Chris wrote:
"This atheist says that the ans...Chris wrote:<br /><br />"This atheist says that the answer is obviously yes - there are Christians who are truly exceptionally intelligent and who DO apply that intelligence to their Christianity. Is it possible that there are psychological (i.e., nonrational) reasons for their acceptance of Christianity? Of course. The same holds for atheism, however..."<br /><br />Alex: Ha! Thank you for your honesty. I think everyone knows what you wrote is true; hardly anyone will admit to it though. Thx again.Alex Daltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16826568465831489492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-9044658046180887642011-03-18T21:00:15.604-07:002011-03-18T21:00:15.604-07:00Hi Vic,
What do you take "ignorant" to m...Hi Vic,<br />What do you take "ignorant" to mean? Here's a view--you are ignorant with respect to p iff you don't know p. Can an atheist or agnostic really believe that theists aren't ignorant? Not in general, mind you, but on one specific issue?<br /><br />I think it's absolutely safe to say that Dawkins means something more than just a failure to know the proposition "Evolution is true." That would trivialize his claim. Same with failure to know that "Christianity is false."Victor Repperthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10962948073162156902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-63536762401498869522011-03-18T20:47:21.505-07:002011-03-18T20:47:21.505-07:00I’ve never understood the “I used to be this but n...I’ve never understood the “I used to be this but now I’m that and when I used to believe the former I was delusional or insane or duped” argument. The argument smells of the emotions of a recently divorced man who cannot give a single reason why he used to love his wife. Sorry, but it sounds childish to me.<br /><br />I used to be agnostic and I remember why--the reasons still at times seem compelling to me. I used to work in science and left it because it was tedious and unfulfilling, but I still remember why I studied it and I’m glad for the projects I worked on for the sake of humanity and my own financial prosperity (besides giving me a few stories to tell). I used to be a fundamentalist and still have close friends who still are even if we don’t see eye to eye anymore. I remember why I believed what I did, is that really so hard for atheist converts to admit? Do you really have to bore us with the books you have written about your change of mind? <br /><br />Big deal, grow up, it’s not that amazing that people change their minds. It's one of the things that makes life and people interesting.Gimli 4 the Westhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09077653879666675956noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-50923900857393918952011-03-18T20:40:05.506-07:002011-03-18T20:40:05.506-07:00"It is absolutely safe to say that if you mee..."It is absolutely safe to say that if you meet somebody who claims to be a Christian, that person is ignorant, stupid or insane (or wicked, but I'd rather not consider that)."<br /><br />Hi Vic,<br />What do you take "ignorant" to mean? Here's a view--you are ignorant with respect to p iff you don't know p. Can an atheist or agnostic really believe that theists aren't ignorant? Not in general, mind you, but on one specific issue?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-46668203587923263212011-03-18T17:20:07.327-07:002011-03-18T17:20:07.327-07:00I'm pretty tired of the whole delusion bomb th...I'm pretty tired of the whole delusion bomb that has been getting thrown around. "You delusional Christians!" "I'm not delusional, YOU'RE delusional!" "I'm writing my book The Deluded Delusionists!" "Oh, yeah, I'm publishing Delusional Deluded Deluviations!" If you take a step back it all looks a bit silly.<br /><br />I am not offended by the less pejorative charge of bias, however, because that is simply a blanket statement of what one is prone to believe whether it is true or not. In other words, it seems less insulting and does not commit the genetic fallacy. It doesn't rally the masses nearly as well though.Matt Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05947081596759328950noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-88642670743596530732011-03-18T16:00:07.432-07:002011-03-18T16:00:07.432-07:00It's simply not a matter of intelligence at al...It's simply not a matter of intelligence at all.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-70010003369373863892011-03-18T14:01:10.839-07:002011-03-18T14:01:10.839-07:00This atheist says that the answer is obviously yes...This atheist says that the answer is obviously yes - there are Christians who are truly exceptionally intelligent and who DO apply that intelligence to their Christianity. Is it possible that there are psychological (i.e., nonrational) reasons for their acceptance of Christianity? Of course. The same holds for atheism, however. Bias and delusion can be damnably difficult even to see, much less root out. I think my atheism is rational, but I'm pretty sure it's not 'entirely' rational - human beings cannot attain such a goal due to both our general and individual psychological complexity, and the complexity of the many issues that get pulled into the orbit of discussion.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11030669424412573308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-9129110082853585682011-03-18T13:19:49.375-07:002011-03-18T13:19:49.375-07:00I think both sides condescend to the other. And we...I think both sides condescend to the other. And we are all psychological beings, and we can't help psychologizing one another. <br /><br />Although I've never had much interest in philosophy for philosophy's sake, I've come to respect the philosophical approach that considers the theism/atheism divide as one between two arguments, rather than two groups of people.Tony Hoffmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17445688550795779770noreply@blogger.com