tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post8880980886215095565..comments2024-03-27T15:34:14.749-07:00Comments on dangerous idea: The real argument of Roe v. Wade: Abortion and the burden of proof Victor Repperthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10962948073162156902noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-76113079177476211252018-04-05T16:07:12.297-07:002018-04-05T16:07:12.297-07:00bmiller said...
Would it have been OK for Mary to ...<i>bmiller said...<br />Would it have been OK for Mary to have exercised her right to privacy and aborted Jesus by using Ru486? <br /><br />At the moment when the power of the Most High overshadowed her, Mary carried the Second Person of the Trinity. So to believers, there is no argument.</i><br /><br />Really? You don't think carrying God in your womb is any sort of special case?<br /><br />Numbers 5 describes the procedure for having an abortion when a husband suspects his wife has been unfaithful. If a passage describing how to get an approved abortion does not end the argument in favor of the right to an abortion for believers, you'll understand if many don't take your far weaker precedent seriously, I'm sure.One Browhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11938816242512563561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-1326521596539197822018-04-03T15:44:06.369-07:002018-04-03T15:44:06.369-07:00Victor,
Vr: But this is exactly the kind of reaso...Victor,<br /><br /><b>Vr: But this is exactly the kind of reason you can't use to base law upon. You cannot expect the general public to know that, since it includes Jews, Muslims, atheists, and liberal Christians who don't believe in the Virgin Birth. So this is one way you might know that abortion is wrong, but be unable to expect the body politic to believe the same thing. </b><br /><br />Right. That statement was to Christians who support abortion and not meant necessarily as an argument for establishing laws.<br /><br />But it does raise the question of what exactly is the basis of law in America doesn't it? Should we give equal deference to the laws favored by Muslim societies? Or the recent atheist communist societies? If eliminative materialists are correct, there is no me to kill, so how could that be wrong?bmillerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05855545675821692382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-75744732878619024132018-04-03T15:13:48.330-07:002018-04-03T15:13:48.330-07:00@dcleve,
The Constitution establishes citizenship...@dcleve,<br /><br /><b>The Constitution establishes citizenship based on birth. There is no Constitutional justification to extend personhood to fetuses.</b><br /><br />As I mentioned above, neither murder or abortion are mentioned in the Constitution, so the legislation was left up to the states. Personhood also is not mentioned in the Constitution either and there is no universally accepted definition of that term if it was.<br /><br />bmillerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05855545675821692382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-5228752476474666432018-04-03T15:07:49.875-07:002018-04-03T15:07:49.875-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.bmillerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05855545675821692382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-50810842958376354402018-04-03T13:34:42.850-07:002018-04-03T13:34:42.850-07:00bmiller: At the moment when the power of the Most ...bmiller: At the moment when the power of the Most High overshadowed her, Mary carried the Second Person of the Trinity. So to believers, there is no argument.<br /><br />Vr: But this is exactly the kind of reason you can't use to base law upon. You cannot expect the general public to know that, since it includes Jews, Muslims, atheists, and liberal Christians who don't believe in the Virgin Birth. So this is one way you might know that abortion is wrong, but be unable to expect the body politic to believe the same thing. <br />Victor Repperthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10962948073162156902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-43576015419104705892018-04-03T13:12:47.968-07:002018-04-03T13:12:47.968-07:00The Constitution establishes citizenship based on ...The Constitution establishes citizenship based on birth. There is no Constitutional justification to extend personhood to fetuses. dclevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11722254678101643363noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-89344455381055627232018-04-01T08:29:52.160-07:002018-04-01T08:29:52.160-07:00Happy Easter to all.
He is risen!Happy Easter to all.<br /><br />He is risen!bmillerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05855545675821692382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-37132936040042791362018-04-01T08:03:16.476-07:002018-04-01T08:03:16.476-07:00Would it have been OK for Mary to have exercised h...Would it have been OK for Mary to have exercised her right to privacy and aborted Jesus by using Ru486? <br /><br />At the moment when the power of the Most High overshadowed her, Mary carried the Second Person of the Trinity. So to believers, there is no argument.bmillerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05855545675821692382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-62353412726917548522018-03-31T22:52:00.024-07:002018-03-31T22:52:00.024-07:00I always wonder why Ru486 is just invisible to peo...I always wonder why Ru486 is just invisible to people on this topic,it could solve the whole issue. I wonder why people can't handle the arguments that we can;t rove when it becomes a person, and so have to make a judgement.<br /><br />On Metacrock's blog:<br /><a href="http://metacrock.blogspot.com/2018/03/resurrection-historical-or-history.html" rel="nofollow"><b>"The resurrection: Historical or history making"</b></a> This is my obligatory Resurrection pace or Easter, I use the Moltmann rules change argent to argue for the resurrection as "history making reality" rather than historical fact, This is not to say that I don't accept it as a fact,Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-59443226131886131642018-03-31T19:21:22.253-07:002018-03-31T19:21:22.253-07:00Here is the argument I am inclined to make on Roe:...<b>Here is the argument I am inclined to make on Roe: .....To make it a matter of state choice, which is what Rehnquist and Scalia's arguments entail, strikes me as a violation of the equal protection clause.</b><br /><br />The argument that Rehnquist and Scalia were making was based on how the framers designed the constitution. The Federal government is limited to the powers listed in the Constitution and amendments. The 10th Amendment specifies:"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."<br /><br />Neither murder* nor abortion were listed as federal crimes, so the laws and punishments were left up to each state. With the Roe decision instead of each state legislature having the power to regulate abortion laws, or even the federal legislature having that power, the Supreme Court has taken over the legislation function and determined for everyone which of their interests are "compelling" and which aren't. That's basically what the dissent was complaining about.<br /><br /><b>Either abortion is a right protected by the Constitution in all states, or the fetus's right to life is protected by the Constitution in all 50 states. </b><br /><br />Of course there is no specific mention of abortion being a right in the Constitution, nor is there an explicit prohibition against it. It's just the opinion of 5 people in robes.<br /><br />But Victor, here is a philosophical question for you as a Christian.<br /><br />Would it have been OK for Mary to have exercised her right to privacy and aborted Jesus? <br /><br /><br /><br />*murder of federal officials being a separate matter.bmillerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05855545675821692382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-71208884730640970992018-03-31T18:30:24.646-07:002018-03-31T18:30:24.646-07:00We believe lots of things, in many cases with good...<b>We believe lots of things, in many cases with good reason, which we may not consider to be evident to all reasonable persons. Not every theist believes that all atheists are irrational, and not ever atheist believes that all theists are irrational.</b><br /><br />Don't you think those who believe the unborn *don't* have a right to life should exercise the same consideration? After all the consequences for them being wrong is the intentional murder of another human being. So of course they are not weighing the scales of reason fairly and therefore are not being reasonable.bmillerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05855545675821692382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-90853899020723385552018-03-31T17:42:01.433-07:002018-03-31T17:42:01.433-07:00Victor: "Either abortion is a right protecte...Victor: "Either abortion is a right protected by the Constitution in all states, or the fetus's right to life is protected by the Constitution in all 50 states."<br /><br />Agreed. The "states' rights" argument appears to be more a strategy of undermining Roe due to the difficulty of adding constitutional amendments, rather than a philosophical position. <br /><br />Kevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02593005679430527458noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-32625670388833087612018-03-31T16:27:18.750-07:002018-03-31T16:27:18.750-07:00Here is the argument I am inclined to make on Roe:...Here is the argument I am inclined to make on Roe: Either abortion is a right protected by the Constitution in all states, or the fetus's right to life is protected by the Constitution in all 50 states. If the pro-life arguments work to the level they need to be in order to make a case against Roe, (and some of you think it does) then most will argue that life rights outweigh privacy rights, and the fetus, from conception, has a Constitutionally protected right to life. To make it a matter of state choice, which is what Rehnquist and Scalia's arguments entail, strikes me as a violation of the equal protection clause. Victor Repperthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10962948073162156902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-28783558213647621652018-03-31T16:19:06.882-07:002018-03-31T16:19:06.882-07:00We believe lots of things, in many cases with good...We believe lots of things, in many cases with good reason, which we may not consider to be evident to all reasonable persons. Not every theist believes that all atheists are irrational, and not ever atheist believes that all theists are irrational. Victor Repperthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10962948073162156902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-28474218215243015292018-03-30T20:16:34.568-07:002018-03-30T20:16:34.568-07:00It seems you can accept the Roe argument even if y...<b>It seems you can accept the Roe argument even if you, in your own viewpoint, believe that fetuses have the right to life and that abortion is always wrong. The question is not whether abortion is justified, the question is whether the fetus's right to life is as evident as a woman's right to privacy.</b><br /><br />This really doesn't make sense to me.<br /><br />If I believe that an unborn baby has the right to live then *I have already decided that it is evident*. So no, someone who believed it was evident that the unborn are human beings with full human rights could not accept the dichotomy as presented. If the unborn baby is a human being with the right to life, then it follows that if the woman has a right to life and privacy, so does the other human being we are discussing.<br /><br />It could only seem reasonable to someone who doesn't think the unborn have a right to life and wants to avoid mentioning their position.<br /><br />But aside from that, the dissent regarding the 14th amendment centered mostly on "due process" argument of the majority and the type of judicial scrutiny that had been historically applied in cases of that type since that was the reasoning of the majority. <a href="http://www.endroe.org/dissentsrehnquist.aspx" rel="nofollow">The majority applied "strict scrutiny" rather than the traditional "rational relations" scrutiny applied in due process cases.</a> That and the fact that the framers of the amendment and those who ratified it did not perceive abortion to be a "right" when they passed it since abortion was illegal in the states in 1868 and remained illegal till the 1960's.bmillerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05855545675821692382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-10024850452256362082018-03-30T18:05:27.853-07:002018-03-30T18:05:27.853-07:00Based off the good arguments I’ve read from Beckwi...Based off the good arguments I’ve read from Beckwith, I cannot agree with your premise 3. “Reasonable people” used to exclude others from rights as well. <br /><br />I’ve never understood how the argument hinges on privacy. Such a red herring. Right to privacy somehow doesn’t equal right to do any drugs or commit suicide. Can’t privately end your toddler’s life. Etc.abcde234324https://www.blogger.com/profile/15499783278280196345noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-68032553785489628072018-03-30T14:38:58.569-07:002018-03-30T14:38:58.569-07:00"But the fetus's right to life cannot be ..."But the fetus's right to life cannot be established."<br /><br />If ignoring facts casts the truth in doubt, perhaps. Judges can decide legality, but not truth.Kevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02593005679430527458noreply@blogger.com