tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post8588067915761409579..comments2024-03-27T15:34:14.749-07:00Comments on dangerous idea: Why Ridicule and Debate don't mixVictor Repperthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10962948073162156902noreply@blogger.comBlogger40125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-15411329297027915922015-05-22T04:48:48.908-07:002015-05-22T04:48:48.908-07:00VR: "Why Ridicule and Debate don't mix .....<b>VR:</b> "<i>Why Ridicule and Debate don't mix ...</i>"<br /><br />What I find more interesting (and more important) is that intellectual dishonesty and "debate" don't mix (*).<br /><br /><br />(*) and, at least as interesting, the fact that you insist upon not knowing this factIlíonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15339406092961816142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-14087603270212313672015-05-18T12:45:25.454-07:002015-05-18T12:45:25.454-07:00If ridicule is a viable method, then it's a vi...If ridicule is a viable method, then it's a viable method for everyone. If not, then it's bad for everyone. All I ask for is fairness.Victor Repperthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10962948073162156902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-69433920537686883602015-05-17T07:32:35.192-07:002015-05-17T07:32:35.192-07:00Did anybody notice Loftus' remarks to Bradley ...Did anybody notice Loftus' remarks to Bradley Bowen, who is certainly NOT a Christian? You see, John wants us to believe this highground nonsense, that it's okay to say whatever you can to get Christians to become atheists - and I actually believe that John really believes he believes this. However, the evidence suggests John is deluded, because he doesn't reserve his mockery, insults and ire for Christians. No! He'll gladly dish it out on another atheist - like Bowen - for apparently trivial things.<br /><br />So, John, what's the *real* reason you resort to defensive name-calling when challenged? Could it be, like I suggest, that you just *might* actually be an intellectual wimp?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-42245116814668552262015-05-17T06:52:56.953-07:002015-05-17T06:52:56.953-07:00And unlike Lowder I think genuine inquiry begins t...<b>And unlike Lowder I think genuine inquiry begins the day people reject faith-based answers, not before. Until inquirers do this they fail to have a reliable method for knowing the truth about existence, the nature of nature, or which religion is true if there is one. </b><br /><br />John, you are betraying your own calls for evidence-based reasoning, right here. You did not give any evidence whatsoever for your claims about faith. Certainly, you don't expect me to take your claims <i>about faith <b>on faith</b></i>, do you?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-89638965903552930342015-05-17T06:50:56.458-07:002015-05-17T06:50:56.458-07:00LOFTUS -
I would love a chance to reason with you...LOFTUS -<br /><br />I would love a chance to reason with you. How might a guy like me get such an opportunity?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-63193341769678558592015-05-16T23:11:59.115-07:002015-05-16T23:11:59.115-07:00John Loftus: "I said in front of them, "...<b>John Loftus:</b> "<i>I said in front of them, "There is no devil and no hell. Stop threatening your daughter. Just teach her to love and obey without these delusional threats."</i><br /><br /><b>Malcolm:</b> <i>"Stop bullying your daughter" is one thing. "Everything your parents teach you about life is a lie" goes well over the line and is wildly inappropriate, as well as totally unnecessary to say. <br /><br />Not to mention hotly contested, and you blurting it out as if it's a decided fact is helping nobody.</i>"<br /><br />Let's <i>translate</i> what Loftus says he said: "<i>I said in front of them, "There is no [Heaven or Hell -- there is no "Permanent Record", there are no eternal consequences to what one chooses to do here-and-now. Plus, when one dies, one ceases to exist, as though one had never been]. Stop [teaching] your daughter [that her choices have permanent-and-eternal consequenses; stop teaching her that her choices *matter*]. Just teach her to love and obey without these [warnings that loving and obeying has one set of consequences, and that hating and disobeying has a different set of consequenses]"</i><br /><br />Isn't he demanding that parents teach their children to "love and obey" (what, precisely?) while not actually teaching them anything, except that nothing they choose to do matters anyway? <br />Ilíonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15339406092961816142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-60590213404411927602015-05-16T22:54:24.331-07:002015-05-16T22:54:24.331-07:00B.Consistency.Please: "Ilion, "telling i...<b>B.Consistency.Please:</b> "<i>Ilion, "telling it like it is" is not ridicule. Ridicule is intentional bullying - verbal violence meant to cause pain (and not in a good way). I agree completely that calling out a fool is fair game, but in my books, that is not "ridicule" - it's just being honest.</i>"<br /><br />Ah, so -- just as I have always maintained and sometimes defended with argument -- when *I* "tell it like it is" and/or "call out a fools", I'm not being a mean ol' bully, after all, despite that many, including you, have said over the years that I am.<br /><br /><br />For instance, while I disagree in varying degrees with his primary statements and reasoning --<br /><br /><b>brownmamba:</b> "<i>I haven't read this whole discussion, but I just wanted to say that being unpleasant( using vitriolic ridicule and bullying), really undermines the goal of getting people to appreciate or understand your point. People just get defensive and then have a psychological motivation to resist what you're saying. They'll resist persuasion to a much greater extend when their ego has been attacked. That's why I resist making snarky comments even though I sometimes would like to.<br /><br />Loftus has books to sell, so there's a monetary incentive for him to be snarky (more respectful writing isn't as entertaining). As for other unpleasant bloggers, they likely care more about showing off their intelligence than actually persuading people. As an atheist I appreciate bloggers like Victor who often give me something to think about without attacking my character or my intelligence.</i>"<br /><br />Don't you think it odd that no one ever seems to recognize that the *attitude* 'brownmamba' display is quite opposite to that displayed by 'Wizard Suth' (and John Loftus, and Edward Babinski, and JJ Lowder and The Two Nameless Ones on and on)? Don't you think it odd that no one ever wants to recognize that when I "ridicule" (quotes since it now seems I don't ridicule, after all) people's behavior and attitude, it's because they have <i>earned</i> it.<br /><br />Then, to use a concrete example not connected to me -- the reader may recall a few days ago that JJL posted a link to his collection of (in his opinion) good (which I take to mean 'strong', rather than self-disemboweling) anti-theistic arguments. Then, Ben Yachov replied that many of them were "moronic". Then JJL started whining about the mean ol' Christians picking on him (you know, like they always do).<br /><br />But, the thing is, that list of (alleged) arguments, even if he originated every one of them himself, is not *him*.<br /><br />My point is: much, perhaps most, of the constant whinging about "tone" or "civility" is just this sort of passive-aggressive hypocrisy.Ilíonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15339406092961816142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-71859730073541974582015-05-16T20:47:16.888-07:002015-05-16T20:47:16.888-07:00I haven't read this whole discussion, but I ju...I haven't read this whole discussion, but I just wanted to say that being unpleasant( using vitriolic ridicule and bullying), really undermines the goal of getting people to appreciate or understand your point. People just get defensive and then have a psychological motivation to resist what you're saying. They'll resist persuasion to a much greater extend when their ego has been attacked. That's why I resist making snarky comments even though I sometimes would like to.<br /><br />Loftus has books to sell, so there's a monetary incentive for him to be snarky (more respectful writing isn't as entertaining). As for other unpleasant bloggers, they likely care more about showing off their intelligence than actually persuading people. As an atheist I appreciate bloggers like Victor who often give me something to think about without attacking my character or my intelligence. brownmambahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18287697930269397080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-20117149950504453022015-05-16T19:54:41.321-07:002015-05-16T19:54:41.321-07:00By the way, I don't for a second believe Loftu...By the way, I don't for a second believe Loftus's imaginary encounter with the family at the restaurant. It's possible (but even this I doubt) that he had some sort of exchange with the parents, but his telling of it is an obvious fabrication. I truly believe that he's telling us a conversation he had with himself in his head.B. Prokophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10548980245078214688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-13570855519318031392015-05-16T19:49:25.136-07:002015-05-16T19:49:25.136-07:00"In trying to invent the “principle” that rid..."<i>In trying to invent the “principle” that ridicule is *always* wicked, you make yourselves ridiculous.</i>"<br /><br />Ilion, "telling it like it is" is <i>not</i> ridicule. Ridicule is intentional bullying - verbal violence meant to cause pain (and not in a good way). I agree completely that calling out a fool is fair game, but in my books, that is not "ridicule" - it's just being honest.<br /><br /><i>Jezu ufam tobie!</i>B. Prokophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10548980245078214688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-17039295580120956172015-05-16T19:19:16.062-07:002015-05-16T19:19:16.062-07:00Loftus is an intellectual wimp. And I'm not sa...Loftus is an intellectual wimp. And I'm not saying that for shock value. If you challenge his sloppy arguments and call him out, he'll get defensive and ban you for "trolling" or some other trumped up charge.<br /><br />And his minions are the worst. Articulett... I remember those days. Never going back!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-69834337205854269962015-05-16T19:04:41.876-07:002015-05-16T19:04:41.876-07:00Also,
Cheers
I always hated when people act faux...Also,<br /><br /><i>Cheers</i><br /><br />I always hated when people act faux-polite to make themselves feel better.<br /><br />This reminds me of the person who wrote a long anti-conservative hate screed on my blog, then ended it by saying that she didn't hate conservatives. She only pitied them!<br /><br />Contempt and pity are not the same. John, nothing Victor ever does will get you to respect him, because as comments like that tellingly show, you actually hold him in contempt.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-44454099774918708262015-05-16T19:00:45.592-07:002015-05-16T19:00:45.592-07:00John,
I said in front of them, "There is no ...John,<br /><br /><i>I said in front of them, "There is no devil and no hell. Stop threatening your daughter. Just teach her to love and obey without these delusional threats."</i><br /><br />"Stop bullying your daughter" is one thing. "Everything your parents teach you about life is a lie" goes well over the line and is wildly inappropriate, as well as totally unnecessary to say. <br /><br />Not to mention hotly contested, and you blurting it out as if it's a decided fact is helping nobody.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-34137798493815491882015-05-16T15:16:03.516-07:002015-05-16T15:16:03.516-07:00Have *any* of you "ridicule is intrinsically ...Have *any* of you "ridicule is <i>intrinsically</i> wicked" weenies ever bothered to *read* the Bible or the early Fathers?<br /><br />Ridicule is sometimes wicked and sometimes not.<br /><br />In trying to invent the “principle” that ridicule is *always* wicked, you make yourselves ridiculous.Ilíonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15339406092961816142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-18159943965677956892015-05-16T14:03:59.620-07:002015-05-16T14:03:59.620-07:00John,
From the last two responses it looks like I...John,<br /><br /><i>From the last two responses it looks like I have the answer to my last question, and the reason why this blog has so few intelligent commenters and followers.</i><br /><br />The tone of conversation here has improved markedly since removing two of your 'fans', John. Meanwhile, you advertise your own site as, basically, hate-and-ridicule central.<br /><br /><i>IF YOU WANT A REASONABLE DISCUSSION BY MORE PEOPLE then you must take a step back by banning a few uneducated unintelligent and obnoxious people.</i><br /><br />Because if there's one thing John Loftus knows about, it's how to promote a reasonable discussion among intelligent people? You just defended the very practice of ridiculing, mocking and belittling people who disagree with you as necessary to get them to change their minds, because your arguments aren't up to the task.<br /><br />You seriously think you still have credibility as 'someone who can advise on how to promote reasonable discussion'? This before mentioning your history of attacking people anonymous through fake blogs?<br /><br /><i>I'd understand if you did, since they buffer you from defending your initial arguments.</i><br /><br />The funny thing is, John, that I disagree with Victor - and holy hell, everyone else - on a regular basis, theist and atheist alike. Often it's cordial (Dan Gillson, Victor). Other times, it's more heated (Bob Prokop, etc.) Still other times, I just laugh at people for their dishonesty (Plagiarists, etc.) <br /><br />You, however? You can't defend yourself from criticism. Which is precisely why you demand bannings, and flee the scene when you don't get your critics restrained.<br /><br />Like I said, John. For you to ridicule theists, you typically need to lie about them, misrepresent them, and namecall. All I have to do to ridicule you is be very honest and speak the facts about what you've said and done.<br /><br />Don't you think a little introspection is called for?Crudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04178390947423928444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-1977799325278585152015-05-16T13:29:38.237-07:002015-05-16T13:29:38.237-07:00"by banning a few uneducated unintelligent an..."<i>by banning a few uneducated unintelligent and obnoxious people</i>"<br /><br />And just who might those people be, John?B. Prokophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10548980245078214688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-90777238900136747392015-05-16T13:17:26.028-07:002015-05-16T13:17:26.028-07:00From the last two responses it looks like I have t...From the last two responses it looks like I have the answer to my last question, and the reason why this blog has so few intelligent commenters and followers. Vic, IF YOU WANT A REASONABLE DISCUSSION BY MORE PEOPLE then you must take a step back by banning a few uneducated unintelligent and obnoxious people. It's up to you if you reject the antecedent though. I'd understand if you did, since they buffer you from defending your initial arguments.<br /><br />CheersJohn W. Loftushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07167826997171207256noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-76174719712712700542015-05-16T10:54:40.228-07:002015-05-16T10:54:40.228-07:00Sheesh, yet anoother example of attributing to me ...<i>Sheesh, yet anoother example of attributing to me something I eschew. </i><br /><br />"According to U.S. Legal Definitions, Cyber-bullying could be limited to posting rumors or gossips about a person in the internet bringing about hatred in other’s minds; or it may go to the extent of personally identifying victims and publishing materials severely defaming and humiliating them.”"<br /><br />Uh, what do you call launching a fake blog where you personally attacked one of your critics, then called attention to it as if it wasn't you - obviously trying to attack someone by proxy?<br /><br />Posting rumors or gossip about a person to bring hatred in others' minds? Check.<br /><br />Defamation? Check.<br /><br />When you say 'eschew', do you realize you're going to be judged by your actions as well as your words?Crudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04178390947423928444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-62463334849452134762015-05-16T10:49:10.136-07:002015-05-16T10:49:10.136-07:00"Is there anyone here who can reason with me?..."<i>Is there anyone here who can reason with me?</i>"<br /><br />Takes two to "reason together", John. So far, you've given no indication you're willing to hold up your end.<br /><br /><a href="https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4143/4894888875_42b603681f_b.jpg" rel="nofollow">"The Heavens Declare..."</a>B. Prokophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10548980245078214688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-90925205652406311242015-05-16T10:38:31.255-07:002015-05-16T10:38:31.255-07:00“Cyberbullying is the use of information technolog...“Cyberbullying is the use of information technology to repeatedly harm or harass other people in a deliberate manner. According to U.S. Legal Definitions, Cyber-bullying could be limited to posting rumors or gossips about a person in the internet bringing about hatred in other’s minds; or it may go to the extent of personally identifying victims and publishing materials severely defaming and humiliating them.”<br /><br />--------------<br /><br />Sheesh, yet anoother example of attributing to me something I eschew. <br /><br />Is there anyone here who can reason with me?John W. Loftushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07167826997171207256noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-71505788670564908072015-05-16T10:38:13.773-07:002015-05-16T10:38:13.773-07:00Then don't ever ridicule anyone for anything b...<i>Then don't ever ridicule anyone for anything because they may kill themselves! And don't watch any comedians or late night talk show hosts, or any movies ridiculing the thoughts and behaviors of others. </i><br /><br />Do you forget, Loftus, that the entire backdrop of this conversation was you whining and crying and demanding people be kicked off of Victor's blog because they were ridiculing you?<br /><br />But when it gets pointed out what kind of behavior you tolerate on your blog, what kind of behavior you engage in, you suddenly turn around and defend ridicule.<br /><br />That, little man, is called 'being a hypocrite'. The fact that you are so clueless that you can't see this - or that you think others can't see it - is one of the reasons why you are third-rate, and always have been.<br /><br /><i>Bullying can be in the eye of the beholder. I'm sure most Muslims think it's bullying for people to draw cartoons of Mohammed. </i><br /><br />Then man up, stop whining, and stop throwing tantrums whenever you're ridiculed. Because you are on record as endorsing ridicule - it's not my fault that so many others do it better than you. That's a failing on your part - you know, along with the history of lying, like putting up a fake blog to attack your opponents, futzing about dishonestly with Amazon, and...<br /><br />Gee, I wonder if "Look at this thing I said to these parents!" will eventually register as yet another lie?<br /><br />Wait, hold on, let me guess: Lying is acceptable to get what you want too.<br /><br />Right John?<br /><br />By the by:<br /><br />What if you said to the parents: "Bullying is in the eye of the beholder. If ridiculing her is the only way to get her to do what you want and believe what you think is best, then do so. Because getting what you want is what's important."<br /><br />Would you be shocked if anyone thought you were anything but a sadsack for giving out such advice?<br /><br /><i>I'm addressing your particular arguments here. They are lame, lacking basic understanding and consistency, without the principle of charity you say you admire so much. </i><br /><br />No, you're not addressing any arguments. You're special pleading like a madman, justifying your use of ridicule, right after crying like a freshly-punched bully about how people ridicule you.<br /><br />You know why I ridicule you, John? It's not just because you're immune to reason, though that's certainly the case. It's not because it's easy, despite that too being the case.<br /><br />I ridicule you because you are a would-be bully who happily ridicules others, and who has a track record of lying and general dishonesty.<br /><br />That's the difference between you and me, Loftus. You ridicule others by calling them names, by lying about what they believe, by misrepresenting their arguments.<br /><br />You know how I ridicule you?<br /><br />By answering your 'arguments' and telling the objective truth about you.<br /><br />Isn't it sad that that's all it takes to make you look bad?Crudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04178390947423928444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-48804393770697496082015-05-16T10:08:36.031-07:002015-05-16T10:08:36.031-07:00"And I'm sick of being told ridicule is n..."<i>And I'm sick of being told ridicule is not justified.</i>"<br /><br />Well then, prepare to retch. <b>Ridicule is not justified!</b><br /><br />"<i>Bullying in High School comes with physical threats, kids spitting on others, threatening them with harm.</i>"<br /><br />Seriously? You've never heard of <a href="http://nobullying.com/six-unforgettable-cyber-bullying-cases/" rel="nofollow">cyberbullying</a>? No physical threats there - just six dead kids. You need to get out of your box and into the Real World, dude!<br /><br />"<i>They are lame, lacking basic understanding and consistency, without the principle of charity you say you admire so much.</i>"<br /><br />Looking in the mirror? (And that's not ridicule. It's an honest question.)<br /><br /><i>Jezu ufam tobie!</i>B. Prokophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10548980245078214688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-56755514379471488642015-05-16T09:56:41.685-07:002015-05-16T09:56:41.685-07:00Vic: when we address arguments, and we aren't ...Vic: <i>when we address arguments, and we aren't persauded by yours, you question-beggingly say that we won't listen to reason, and therefore other tactics are justified.</i><br /><br />I'm addressing your particular arguments here. They are lame, lacking basic understanding and consistency, without the principle of charity you say you admire so much. <br /><br />It's like I'm dealing with High Schoolers who lack an education.<br /><br />Or, you can show me differently. That's how I feel whenever dealing with you and the others here. <br /><br />I get you don't like me saying this. I get that.John W. Loftushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07167826997171207256noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-62267595193607736532015-05-16T09:51:09.903-07:002015-05-16T09:51:09.903-07:00And I'm sick of being told ridicule is not jus...And I'm sick of being told ridicule is not justified.John W. Loftushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07167826997171207256noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-46212054817473665532015-05-16T09:49:28.979-07:002015-05-16T09:49:28.979-07:00Bullying can be in the eye of the beholder. I'...Bullying can be in the eye of the beholder. I'm sure most Muslims think it's bullying for people to draw cartoons of Mohammed. <br /><br />Bullying in High School comes with physical threats, kids spitting on others, threatening them with harm. <br /><br />Bullying by the use of ridicule and satire is a horse of a different color. John W. Loftushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07167826997171207256noreply@blogger.com