tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post8965879424209423652..comments2024-03-28T12:34:14.649-07:00Comments on dangerous idea: Defending Buddhism against LoftusVictor Repperthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10962948073162156902noreply@blogger.comBlogger35125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-48828030977719150672011-10-01T14:51:39.331-07:002011-10-01T14:51:39.331-07:00There is No Such a Thing as “Mere Christianity”:
...There is No Such a Thing as “Mere Christianity”:<br /><br />http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2011/10/argument-from-christian-diversity-there.htmlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-53316256716149384582011-09-27T09:21:50.125-07:002011-09-27T09:21:50.125-07:00Here's something to consider in our endless de...Here's something to consider in our endless debates; <a href="http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2011/09/omniscient-god-solves-all-problems-and.html" rel="nofollow">Cheers</a>.<br /><br />I'm not subscribed here.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-27003037036509144132011-09-12T13:03:10.983-07:002011-09-12T13:03:10.983-07:00Blue Devil Knight said...
But many practicing Budd...Blue Devil Knight said...<br /><i>But many practicing Buddhists don't buy into that, or any of the more supernatural stuff, in a literal sense any more than the majority of Christians believe Noah really built an ark.</i><br /><br />Without a cycle of death and rebirth, is there more to Buddhism (on a fundamental level, I understand there will be many details) than simply reaching for enlightenment while in this life, via detachment from things? I agree that would not be a religion.One Browhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11938816242512563561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-1217123617032017842011-09-11T01:21:07.911-07:002011-09-11T01:21:07.911-07:00I wanted to add that being an atheist doesn't ...I wanted to add that being an atheist doesn't mean that you don't believe in God or a higher power. I should know, because I was an atheist for many years, and I believed in God. <br /><br />What's more, a Pew Forum poll of religion in America showed that 21% of US atheists believe in God, (6% a personal God, 12% an impersonal force, and 3% did not know).<br /><br />One can be an atheist and believe in God, just as one can be a Buddhist and not believe in any kind of rebirth or afterlife or anything else. I should know.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-44055455470359370282011-09-10T22:03:23.479-07:002011-09-10T22:03:23.479-07:00Bob says, "And all the Korean Buddhists whom...Bob says, "And all the Korean Buddhists whom I knew credited Buddha with being the Creator of All, which in my books equals God."<br /><br />That seems perhaps a somewhat idolatrous notion when one considers as Karl's Rev. Kusala notes:<br /><br />"Did the Buddha believe in God, the One God of the desert, the God of the Christians, Jews and Muslims?<br />Well... No... He didn't... Monotheism (only one God) was a foreign concept to the Buddha, his world was filled with many gods. The creator god Brahma being the most important one.<br />At the time of the Buddha, the only people practicing the religion of the One God of the desert, were the Jews. Remember, it was still 500 years before Christ came into the world."<br /><br />There hardly seems to be much equivalence between Bob's perspective with that of Rev Kusala.<br />And with BDK 's response to One Brow, noting: "One brow: that [Karmic cycling] is an important piece of many (perhaps the majority, especially in Asian countries) sects of Buddhism. But many practicing Buddhists don't buy into that, or any of the more supernatural stuff, in a literal sense any more than the majority of Christians believe Noah really built an ark."<br /><br />An interesting collection of views.Papalintonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03818630173726146048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-242386494862720472011-09-10T18:30:45.882-07:002011-09-10T18:30:45.882-07:00One brow: that is an important piece of many (perh...One brow: that is an important piece of many (perhaps the majority, especially in Asian countries) sects of Buddhism. But many practicing Buddhists don't buy into that, or any of the more supernatural stuff, in a literal sense any more than the majority of Christians believe Noah really built an ark.<br /><br />I found those Buddhists that <i>did</i> believe such things were almost tentative in that belief, and certainly never told me it was crucial, that I couldn't be a Buddhist without it.<br /><br />However, I should have been more clear on this: Bob is right that probably the majority do believe in some supernatural elements, including karmic cycling.Blue Devil Knighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12045468316613818510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-67629156702792981782011-09-10T08:29:16.893-07:002011-09-10T08:29:16.893-07:00One Brow,
I'm with you on this one. I've ...One Brow,<br /><br />I'm with you on this one. I've never met BDK, but I have met many, many Buddhists (all Asians), and every last one of them believed in "the soul" and in life both before birth and after death.<br /><br />And all the Korean Buddhists whom I knew credited Buddha with being the Creator of All, which in my books equals God. I also understand that the Buddhists of Southeast Asia and Sri Lanka (and, I think, Bali) regard Buddha as divine.B. Prokophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10548980245078214688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-38319409594558634352011-09-10T07:59:23.916-07:002011-09-10T07:59:23.916-07:00Blue Devil Knight said...
This is not true. An old...Blue Devil Knight said...<br /><i>This is not true. An old friend of mine is a Buddhist priest, and does not believe this. I was a Buddhist for a time, and did not believe it. </i><br /><br />So, no cycle of death and rebirth?One Browhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11938816242512563561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-30456634752562524762011-09-10T06:11:34.292-07:002011-09-10T06:11:34.292-07:00Another distinction between Buddhism and western t...Another distinction between Buddhism and western theism is that Buddhism is not a 'revealed' religion, so one isn't forced to believe in or defend sacred texts. Such texts can be as much of a hindrance as an aid to enlightenment. 'They are all demons' words...', as one parable ends.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-67288899436962280162011-09-10T03:10:04.399-07:002011-09-10T03:10:04.399-07:00Well, "No True Buddhist" denies the surv...Well, "No True Buddhist" denies the survival of the individual after death! (smiles)B. Prokophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10548980245078214688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-75762644001037563172011-09-09T18:34:56.900-07:002011-09-09T18:34:56.900-07:00Bob said:
ALL Buddhist believe in the survival of ...Bob said:<br /><i>ALL Buddhist believe in the survival of the individual after death.</i><br /><br />This is not true. An old friend of mine is a Buddhist priest, and does not believe this. I was a Buddhist for a time, and did not believe it. My other Buddhist friends did not believe it. And those that I do not know, it never came up as something essential.<br /><br />That's not to say that it is not important in some sects of Buddhism. But you way overstated things.Blue Devil Knighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12045468316613818510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-68925995442990441972011-09-09T15:57:36.639-07:002011-09-09T15:57:36.639-07:00Karl
"Oh, by the way Pap, I will be busy play...Karl<br />"Oh, by the way Pap, I will be busy playing World of Tanks for awhile, so I'll let you have the last word, I know your ego will not be able resist it. Cheers."<br /><br />No. it's not a case of 'having the last word', but about correcting misinformation or half-truths, on the record. In this case it is having the 'last three words'.<br /><br />But I guess that subtlety might too be lost in the weave of this thread although I have tried to nuance it as a brick to the head.<br /><br />CheersPapalintonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03818630173726146048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-56068075534500983792011-09-09T15:50:17.902-07:002011-09-09T15:50:17.902-07:00BDK
"I think the important thing isn't wh...BDK<br />"I think the important thing isn't whether many Buddhists believe in supernatural beings. It's that this is not essential to being a Buddhist, while it is (arguably) essential to being a Christian."<br /><br />Spot on. And my verbose way of attempting to articulate that point was that Buddhists in differing areas, Thailand, Korea, may have local mythology entwined in their personal conception, but that it is simply not pertinent to the practice of Buddhism.Papalintonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03818630173726146048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-35076965708213559042011-09-09T15:41:42.674-07:002011-09-09T15:41:42.674-07:00Bob
"ALL Buddhist believe in the survival of ...Bob<br />"ALL Buddhist believe in the survival of the individual after death. By definition this means that ALL Buddhists believe in the supernatural."<br /><br />Perhaps a bit of stretch, Bob. And not really a belief in the supernatural. And certainly not as jejune as the christian myth. Rather, as I understand it, Buddhists believe in cycles of life and death, a continuous process aspiring to reach a state of nirvanah and the length and number of those repeated life/death cycles is governed by the time one might take to reach that state of Nirvanah. Some never reach it and are in perpetual cycle. Others do. Some take longer, some shorter.Papalintonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03818630173726146048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-88781928378018163922011-09-09T15:27:30.414-07:002011-09-09T15:27:30.414-07:00Karl
"PapaL: But christian, you are not; not...Karl<br />"PapaL: But christian, you are not; not in the true sense, you know, 'turn the other cheek', 'love your enemies'<br /><br />Karl Isn't it odd how many men who mock and ridicule Christianity are so quick to hide behind its teachings when the going gets tough?"<br /><br />Obviously sarcasm is lost on you.Papalintonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03818630173726146048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-80151446531431947682011-09-09T13:22:41.254-07:002011-09-09T13:22:41.254-07:00BDK,
ALL Buddhist believe in the survival of the ...BDK,<br /><br />ALL Buddhist believe in the survival of the individual after death. By definition this means that ALL Buddhists believe in the supernatural.B. Prokophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10548980245078214688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-19899273273588648472011-09-09T12:31:18.195-07:002011-09-09T12:31:18.195-07:00I think the important thing isn't whether many...I think the important thing isn't whether many Buddhists believe in supernatural beings. It's that this is not essential to being a Buddhist, while it is (arguably) essential to being a Christian.Blue Devil Knighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12045468316613818510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-39570790070248684042011-09-09T07:38:35.605-07:002011-09-09T07:38:35.605-07:00Oh, by the way Pap, I will be busy playing World o...Oh, by the way Pap, I will be busy playing World of Tanks for awhile, so I'll let you have the last word, I know your ego will not be able resist it. Cheers.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-6083143165837037332011-09-09T07:27:47.442-07:002011-09-09T07:27:47.442-07:00Pap,
First off, what I believe to be the correct ...Pap,<br /><br />First off, what I believe to be the correct religion has nothing to do with the fact that Buddhists believe in supernatural creatures not recognized by science, a point you have just conceded, thank you for that.<br /><br /><i>What was your purpose in this comment Karl? Was it to denigrate Buddhism because 'they' believe in goblins and shape-shifting foxes, or was it to demonstrate that Buddhism is not unlike christianity with its retinue of phantasmic retainers?</i><br /><br />Nope, merely to point out that many Buddhists do believe in supernatural creatures as opposed to your statements above that they do not. <br /><br /><i>but rather from much older oral folktales that Korean buddhists have been unable, unwilling or incapable of shedding.</i><br /><br />It's not just Koreans, I am sure that Wikipedia page on Kumiho had links to pages on Kitsune and Huli jing; the Japanese and Chinese versions of the Kumiho respectively.<br /><br /><i>I suggest just another case of fallacious misrepresenting of the facts, impugning Buddhism and lying [perhaps inadvertently] for jesus.</i><br /><br />Ah, ad hominem again. Seriously Pap, you starting to sound like a broken record. <br /><br /><i>Ooooooo! A bit hot under the collar, are we?</i><br /><br />No, my sides are hurting from the laughter. So I think this statement says more about your reaction to this discussion than mine. Oh well. <br /><br /><i>But christian, you are not; not in the true sense, you know, 'turn the other cheek', 'love your enemies'</i><br /><br />Isn't it odd how many men who mock and ridicule Christianity are so quick to hide behind its teachings when the going gets tough? Sorry Pap, having burned that bridge you are not entitled to cross it whenever you feel like. After all, if Christianity is a bunch bullcrap like you keep saying, why should I show any respect to you? Now go to the blackboard and write <i>I can not have it both ways</i> one hundred times.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-6701053500623195622011-09-09T07:10:22.387-07:002011-09-09T07:10:22.387-07:00Karl
"Well, if you want to play that game (de...Karl<br />"Well, if you want to play that game (despite it being the ad hominem fallacy again, but I digress) we could ask what one dumbass Aussie's opinion of Buddhism, or any religion for that matter, is worth. Especially when his sole academic credentials appear to be the ability to copy-and-paste from Wikipedia and regurgitate Harris-Loftus-Dawkins-etc... propaganda lines."<br /><br />Ooooooo! A bit hot under the collar, are we? And it seems, as a good pious, righteous, believing and practicing christian, you have no qualms with slinging the odd bit of ad hominem yourself. I'm glad to note your are human. But christian, you are not; not in the true sense, you know, 'turn the other cheek', 'love your enemies', etc etc. Christianity doesn't seem to guiding much of your approach to those that don't have much respect for superstitious nonsense. <br /><br />Oh Well!Papalintonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03818630173726146048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-53495366800374622192011-09-09T06:58:53.413-07:002011-09-09T06:58:53.413-07:00Karl
"Did you somehow miss that Bob and I hav...Karl<br />"Did you somehow miss that Bob and I have been to Korea? "<br /><br />So Karl, following your jaunt to Korea, and your little foray into Buddhism, which is the one and only true religion, christianity or Buddhism, even with each replete with respective entourages of spectral dramatis personae?<br /><br />Karl: "I spent two weeks in Seoul and agree with B. Prokop. I found Korean Buddhists believing goblins (Dokkebi, hope I spelled that right), Kumiho (nine-tailed shape-shifting foxes), Gwishin (ghosts) and I forget what else. Now it has been three years since I vistied South Korea and I was only there for two weeks so I am not exactly an expert on Korean Buddhist mythology."<br /><br />What was your purpose in this comment Karl? Was it to denigrate Buddhism because 'they' believe in goblins and shape-shifting foxes, or was it to demonstrate that Buddhism is not unlike christianity with its retinue of phantasmic retainers? Either way, such belief is unmitigated superstition.<br />From Wiki; "Dokkaebi is a common word for a type of spirit in Korean folklore or fairy tales.<br />The Dokkaebi is a mythical being that appears in many old Korean folktales. Although usually frightening, it could also represent a humorous, grotesque-looking sprite or goblin. These creatures loved mischief and playing mean tricks on bad people and they rewarded good people with wealth and blessings. Dokkaebi are described as the transformed spirits of inanimate objects."<br /><br />"Kumiho: "The gumiho (구미호 / 구 "gu" - nine) (literally "nine tailed fox") is a creature that appears in the oral tales and legends of Korea,[1], and are akin to European faeries."<br /><br />So Karl, it seems Dokkebi and Kumiho do not emerge from Buddhism per se, but rather from much older oral folktales that Korean buddhists have been unable, unwilling or incapable of shedding. <br /><br />I suggest just another case of fallacious misrepresenting of the facts, impugning Buddhism and lying [perhaps inadvertently] for jesus.Papalintonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03818630173726146048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-17643887357910489712011-09-09T05:56:32.734-07:002011-09-09T05:56:32.734-07:00Paps,
The majoritity of your first response can s...Paps,<br /><br />The majoritity of your first response can summarized as such:<br /><br /><i>Kusala doesn't know jackshit about Buddhism because he's American! Just ignore the fact he is an ordained Buddhist priest and underwent Buddhist theological training.</i><br /><br />Well, if you want to play that game (despite it being the ad hominem fallacy again, but I digress) we could ask what one dumbass Aussie's opinion of Buddhism, or any religion for that matter, is worth. Especially when his sole academic credentials appear to be the ability to copy-and-paste from Wikipedia and regurgitate Harris-Loftus-Dawkins-etc... propaganda lines.<br /><br /><i>To postulate that Buddhism by association is something like christianity, with its panoply of other-worldly non-human creatures, is to do a disservice to Buddhism.</i><br /><br />Did you somehow miss that Bob and I have been to Korea? We know from first hand experience how prevalent belief in supernatural creatures and phenomenon are among Buddhists. Of course, I can see how Wiki scholar like you would be unable to grasp the implications there. But then again, maybe you could use that Wiki to look up the three supernatural creatures I listed of whom belief in is widespread in Korea. <br /><br /><i>Indeed one of the commenters on the site you offered, named Paul</i><br /><br />One anonymous internet commenter, whose academic credentials are unknown and who might even be you versus Discover Magazine....you know what, I think your replies are getting more pathetic. And here I was hoping for some high-quality trolling. For shame Pap.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-1329539744020889822011-09-08T21:43:17.601-07:002011-09-08T21:43:17.601-07:00Karl
The Discover Magazine write-up of Buddhists b...Karl<br />The Discover Magazine write-up of Buddhists believing in a god is a bit if a furphy. Quite misleading.<br /><br />Indeed one of the commenters on the site you offered, named Paul, sussed it out:<br /><br />"This is misleading. The question that the researcher asked is: “Do you believe in God or a Universal Spirit.” What is a Universal Spirit? Something pretty vague.<br />It is not a Creator God or a Law-Giver God or a God that desires worship or rituals or that punishes and rewards. If people answer that they believe in a Universal Spirit that is a metaphysical concept not a religious concept."<br /><br />I probably wouldn't be hanging my hat on these statistics.<br /><br />CheersPapalintonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03818630173726146048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-9246681945919276182011-09-08T20:04:56.001-07:002011-09-08T20:04:56.001-07:00Does Kusala, an american buddhist, know it all bec...Does Kusala, an american buddhist, know it all because he is Amercan or because he is a Buddhist? The most that I can attribute to Kusala, Karl, is that his is a personal idiosyncratic experience, much like the basis of christianity, and none of any of it having transferable or transmissible value or that can be tested or scrutinized for its veracity at a broader level. And if he is a believer in a god as he purports to, then he is in the 33% minority of Buddhists that do.<br /><br />But then christians are practiced in believing that their particular individual personal experiences are truths of a universal understanding. And we know that is a lot of tripe even in the most favourable of circumstances.<br /><br />To postulate that Buddhism by association is something like christianity, with its panoply of other-worldly non-human creatures, is to do a disservice to Buddhism. <br /><br />Yes there are some forms of Buddhism that treat Buddha as a god, as in elements of Thai Buddhism, but this is exception to the rule. <br /><br />I am quite amused at Kusala's personal glorying of his achievements:<br />http://urbandharma.org/kusalainfo/index.html <br />In fact he seems ....... quite proud of his track record.<br /><br />From Wiki:<br />"Ethnocentrism of any sort (including the idea of belonging to a 'school of Buddhism' as well as evangelism and religious supremacism) is, according to Buddhist thought, rooted in self-grasping and reified thought - the cause of Samsara itself. The current Dalai Lama has repeatedly argued that any attempt to convert individuals from their beliefs is not only non-Buddhist, but abusive: the identification of evangelism as an expression of compassion is considered to be false, and indeed the idea that Buddhism is the only true path is likewise false for Buddhists."Papalintonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03818630173726146048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-70247723607159478402011-09-08T17:47:50.634-07:002011-09-08T17:47:50.634-07:00That's nice Pap, but it still amounts to the f...That's nice Pap, but it still amounts to the fact that Buddhists believe in forces that western science does not recognize. <br /><br /><a href="http://urbandharma.org/udharma3/budgod.html" rel="nofollow"> Also, from Rev. Kusala Bhikshu (a Buddhist monk, so I think he would know a thing or two about Buddhism):</a><br /><br /><i>Does that mean that every Buddhist in the world is an atheist? No!!! I have met a lot of Buddhists who believe in God. I have met a lot of Buddhists who don’t believe in God... And a lot of Buddhists just don’t know. All three points of view are OK if you’re Buddhist because suffering is more important than God in Buddhism.</i><br /><br /><a href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2009/04/asian-buddhists-believe-in-god/" rel="nofollow"> From <i>Discover Magazine</i> on poll showing the percentages of Buddhists that believe in God or gods, show the majority do believe in deities.</a>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com