If atheists are right, someone could commit a murder, never get caught, and end up happier than they would have been If they had not committed the murder. According to religions, you can get away with murder on earth, but eventually you'll have to face your maker. Does that make a difference in anyone's conduct?
"The fool hath said in his heart, 'There is no God.'" (Psalm 14:1)
ReplyDeleteSo many people get this line wrong. Atheists often mistakenly believe they're being called fools for not believing in God. But if you read further, you'll see that that's getting it entirely backwards. The psalmist is not saying that all atheists are fools, but rather that (many) fools are atheists. They reason that if there is no judge, they can get away with murder. "They are without knowledge, all the doers of evil who devour my people as though they were bread, and do not take the Lord into account." (Psalm 14:4)
Does that make a difference in anyone's conduct?
ReplyDeleteNot if the religion teaches it's practitioners that it's OK to kill people as long as one's "personal experience" tells them it's OK.
I think this refers to practical atheism far more than it does to the belief that God does not exist. People say in their heart that this is not a moral universe and they can do what they want with no consequences, even if they are in church on Sunday morning.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure if that was in response to my comment or not.
ReplyDeleteI was talking about different strains of antinomianism or people who believe they are not sinning if they don't feel guilt (or think they have a good excuse). I haven't personally met too many of the former, but I've met some of the latter.
Does that make a difference in anyone's conduct?
ReplyDeleteHaving gone through different religious states before becoming an atheist, I can say it has made no difference in my conduct.
bmiller,
ReplyDeleteNot if the religion teaches it's practitioners that it's OK to kill people as long as one's "personal experience" tells them it's OK.
There are religions that don't teach that? Jains, maybe?
For the atheist, if you think you are smart enough to get away the murder (or any similarly nefarious act), and are willing to accept the consequences if you're caught, then there are no brakes on committing the murder (or any similarly nefarious act).
ReplyDeleteDr. Gantt,
ReplyDeleteFor the atheist, if you think you are smart enough to get away the murder (or any similarly nefarious act), and are willing to accept the consequences if you're caught, then there are no brakes on committing the murder (or any similarly nefarious act).
What an ignorant and evil thing to say. You're describing a psychopath (some of whom are religious), not an atheist. If you lost your religious belief, would you go around killing people if you thought you could not be caught?
Atheists overall have the same brakes theists so, we just don't dress them up in supernatural clothing. We have empathy, a belief in the value of human life, and an understanding that other people matter.
"Having gone through different religious states before becoming an atheist"
ReplyDeleteHaving gone through different religions states in how to convert atheist, I became a, "I really don't care about atheist." If they are interesting and make good company, then I enjoy their company. If it's all about being an atheist, have at it. Don't care.
I'm not really certain either ultimate reality, but I think Christianity makes sense, I like my church, Jesus Christ changed my life, my marriage is infused with the faith, my lifelong friends are all (mostly struggling) Christians. Why do Christians even care about atheists?
"I think Christianity makes sense"
ReplyDeleteFor me, it's not so much that Christianity "makes sense" but rather that everything else makes sense when viewed through its lens. Without my faith, science, history, art, literature, music, my own life... in fact, the entire universe is worse than just utterly meaningless - it's senseless.
Taken as a universal claim, Dr. Gantt's comment is false. I offer myself as a counter-example. I agree with One Brow that even as a general claim it's still false.
ReplyDelete"For me, it's not so much that Christianity 'makes sense' but rather that everything else makes sense when viewed through its lens."
ReplyDeleteI appreciate that insight Star.
I wonder why Dr Grant's comment got such a hostile reaction and the OP didn't.
ReplyDeleteIt seems almost like a rewording of what Victor wrote.
I believe the reason Dr. Grant's comment was negatively received is that it is a "sweeping generalization", on the order of "All Republicans are racists at heart." Now that may be true for a good many Republicans - but all? I think not.
ReplyDeleteIn the same vein, I would not quarrel with Ivan Karamazov's statement "Absent immortality, everything is permissible*," as long as you clarified it with "but only for some."
* This statement is often erroneously attributed to Dostoevsky, but it is only said by a character in his novel The Brothers Karamazov. We cannot hold an author responsible for everything his characters say. Otherwise, we'd have to accuse Shakespeare of approving of everything his many villains do in his plays.
Starhopper,
ReplyDeleteIf atheists are right, someone could commit a murder, never get caught, and end up happier than they would have been If they had not committed the murder.
I'm not seeing the difference. Victor is directly saying that atheist philosophy allows that a murderer can be content if he's not caught. Dr Grant seems to have just added a little more detail. The atheist must be smart enough not to get caught, and/or be willing to accept the consequences if caught. Those additions seem to be implied in Victor's OP.
Regarding Ivan's statement, it's the character's statement and also reflects the atheistic philosophical positions I assume Dostoevsky is criticizing. Just like Victor and Dr. Grant.
I think an appropriate counterpoint to both Victor and Dr Grant would be an explanation exactly why atheistic philosophy refutes the assertion.
ReplyDeleteHow would one atheist convince another atheist that he should behave?
One difference is that VR asks a reasonable question (to which I suspect the answer is Yes) but DrG makes the false and rather insulting claim that atheists have no moral resources ('brakes').
ReplyDeleteA problem with this discussion is that its framing reduces moral deliberation to rational optimisation over a belief system. I hope everyone would find that absurd.
I think that may be an uncharitable reading since he just said "The atheist", not "All atheists", but you could be right.
ReplyDeleteI agree that the answer to question of whether one's philosophy affects one's behavior doesn't address the truth of anyone's philosophy at a superficial level, but people have found it relevant to address social order. Elites have argued it is better for society to believe in a religion rather than not even if the the religion isn't true.
Looks to me like the NYT is trying to get ahead of an upcoming story as usual
ReplyDeleteIs it more racist to eat white people, or black people?
Do different ethnicities taste different?
Is cannibalism indigenous science, and unfairly demonized by white supremacy patriarchy systems of oppression?
Buckle up!
"on the order of 'All Republicans are racists at heart.' Now that may be true for a good many Republicans - but all?"
ReplyDeleteI'm with you Star, I think a few Democrats are not child molesters. I don't know how many, but certainly not all. I don't have the actual data, but I'm an opened minded kinda guy, in a group as large as half the country there has to be a few Democrats who are not completely evil. At least some. A few? Maybe one or two.
Limited,
ReplyDeleteI hope you said that only hoping to let out some frustration. There is no way you can make an impression on leftists with just words. Here's a one of their training manuals I found online.
Miller,
ReplyDeleteI thank you for your charitable thoughts about my absurd comment. Half my church (the people I love), if I know their politics at all, probably vote for the Democratic Party. I think the Republicans have better ideas for self-government. I also believe they are the party of being race neutral.
Republicans being racist deserves mockery. It is the party that freed the slaves among other race neutral policies.
bmiller,
ReplyDeleteHow would one atheist convince another atheist that he should behave?
By using empathy and reason. Anyone lacking in empathy will not behave morally, regardless of religion.
Limited Perspective,
ReplyDeleteI also believe they are the party of being race neutral.
The white nationalists almost universally support the Republican party. Why have they all been fooled?
One Brow,
ReplyDeleteCan you tell me the most influential white nationalist group in the U.S. and their website? Send me the link. I will look into it. I want to know their connection with the Republicans.
If you are interested in racial division and hatred promoted by the left, I will respond in kind.
HERE is a link to an interview (with Prof. Loretta Ross), which demonstrates that it is possible to have reasoned, intelligent discussions about hot button issues such as abortion or racism, without descending to name calling or labeling (such as "baby killers", "war on women", or "white supremacist"), which, when you think about it, are conversation killers - and are meant to be so.
ReplyDeleteThe best way to close your mind is to label anyone you disagree with as something irredeemably negative. We (myself included) could all learn from such a mindset. If you believe your opponent is evil... well, you can't negotiate with evil, can you?
Anyway, take the time to listen to the interview. You'll be a better person for having done so.
Starhopper,
ReplyDeleteWe (myself included) could all learn from such a mindset.
You, the bomb-thrower who provoked a retaliation, are now telling everyone to calm down and listen to this abortion advocate.
Yeah, right.
Yes, exactly so. That's precisely what I am suggesting.
ReplyDeleteThanks for the online IQ test.
ReplyDeleteLimited Perspective,
ReplyDeleteThanks, but I'm well aware of what most people on the right regard as "racial division and hatred", and I am only impressed by the hurt feelings and refusal to understand what is being said. I don't think you have any cases of significant left voices supporting racial division nor hatred.
https://religiondispatches.org/this-years-afpac-brought-the-white-nationalist-fringe-one-giant-step-closer-to-the-center-of-the-gop/
For that matter, just look at CPAC choosing Hungary.
Another worrisome story. This time by USA today:
ReplyDeleteOur rating: False
Based on our research, we rate FALSE the claim that scientists at CERN are communicating with demonic entities and opening a portal to hell. There is no evidence scientists at CERN are engaged in anything other than scientific-related activities. The collider cannot open up portals to other dimensions. Experts said scientists use the machine to collide particles at very high energies to study matter.
When the MSM starts denying things, you gotta know something is up. 😨
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteAlso rated False: We are in a recession.
ReplyDeletebmiller,
ReplyDeleteWe are in a recession when the NEBR declares one. It's been that way for deaces.
I don't have hurt feelings about any people, whether Native Americans, Nigerians, Japanese, Koreans, Hungarians, African Americans, or the Irish wanting to preserve their culture and homeland (the exception being African Americans, as they are robbed of a homeland). But, I am also free (at least for now) to criticize all these people and cultures by the same standard. You give me your standard of human rights, economic opportunity, access to healthcare or education, tolerance, whatever your standards are, and we will apply equal scrutiny to the Hungarians and the Ethiopians. Tell me your standards and we will dig in.
ReplyDeleteIf I get around to it, or even care, I will send you the list of things that Left is done to destroy racial relations in America. But I mostly don't care anymore.
A recent legal ruling illustrating the concept of how remote material cooperation with evil without proportionate reason does not mean one is innocent of that evil.
ReplyDeleteHERE
How some Christians could justifying getting away with murder. Both historically and today.
ReplyDeleteIf I get around to it, or even care,
ReplyDelete