tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post7958231451745744056..comments2024-03-28T12:34:14.649-07:00Comments on dangerous idea: What might undermine evangelical support for TrumpVictor Repperthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10962948073162156902noreply@blogger.comBlogger68125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-2049246483298950512018-04-06T14:03:39.666-07:002018-04-06T14:03:39.666-07:00https://www.salon.com/2018/04/05/have-christian-na...https://www.salon.com/2018/04/05/have-christian-nationalists-staged-a-soft-coup-with-trump-as-their-figurehead/<br /><br /><br />I'm not sure I buy this analysis in toto but it does somewhat explain the peculiar relationship between Trump and the Evangelicals. jdhueyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14548783175350394626noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-26720349878355825982018-03-30T14:26:58.648-07:002018-03-30T14:26:58.648-07:00One Brow: "If you care to do the research, th...<i>One Brow: "If you care to do the research, there is plenty there."<br /><br />"Interesting that you think people are convinced by evidence."<br /><br />I'm having difficulty reconciling these two thoughts. </i><br /><br />Me too. Ultimately, humans are convinced by the emotional response, evidence can at best prepare them to be convinced. Very rarely, a person can detach themself enough from a topic that evidence alone is sufficient. However, I am appreciative that you are willing to do some more reading.One Browhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11938816242512563561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-35693845812890341562018-03-30T01:08:24.055-07:002018-03-30T01:08:24.055-07:00One Brow: "If you care to do the research, t...One Brow: "If you care to do the research, there is plenty there."<br /><br />"Interesting that you think people are convinced by evidence."<br /><br />I'm having difficulty reconciling these two thoughts. <br /><br />I will read the resource you cited.Kevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02593005679430527458noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-21557108372317615782018-03-29T22:13:03.869-07:002018-03-29T22:13:03.869-07:00Legion of Logic: Certainly, and it's not as th...Legion of Logic: Certainly, and it's not as though the Catholics (and Orthodox) don't have plenty of scandals of their own. In this particular case, either of those two Churches has a sort of visible and practical unity which Protestant or others lack, and so, to that extent, do not contribute to scandals of unity to the same degree (of course, it takes two to refuse to tango!). Now Protestants would rightly point out that unity in matters of error is not something to be desired... which just goes to show why crying "scandal" is not always helpful, and can in fact backfire.<br /><br />As to the issue itself, I think the solution must be to "be deep in history", to use Newman's phrase; his <i><a href="http://www.newmanreader.org/works/apologia65/index.html" rel="nofollow">Apologia pro Vita Sua</a></i> is worth reading. (That is, the underlying question is where the authority of the Church lay (or continues to lie in the present day), and questions of individual teachings or practices are separate matters.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-10852401123745615822018-03-29T16:14:01.409-07:002018-03-29T16:14:01.409-07:00Did you read what I wrote?
Yes. Did you think s...<i>Did you read what I wrote? </i><br /><br />Yes. Did you think some part was misunderstood or overlooked? If so, I will be happy to look at it again.<br /><br /><i>I suspect at this point it doesn't matter, since you are apparently convinced you know my motivations. People who see racism under every rock are very hard to deal with rationally.</i><br /><br />Racism has little to do with your motivations, and it is not under every rock; it's easily visible and out in the open to those who care to see it.<br /><br /><i>The subsequent manner in which you elaborate on this claim is impossible to refute even in principle, so I'm not too interested in attempting. However, I suspect many/most conservative black people would disagree that the problem is as extensive as you assert. </i><br /><br />I can also find people who deny the earth is round. There is a reason black conservatives are almost as rare as flat earthers.<br /><br /><i>I would need some very compelling evidence to believe otherwise. </i><br /><br />If you care to do the research, there is plenty there. <br /><br /><i>Preemptive statement on my part, obviously racism exists, but I have seen no evidence that it permeates literally every facet of black people's lives. I'm calling BS on that one without seeing evidence that would convince a conservative black person that they can't even marry without encountering racism.</i><br /><br />Interesting that you think people are convinced by evidence.<br /><br /><i>I'll need some convincing that you are capable of objectivity toward Obama before I waste my time answering (though a quick Google search demonstrates my point). </i><br /><br />To you, I am sure it does.<br /><br /><i>Your characterization of my multiple Cone quotes as a single quote from Wright meant to discredit Obama indicates you are just a little too defensive of him for me to have an Obama discussion with. That is never productive when I attempt it.</i><br /><br />I didn't say it was a quote from Wright, I said it was "chosen with an agenda to discredit Obama via Jeremiah Wright".<br /><br />However, you are correct that I should not judge. How did you first come across that quote, and considering the full context of it, why did you think it mattered to this conversation?One Browhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11938816242512563561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-32573036305829158712018-03-29T16:13:37.085-07:002018-03-29T16:13:37.085-07:00It's also easier to make assertions than to li...<i>It's also easier to make assertions than to link material demonstrating your case. Do you have a recommendation?</i><br /><br />I quoted from <b>Black Power and Black Theology</b>, using the free online preview. <br /><br /><i>Not if both are asserted without evidence by people who know nothing about me.</i><br /><br />So, you understand that when people call you (or me) a racist, it's not about what you feel? That it is not a claim you are a bigot?<br /><br /><i>Apparently not being racist doesn't count. </i><br /><br />See, just above, you said that there was no difference between being a racist and supporting a racist power structure. Now, you are saying there is a difference. When you make up your mind on that, it will be easier to use terminology in a way you can understand.<br /><br /><i>What precisely am I expected to do that would fall under "dismantling the racist power structure"? </i><br /><br />I don't know enough about your life to say more than it needs to be active and regular, as opposed to passive and rare. Perhaps you could talk to some local organizations, some coworkers, etc., if you want to try.<br /><br /><i>Also, I don't care if idiots call me racist, but their irrational mindset should be taken into consideration when I distinguish them as friendly or hostile to me, as it were.</i><br /><br />Why would you think you were important enough to rate being hostile to?<br /><br /><i>So all of my quotes are a single mined quote meant to discredit Obama? </i><br /><br />The one quote you gave as saying racism was the dominant tenet certainly was. When researching it, I saw it on a few websites talking about Jeremiah Wright, and how Obama going to his church was a bad sign for America. You offered it with no context, and gave it a meaning that, in context, it did not have (as my larger quote should have shown you).<br /><br />However, if you came across the quote in a different context, that is relevant. Where did you find the quote, and why did you choose that one?<br /><br />At any rate, which of your other Cone quotes do you think show hostility to you?<br /><b>It is the affirmation of black humanity that emancipates black people from white racism, thus providing authentic freedom for both white and black people. It affirms the humanity of white people in that it says "no" to the encroachment of white oppression.<br /><br />The black man’s response to God’s act in Christ must be different from the white’s because his life experiences are different.<br /><br />Life-giving power for the poor and the oppressed is the primary criterion that we must use to judge the adequacy of our theology, not abstract concepts</b>One Browhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11938816242512563561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-16248572692385058522018-03-29T15:28:13.268-07:002018-03-29T15:28:13.268-07:00One Brow: "You are free to assume anything y...One Brow: "You are free to assume anything you like. It's easier than looking up the works and reading them."<br /><br />It's also easier to make assertions than to link material demonstrating your case. Do you have a recommendation?<br /><br /><br />"Is there a difference between being told you are a racist and being told you are supporting a racist power structure?"<br /><br />Not if both are asserted without evidence by people who know nothing about me.<br /><br /><br />"Have you done anything to help dismantle the racist power structure?"<br /><br />Apparently not being racist doesn't count. What precisely am I expected to do that would fall under "dismantling the racist power structure"? Also, I don't care if idiots call me racist, but their irrational mindset should be taken into consideration when I distinguish them as friendly or hostile to me, as it were.<br /><br />"Perhaps you should try digging deeper than a single mined quote, chosen with an agenda to discredit Obama via Jeremiah Wright?"<br /><br />So all of my quotes are a single mined quote meant to discredit Obama? Did you read what I wrote? I suspect at this point it doesn't matter, since you are apparently convinced you know my motivations. People who see racism under every rock are very hard to deal with rationally.<br /><br /><br />"Racism is always a factor in the life of a black person"<br /><br />The subsequent manner in which you elaborate on this claim is impossible to refute even in principle, so I'm not too interested in attempting. However, I suspect many/most conservative black people would disagree that the problem is as extensive as you assert. I would need some very compelling evidence to believe otherwise. Preemptive statement on my part, obviously racism exists, but I have seen no evidence that it permeates literally every facet of black people's lives. I'm calling BS on that one without seeing evidence that would convince a conservative black person that they can't even marry without encountering racism.<br /><br /><br />"For example?"<br /><br />I'll need some convincing that you are capable of objectivity toward Obama before I waste my time answering (though a quick Google search demonstrates my point). Your characterization of my multiple Cone quotes as a single quote from Wright meant to discredit Obama indicates you are just a little too defensive of him for me to have an Obama discussion with. That is never productive when I attempt it.Kevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02593005679430527458noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-4955981819252689212018-03-29T06:04:25.334-07:002018-03-29T06:04:25.334-07:00And it appears that the added racism is the domina...<i>And it appears that the added racism is the dominant tenet, the reason to be BLT and not, say, Assembly of God. If you have information otherwise, I'll certainly look it over. </i><br /><br />I see it as a distinguishing tenet, as opposed to a dominating one.<br /><br /><i>Speaking of other information, here is another quote from the founder of the BLT movement, James Cone: ""Theologically, Malcolm X was not far wrong when he called the white man 'the devil.'" I suspect Cone has/had a few issues that influenced the theology.</i><br /><br />If liberation is key to Christianity, then the quote is understandable. Oppressors (intentional or otherwise) are blocking Christian values. With more context:<br /><br /><b>The demonic forces of racism are real for the black man. Theologically, Malcolm X was not far wrong when he called the white man "the devil." The white structure of this American society, personified in every racist, must be at least part of what the new Testament meant by demonic forces. </b><br /><br />A little further down:<br /><br /><b>Therefore, when blacks assert their freedom in self-determination, whites to are liberated.</b><br /><br /><i>I would assume they are referring to the viewing of the world through the lens of oppressor vs oppressed, power dynamics, class struggle, etc. Cone was not a stranger to Marxist theory.</i><br /><br />You are free to assume anything you like. It's easier than looking up the works and reading them.<br /><br /><i>Being told I'm a racist and part of the problem because I'm white does tend to make me an unreliable ally to such people. </i><br /><br />Is there a difference between being told you are a racist and being told you are supporting a racist power structure? Have you done anything to help dismantle the racist power structure?<br /><br /><i>It's unlikely I'd be welcome at one of their congregations anyway.</i><br /><br />If you came to listen and learn, I think you be very welcome at most congregations.<br /><br /><i>That could be the case, but a denomination that is one step from considering fellow brothers in Christ "the devil" because they have a lighter shade of skin is a problematic denomination, at best. Unless the founder of the denomination has no influence to the churches within? Is judging people based on their skin color not a central part of the doctrine? </i><br /><br />I don't see such judgment in the parts of <b>Black Power and Black Theology</b> I've read. Perhaps you should try digging deeper than a single mined quote, chosen with an agenda to discredit Obama via Jeremiah Wright?<br /><br /><i>What are these consequences of which you speak? Being declared a racist and oppressor by people who don't know me? </i><br /><br />Why are you so worried about what other people call you? I always found it amusing when people called me a racist.<br /><br /><i>And I believe the quotes speak for themselves about the racial lens through which the doctrine is interpreted, rather than the other way around. Yes, all Christians do this at one point or another without even realizing it, but BLT requires it.</i><br /><br />Well, maintaining that belief is certainly easier than looking at the source material, and reading the quotes in context.<br /><br /><i>You took a statement that is referring to individual instances in which racism was not a factor, and responded as if it was referring to a larger picture of society. </i><br /><br />Racism is always a factor in the life of a black person. It touches who they marry, their educations; what jobs they can get; how they are treated by police, store clerks, people walking down the street, etc.; where they can live, the type of credit they qualify for, basically everything. If you don't understand that, you're really not qualified to criticize Cone's position.<br /><br /><i>Obviously racism exists, but not in every instance in which Obama or other progressives claim it exists.</i><br /><br />For example?One Browhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11938816242512563561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-66425558836711141022018-03-28T14:22:59.732-07:002018-03-28T14:22:59.732-07:00I encountered liberation theology in seminary. The...I encountered liberation theology in seminary. There are different degrees to which it can be taken. One of my church history professors, Justo Gonzalez, was into liberation theology, but seemed quite thoroughly Christian in his theology. But the Catholic Church, under John Paul and Cardinal Ratzinger, came down hard on it. <br />Victor Repperthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10962948073162156902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-22111883318547341652018-03-28T12:28:40.407-07:002018-03-28T12:28:40.407-07:00One Brow: "In my experience, the theme of li...One Brow: "In my experience, the theme of liberation from sin/threat of hell/etc. is central to almost all Christian denominations, and this just adds racism to that list."<br /><br />And it appears that the added racism is the dominant tenet, the reason to be BLT and not, say, Assembly of God. If you have information otherwise, I'll certainly look it over. Speaking of other information, here is another quote from the founder of the BLT movement, James Cone: ""Theologically, Malcolm X was not far wrong when he called the white man 'the devil.'" I suspect Cone has/had a few issues that influenced the theology.<br /><br /><br />"By contrast, your link discusses the tendencies to Marxist themes, and I am not aware of significant Marxist tendencies in black liberation theology."<br /><br />I would assume they are referring to the viewing of the world through the lens of oppressor vs oppressed, power dynamics, class struggle, etc. Cone was not a stranger to Marxist theory.<br /><br /><br />"I am sure you have chosen a church that is minimally involved with the black racial identity, as that clearly does not speak to you."<br /><br />Being told I'm a racist and part of the problem because I'm white does tend to make me an unreliable ally to such people. It's unlikely I'd be welcome at one of their congregations anyway.<br /><br /><br />"From the services I have attended and the videos I have seen, there is a central focus on Christ in black liberation churches."<br /><br />That could be the case, but a denomination that is one step from considering fellow brothers in Christ "the devil" because they have a lighter shade of skin is a problematic denomination, at best. Unless the founder of the denomination has no influence to the churches within? Is judging people based on their skin color not a central part of the doctrine? <br /><br /><br />"I can only conclude that the reason you don't see the centrality of Christ in the quotes you provided from Cone is a distaste for the political consequences of black liberation."<br /><br />What are these consequences of which you speak? Being declared a racist and oppressor by people who don't know me? And I believe the quotes speak for themselves about the racial lens through which the doctrine is interpreted, rather than the other way around. Yes, all Christians do this at one point or another without even realizing it, but BLT requires it.<br /><br /><br />One Brow: "Your statement that Obama was "likely seeing racism where it doesn't exist", as if such a place/condition existed, provides further proof that you are blind to the reality here."<br /><br />You took a statement that is referring to individual instances in which racism was not a factor, and responded as if it was referring to a larger picture of society. Obviously racism exists, but not in every instance in which Obama or other progressives claim it exists. Kevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02593005679430527458noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-12828305313401595742018-03-28T09:19:26.120-07:002018-03-28T09:19:26.120-07:00Much like conservative and progressive Christians ...<i>Much like conservative and progressive Christians who distort their own faith with their political views, Black Liberation Theology looks to be using Christianity as a tool for another agenda. Christ does not seem primary, but rather decrying oppressors and racism (and likely seeing racism where it doesn't exist, which causes other problems and is one of the reasons I disliked Obama, but that's a digression). <br /><br />It seems to me that the only reason one would choose a BT church over any other church would be the emphasis on racial identity and left-wing identity politics and social power dynamics over Christian identity. If Christ is not primary, it's Christian-themed at best.</i><br /><br />In my experience, the theme of liberation from sin/threat of hell/etc. is central to almost all Christian denominations, and this just adds racism to that list. By contrast, your link discusses the tendencies to Marxist themes, and I am not aware of significant Marxist tendencies in black liberation theology.<br /><br />I agree that one would choose a church based on its speaking to one's identity. I am sure you have chosen a church that is minimally involved with the black racial identity, as that clearly does not speak to you. Most Catholics I knew chose the mass they attended, in part, based on the atmosphere and the priest they felt spoke to them. That does not mean their services were centered on something other than Christ. From the services I have attended and the videos I have seen, there is a central focus on Christ in black liberation churches.<br /><br />Based on what you have typed, I can only conclude that the reason you don't see the centrality of Christ in the quotes you provided from Cone is a distaste for the political consequences of black liberation. Your statement that Obama was "likely seeing racism where it doesn't exist", as if such a place/condition existed, provides further proof that you are blind to the reality here.One Browhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11938816242512563561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-17695070401205468872018-03-28T06:36:49.707-07:002018-03-28T06:36:49.707-07:00Starhopper: "Legion, are you familiar with s...Starhopper: "Legion, are you familiar with soon-to-be canonized Archbishop Oscar Romero, who was a leading advocate for liberation theology?"<br /><br />I am not, but I looked him up on Wikipedia (authoritative source, I know) and it seemed that he wasn't overly interested in the type of liberation theology that Black Liberation Theology belongs to. <br /><br />"According to Jesús Delgado, his biographer and Postulator of the Cause for his canonization, Romero agreed with the Catholic vision of Liberation Theology and not with the materialist vision: "A journalist once asked him: ‘Do you agree with Liberation Theology’ And Romero answered: "Yes, of course. However, there are two theologies of liberation. One is that which sees liberation only as material liberation. The other is that of Paul VI. I am with Paul VI."[31] Delgado said that Romero did not read the books on Liberation Theology which he received, and he gave the lowest priority to Liberation Theology among the topics that he studied."<br /><br />And this (I assume is authentic) guidance from the Vatican seems to also warn against that form of LT.<br /><br />http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19840806_theology-liberation_en.html<br />Kevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02593005679430527458noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-23269553695177351512018-03-28T06:29:42.081-07:002018-03-28T06:29:42.081-07:00One Brow,
It's not so much what they leave ou...One Brow,<br /><br />It's not so much what they leave out as what they add. Here are some quotes from some of their members, including the founder James Cone:<br /><br />"It's an attempt to teach people how to be both unapologetically black and Christian at the same time."<br /><br />"Black theology is a theology of black liberation. It seeks to plumb the black condition in the light of God's revelation in Jesus Christ, so that the black community can see that the Gospel is commensurate with the achievements of black humanity. Black theology is a theology of "blackness." It is the affirmation of black humanity that emancipates black people from white racism, thus providing authentic freedom for both white and black people. It affirms the humanity of white people in that it says "no" to the encroachment of white oppression."<br /><br />"It is evident, then, that the main difficulty which most whites have with Black Power and its relationship to the Christian gospel stems from their own inability to translate traditional theological language into the life situation of black people. The black man’s response to God’s act in Christ must be different from the white’s because his life experiences are different."<br /><br />"I still regard Jesus Christ today as the chief focus of my perspective on God but not to the exclusion of other religious perspectives. God's reality is not bound by one manifestation of the divine in Jesus but can be found wherever people are being empowered to fight for freedom. Life-giving power for the poor and the oppressed is the primary criterion that we must use to judge the adequacy of our theology, not abstract concepts.” <br /><br /><br />Much like conservative and progressive Christians who distort their own faith with their political views, Black Liberation Theology looks to be using Christianity as a tool for another agenda. Christ does not seem primary, but rather decrying oppressors and racism (and likely seeing racism where it doesn't exist, which causes other problems and is one of the reasons I disliked Obama, but that's a digression). <br /><br />It seems to me that the only reason one would choose a BT church over any other church would be the emphasis on racial identity and left-wing identity politics and social power dynamics over Christian identity. If Christ is not primary, it's Christian-themed at best. Kevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02593005679430527458noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-5005502488568716282018-03-28T06:29:38.058-07:002018-03-28T06:29:38.058-07:00"a Black Liberation Theology church, which I ..."<i>a Black Liberation Theology church, which I view at best as...loosely Christian?</i>"<br /><br />Legion, are you familiar with soon-to-be canonized Archbishop Oscar Romero, who was a leading advocate for liberation theology? <br /><br />Pictured as a Venn diagram, a circle labeled "Liberation Theology" would be entirely contained within a larger circle labeled "Christianity". There is no conflict between the two. Starhopperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18350334327301656588noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-89216427702173586742018-03-28T05:30:48.552-07:002018-03-28T05:30:48.552-07:00Black Liberation Theology church, which I view at ...<i> Black Liberation Theology church, which I view at best as...loosely Christian?</i><br /><br />Just out of curiosity, are there tenets of Christianity you see as being essential or central that are not a part of Black Liberation Theology?One Browhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11938816242512563561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-60911575291629080012018-03-28T02:36:15.456-07:002018-03-28T02:36:15.456-07:00I said Nixon and Johnson ans a Joke,I lived in the...I said Nixon and Johnson ans a Joke,I lived in the 60s no way I could say they did nothing wrong.,Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-88911218474351583922018-03-28T00:13:30.268-07:002018-03-28T00:13:30.268-07:00The obligatory post about the Resurrection for Eas...<br />The obligatory post about the Resurrection for Easter Sunday, But rather than go over the guards on the tomb one more time I examine the contribution Easter faith to modern notions of progress in History.<br /><br /><a href="http://metacrock.blogspot.com/2018/03/the-easter-faith-and-progress-in-history.html" rel="nofollow"><b>Metacrock's Blog</b></a>Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-84139272872121402992018-03-27T18:24:48.330-07:002018-03-27T18:24:48.330-07:00While I'm too jaded to be impressed by any pol...While I'm too jaded to be impressed by any politician singing in a church, I'll admit that my knowledge of Obama's relationship with Christianity never extended past his attendance of a Black Liberation Theology church, which I view at best as...loosely Christian? Kevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02593005679430527458noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-67577490642795004682018-03-27T16:32:40.994-07:002018-03-27T16:32:40.994-07:00Amazing Grace. 'Nuff said.<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IN05jVNBs64" rel="nofollow">Amazing Grace</a>. 'Nuff said.Starhopperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18350334327301656588noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-52024118594418594502018-03-27T16:28:03.636-07:002018-03-27T16:28:03.636-07:00Starhopper: "Barack Obama"
Based upon.....Starhopper: "Barack Obama"<br /><br />Based upon...? Because every prominent atheist I saw speak on the subject was certain Obama was an atheist. What did you observe that they (and I, for that matter) missed?Kevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02593005679430527458noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-89847947185710202312018-03-27T16:21:34.321-07:002018-03-27T16:21:34.321-07:00Mr Green: "anyone who calls himself Christia...Mr Green: "anyone who calls himself Christian and isn't Catholic or Orthodox is contributing to one of the greatest real scandals against the Faith."<br /><br />And Protestants believe Catholics are the single most damaging entity against Christianity. <br /><br />I myself believe that division is critically damaging to the faith, but while I'm always happy to read honest apologetics, to this day I have not read a convincing defense of the claim that the Catholic Church is the "true" church.<br /><br />Don't want to derail the thread, so if you happen to have a link to what you feel is a good defense of that claim, I'd be happy to read it.Kevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02593005679430527458noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-91133660523308899352018-03-27T16:18:35.386-07:002018-03-27T16:18:35.386-07:00"how about an actual, effective, sincere Chri..."<i>how about an actual, effective, sincere Christian leader? (Anyone know where we could get one of those??)</i>"<br /><br />Hmm... I would hazard a guess that the most sincerely Christian presidents we've had in my lifetime (which goes back to Truman) would be Jimmy Carter, George W Bush, and Barack Obama.<br /><br />So you can see there is no apparent correlation between one's faith and one's political leanings. You can be a sincere Christian and also be a Republican, Democrat, Libertarian, Green, Independent, or practically any of the European parties.Starhopperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18350334327301656588noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-26231398941720684772018-03-27T16:16:39.238-07:002018-03-27T16:16:39.238-07:00>> "the question is do they continue to...<i><br />>> "the question is do they continue to support a traitorous, pathological liar <br />>> who daily degrades our public discourse and who is using the office of the <br />>> presidency to line his own pockets and those of his family?"<br /><br />You are an expert in demagoguery. A real gem. Have you stopped beating your wife yet? If not, why not?</i><br /><br />It's fair enough to say that Trump is not traitorous (strictly speaking), nor is he personally using the office to line his own pockets (rather, his family is using the office to line Donald Trump's pockets and theirs).<br /><br />It's disingenuous to confuse a explicit description with an implied accusation.One Browhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11938816242512563561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-36177793510300076222018-03-27T15:32:45.444-07:002018-03-27T15:32:45.444-07:00>> "the question is do they continue to...>> "the question is do they continue to support a traitorous, pathological liar who daily degrades our public discourse and who is using the office of the presidency to line his own pockets and those of his family?"<br /><br />You are an expert in demagoguery. A real gem. Have you stopped beating your wife yet? If not, why not?<br /><br />Whoever this fictitious character is, I would not support that behavior. I don't support sinful behavior, remember? I do support sinful people carrying out various tasks and doing it imperfectly and in their own unique way. <br /><br />Does this mean I would demand this person leave the presidency? Maybe. I'd have to know the details and consider them. <br /><br />I can tell you that I didn't demand it when Obama was president, so my answer so far has been a consistent 'no'. There might come a time when I would change my answer.SteveKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00497892283006396471noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-28786018692544767112018-03-27T15:27:26.047-07:002018-03-27T15:27:26.047-07:00In theory, defending someone's actual bad acti...In theory, defending someone's actual bad actions can reflect poorly on Christianity by making it look as though all the rules are hypocritically only for "other people". In practice, it's hard to take seriously someone who evaluates major world religions based on partisan political squabbling on the Internet. Likewise for someone who thinks this a problem with "Trump" and not equally for Christians who support Clinton or Obama, or any side of any contentious cause anywhere.<br /><br />It's not just instincitve (and often petty) tribalism at work: people are provoked by the unfair (and also partisan) way they are attacked. Trust me, you will get different responses from saying, "Trump is a bad fellow, but voting is about gambling on the lesser of evils; how do you weigh the various issues?" vs. "Trump is a bad fellow, and since you voted for him YOU ARE A BAD PERSON TOO. IN FACT YOU'RE <b>BETRAYING THE CHRISTIAN FAITH ITSELF!!!"</b> Of course such accusations make people take it personally and get defensive.<br /><br />Trump, frankly, isn't a big deal. The attention he gets is (like his attention-span) loud but fleeting. If his immoral behaviour has any lasting effect at all, it will be a mild contribution to the momentum of what is already rotten in society. Certainly, the same people weren't rationalising Bill Clinton's behaviour the same way — but Clinton was president a <i>quarter century ago</i>. He's one of the stones that paved the way for making President Trump possible. And making excuses for "our guy" wasn't new then, or two thousand years ago.<br /><br />A much more serious problem is Christians who rationalise immorality on principle — who make excuses why fundamental teachings of the Christian faith across the centuries should not be taken seriously. They detract from Christianity by undermining its authority, promoting relativism, and making it appear officially hypocritical because the rules are only for "other centuries".<br /><br />So, for example, Christians who make excuses for abortion. Or same-sex "marriage". Or who defend their own various denominations — let's be honest: anyone who calls himself Christian and isn't Catholic or Orthodox is contributing to one of the greatest real scandals against the Faith. The Great Schism was bad enough, but the countless fractured denominations we have ended up with today are a genuine stumbling-block for some honest seekers in a way that political name-calling on Twitser just isn't.<br /><br />Getting upset at the perversity around Trump (his own and others') is confusing the symptom for the disease. The symptoms are genuinely unpleasant and worrisome, but the real problems, political, social, and religious, are rooted elsewhere. As for what would really undermine evangelicals' support for Trump — how about an actual, effective, sincere Christian leader? (Anyone know where we could get one of those??)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com