tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post7473200005232932444..comments2024-03-28T12:34:14.649-07:00Comments on dangerous idea: Ridicule is not an argument: responding to LoftusVictor Repperthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10962948073162156902noreply@blogger.comBlogger60125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-1696939738559018642010-09-07T12:32:20.476-07:002010-09-07T12:32:20.476-07:00OK, I've officially been banned from debunking...OK, I've officially been banned from debunking christianity. <br /><br />Loftus made some very strange and personal critical comments toward me, suggested I had "promised" to stop posting at his site (I would <i>never</i> make such a silly promise), and also lambasted me for refusing to show my real identity. Then he made some weird personal attacks about how I am a nobody, and he is somebody important. Sort of weird frankly, just awkward. He even started referring to me as a "she" as if that would be an insult.<br /><br />I had walked back into the seventh grade. Wow.<br /><br />My response at his site, where I discuss my real identity, among other things, was deleted, and I was banned from the site. <br /><br />I think he was mad that I <a href="http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2010/08/quote-of-day-by-michael.html?showComment=1283354829750#c2617545945567873836" rel="nofollow">called him out</a> for his childish behavior at Victor's site.Blue Devil Knighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12045468316613818510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-23891870449346564032010-09-04T19:51:39.726-07:002010-09-04T19:51:39.726-07:00Dunno if anyone is still following this discussion...Dunno if anyone is still following this discussion, but I want to comment again on ridicule and fair-mindedness.<br /><br />I think I judge people not just by their tone (whether they use ridicule or scorn, or whether they are courteous and humane), but also by whether they are arrogant or humble.<br /><br />Some people act as if they have certainty about things which remain unresolved, and, worse, sometimes they try to overpower you, not with evidence and arguments, but with confident statements of opinion sounding as if they are fact. They can seem impressive to people who are looking for someone authoritative to do their thinking for them, but a turn-off to more thoughtful people.<br /><br />Both believers and unbelievers can fall into this trap, though I am most critical of fellow believers because i think we should know better. I think to my shame I may have slipped into this at times, though now I consciously try to avoid it.<br /><br />Vic, of all religious and anti-religious protagonists I have come across on the web, you and James Hannam seem to me to most exemplify the qualities I respect, and avoid the pitfalls. On the unbelieving side, the Infidels seem to try hardest to be fair-minded.<br /><br />And so you are all the people I take most notice of.<br /><br />Best wishes.unkleEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12207729664951716799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-28842405310900588962010-09-04T16:52:52.891-07:002010-09-04T16:52:52.891-07:00"Well asked!” responded the All Powerful, “Ju...<i>"Well asked!” responded the All Powerful, “Just take a look at the continent of loudmouthed, arrogant tossers I’ve put right next to it!”</i><br /><br />As one of those loudmouthed, arrogant tossers who has just visited NZ for the first time, I think I agree with everything this story says about both countries. And I too laughed out loud!<br /><br />Interesting too, that Australia is probably a more secular country than NZ, and we currently have (though for how long?) an atheist Prime Minister, the previous two PMs, the current opposition leader and our current NSW Premier are all professing believers - out of all proportion to the percentages overall. Dunno why, but it seems secular Aussies still tend to elect professing christians.unkleEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12207729664951716799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-77341713021919670112010-08-31T20:03:56.694-07:002010-08-31T20:03:56.694-07:00Grev: good for you. When I read that blog I feel m...Grev: good for you. When I read that blog I feel my IQ drop. Such overconfidence reminds me of some of the freaky evangelicals I meet time to time. They are not free from religion, their lives are still run by it.Blue Devil Knighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12045468316613818510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-32129388716387277582010-08-31T18:08:54.815-07:002010-08-31T18:08:54.815-07:00Victor Reppert said... "Arthur: I didn't ...Victor Reppert said... "Arthur: I didn't delete any of your posts. It must have been technical difficulties of some kind."<br /><br />Hi Victor , yes then i guess it must have been that.I see no good reason i should have to mistrust you.<br /><br />I just changed use of some words that i thought maybe might have seemed unacceptable to some people ,and been cause of the problem.And left some things out i had mentioned also.And it then went through just fine.<br /><br />But anyway i wasnt unhappy about it.Arthurnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-45177662512840653652010-08-31T13:40:22.456-07:002010-08-31T13:40:22.456-07:00Vic:
Too long time spent not reading what you wri...Vic:<br /><br />Too long time spent not reading what you write.<br /><br />The noise level at the Loftus site I find to be tiresome also. I spend much of my time now talking back and forth with an agnostic. Both of us share an unwillingness to engage the tiresome fundamentalists on both sides who are unwilling to grant any truths other then their on.GREVhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10415494137313565242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-24755791972333485022010-08-30T18:47:30.366-07:002010-08-30T18:47:30.366-07:00Arthur: I didn't delete any of your posts. It ...Arthur: I didn't delete any of your posts. It must have been technical difficulties of some kind.Victor Repperthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10962948073162156902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-46811354456441760042010-08-30T18:07:21.920-07:002010-08-30T18:07:21.920-07:00Arthur: yes, it is very hard to leave a religion b...Arthur: yes, it is very hard to leave a religion both personally, and often because other folks make it hard by trying to pressure you to stay. Good points.Blue Devil Knighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12045468316613818510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-27688307669150744832010-08-30T17:40:12.282-07:002010-08-30T17:40:12.282-07:00Blue Devil Knight said... "Loftus hasn't ...Blue Devil Knight said... "Loftus hasn't banned me, but has deleted a couple of my comments at his site the past week"<br /><br />Hi Blue i had some trouble posting a number of my comments here on this thread over the past few days.Some comments made, seemed like they were automatically deleted somehow.But i respect the right that its Victor blog here,and still think its a really great blog too anyway.<br /><br />Maybe something written within my post wasnt so acceptable to Victor.So i just kept on altering my comment, until it became accepted.<br /><br />But i dont see any need for me to make it like a special personal war , of me against Victors blog standard.To try and get Victor to change his mind about his blog standard.<br /><br />However personally, Blue mostly ive found most of your comments to seem to be fine.So maybe the difference is us humans are not clones and never will be.What i might find acceptable,some others will find not so acceptable.Arthurnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-5351608012202015782010-08-30T17:09:45.187-07:002010-08-30T17:09:45.187-07:00Blue Devil Knight said... "Arthur, I don'...Blue Devil Knight said... "Arthur, I don't mind the "New Atheist" (meaning Harris et al). I was literally referring to new atheists. That is, people who just recently became atheists and still haven't really begun to live a life free of whatever it is they have rejected."<br /><br />Hi Blue.<br /><br />Yes sorry i guess maybe i misunderstood you.I do agree with you there are plenty that way you describe.<br /><br />But i think the point that leaving religion alone, doesnt always equal that religion will be agreeing to be leaving us alone.I think this problem still stands quite often.And so some folks have some reason why they might even resent this the way they do.We cannot expect people to "begun to live a life free of whatever it is they have rejected." .If there is still parts of this religion or whatever it is they have rejected, that still <b>chooses</b> to personally effect them in some way.Its a bit like people cant totally move on from the effects of cancer ,until the cancer itself actually been cured.<br /><br />Its not just a matter of us having the choice to be choosing not to be personally involved in religion.Often there is parts of religion that decide they are still going to be strong influences within our lives,whether we choose it and like it, or not.<br /><br />Of course this is not always the case.Many family members can choose to leave a more liberal faith ,and that liberl faith will simply honor their right to make that personal choice, and so choose to leave them alone in effect also, by fully accepting their right of making this personal choice.<br /><br />However there is still a great shortfall of this more liberal type approach.And so it is partly only a natural phenomena we see in motion, when we do see there are still also new atheists not yet really able to totally free themselves from all the effect of parts of religion.<br /><br />If people tried to stop rights of religion altogether ,even being an atheist myself, i would still stand up and help them defend the right of the religious to personally choose to continue in some religion themselves.<br /><br />However it dont seem so many of them faithful are also prepared to become involved themselves, in helping the new atheists who try to choose to leave religion , have their personal right to choose to do so, respected by the faithful without some sort of negative religious backlash occuring.<br /><br />It is not a very fair deal when religious dont want atheism to effect them .But still do nothing much to try to help stop religion having the right to carry on effecting those who dont choose it.Its like saying look some people have cancer,simply get over it will you, and dont dare be at all unhappy about it.<br /><br />It likely wont happen.It wont work.Its not even fair.In my opinion, we dont have good reason to even expect it might work out fine.<br /><br />And so there is naturally still some consequences humans will pay for this type of very long standing complacency.Because many people are getting very sick of it.Arthurnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-35275370142642373782010-08-30T11:08:01.670-07:002010-08-30T11:08:01.670-07:00Historically, there have been many terrorists quit...Historically, there have been many terrorists quite active politically.<br /><br />The Russian student radicals of the 1800's, the Narodniks, the Weathermen amd of course Lenin and Trotsky and the existentialist Sartre were advocates of terrorism.Emanuel Goldsteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02653303041185240250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-89318175829180948792010-08-29T21:10:53.312-07:002010-08-29T21:10:53.312-07:00Loftus hasn't banned me, but has deleted a cou...Loftus hasn't banned me, but has deleted a couple of my comments at his site the past week. He's becoming the atheist's valicella, pretty soon the comments allowed will all be like "You rule, dude, please may I ask you a question because I need you to guide my thinking I suck you are great."<br /><br />His latest is really funny, he's all excited that someone listed his book on a top five atheist books, not realizing the author wasn't a real person but a link leecher grabbing links for a degree mill web site.<br /><br />Skeptics, show some more skepticism. Confirmation bias perhaps at work? lmao<br /><br />Someone should start a parody site called the gullible skeptic.Blue Devil Knighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12045468316613818510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-31071788000908268042010-08-29T20:13:22.690-07:002010-08-29T20:13:22.690-07:00Arthur, I don't mind the "New Atheist&quo...Arthur, I don't mind the "New Atheist" (meaning Harris et al). I was literally referring to new atheists. That is, people who just recently became atheists and still haven't really begun to live a life free of whatever it is they have rejected.Blue Devil Knighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12045468316613818510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-66785557572776577922010-08-29T16:55:02.537-07:002010-08-29T16:55:02.537-07:00Just saying in my opinion there is some very good ...Just saying in my opinion there is some very good valid reason for the new atheists Blue.<br /><br />But just as i will fiercely fight for the right of the new atheists to exist, i would also do the same for your right not to need to join them.There should be room for everyone.Theism doesnt always allow for that right.It shuns and segregates.<br /><br />Personally i hope the new atheists stick around and dont go away until much change happens.<br /><br />We had years without new atheists and look what that acheived for us.Its the year 2010 Blue , and shit still happen even in the U.S.A where faith terrorist groups can still outcast and torment people and even their own flesh and blood and their children.<br /><br />Islamist terrorist may not blow up buildings and kill and maim people in quick acts that cause pain over shorter periods, without causing such outrage and quick action.<br /><br />But faith terrorist may freely blow many families lives apart and harm and torment peoples lives for a whole lifetime and continue doing the same for thousands of years ,and seems nobody really cares much unless so happens they themselves are personally involved in it.<br /><br />Seems many people care far more about getting a little pissed off with those nasty pesky new atheist.<br /><br />I would fight fierce for your right to keep on with the peacful methods you might personally prefer .But will also fight for the rights of those others who see things a little differently.Arthurnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-4969350408188962112010-08-29T16:53:36.223-07:002010-08-29T16:53:36.223-07:00Arthur said...
Blue Devil Knight said... "Th...Arthur said... <br />Blue Devil Knight said... "They aren't free from theism yet, their life is still dominated by it."<br /><br />Hi Blue.<br /><br />Yes thats very much all part of the reason.Yes people can leave religion but that dont mean religion going to decide to leave on effecting them does it Blue.<br /><br />There is plenty of valid reason for new atheists.However nobody has to be forced into being one.But then nobody should be forced not to be one either, specially when there is plenty of good valid reason why they exist.<br /><br />If Christians really dont like the presense of new atheists,then maybe they need to finally start getting their act together, and spend a lot more time and effort working a little faster themselves towards making sure religion dont effect so many people the way it always has done.Religion often been effecting people whether through choice or no choice.<br /><br />Because honestly that is no more fair, than Christians feel the effects of new atheists dont really seem fair to them.And the detrimental imposing effect of religion has been around for thousands of years now.Its not like theist havent had plenty of time! to get their act together to try to do a little more to remedy this problem .The biggest problem has been not enough cared about it enough.They became complacent,and so naturally there is also a price to pay for this complacency.Hense the new atheist evolving.<br /><br />Im not interested in being in anybodies camp Blue.I totally refuse to ever accept i need to be categorized as such.It reminds me far to much of some sort of religion.<br /><br />I left faith 40 years ago Blue and i aint been back to any church since either.But faith still effects my life in a very potent way.And my kids life too .They dont have a grandma or gandpa or any cousins or relations on my side.There is much more i could tell you too about it much worse stuff than i have already said, but it just dont matter.Telling you wont fix it,and thats why its important to stop it happening from the start.<br /><br />continuedArthurnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-39555856311580037662010-08-29T15:43:55.287-07:002010-08-29T15:43:55.287-07:00Bob Prokop thanks for the Joke i laughed so much i...Bob Prokop thanks for the Joke i laughed so much i had tears in my eyes.Its a funny thing both these two countries send jokes back and forth about each other, and often give each other heaps!.But underneath all the cheek we think of them like they are family.Most of us do really have relations on both sides of the ditch now anyway mind you, so im picking thats got lots to do with it.<br /><br />Bob, entering the South Island of NZ from being in the North Island, is kind of like entering another country.I now live in the South Island.The North Island is only 43,911 sq mi in area, yet has the population around 3,287,600 .South Island is larger with 58,384 sq mi in area and yet only has a population of a little over 1 million people.If people like open spaces , less hussle and bussle , extra friendly people , great outdoors, mountians ,bush and trekking or sailing through fiords etc.Best be sure to visit the South Island.But if trekking please do plan, be safe and well prepared and tell people your plans and where you intend to trek,its really best too to always pack a few warm clothes a little food and maybe even a suvival blanket,they are so cheap and lite to carry,and can save lives!.Its a safe small country yes, but creeks can sometimes turn into torrents in a flash as water flows quickly down from vast mountianous catchments.Specially after short heavy downpours of rain,after long dry periods,the water doesnt sink into the ground enough it just rushes downhill!.I heard it myself and it sounds like thunder.They have even found local people ,dead from drowning days later laying hung up in tree tops in gullys.<br /><br />There is nothing here other than sandflies thats going to bite anyone or try kill you that way ,it just seems such a calm peaceful place that it becomes so very easy to be lulled into under-estimating the dangers the weather can be, if its due for a drastic changes overnight etc.<br /><br />I say all this because we kiwis do really enjoy having overseas travelers ,but we dont really enjoy searching for these peoples dead bodies.And sadly it happens to often.<br /><br />PeaceArthurnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-77517496987787796332010-08-29T14:22:20.720-07:002010-08-29T14:22:20.720-07:00New atheists tend to be the most vociferous, think...New atheists tend to be the most vociferous, think that anyone that is still a believe is just ignorant, and tend to be the most argumentative. Those that have been atheist a long time tend to be a lot more tolerant of others' belief, as they realize there are very intelligent/educated people that still believe.<br /><br />They like to say 'If atheism is a religion then not collecting stamps is a hobby.' Well, the latter would be true if they started web sites attacking people that collect stamps, can't stop talking about stamp collectors, have meetings and write books about how silly it is to collect stamps, there is an entire subculture of people united by the fact that they do not collect stamps.<br /><br />They aren't free from theism yet, their life is still dominated by it. They are typically 'new atheists' in the literal sense. IT is new, they are passionate, they 'witness' for atheism, and tend to be really annoying know-it-alls.<br /><br />I was like that for a few years when I first became an atheist. When I see it in others I find it amusing for the most part, like a sophomore in college who has just become a liberal and gives a knee-jerk response to any idea he thinks is "conservative".<br /><br />Some people never grow out of these adolescent stages. I view it as a kind of intellectual adolescence or rebellion, and I think people for the most part grow up, and become more mature which partly means accepting other intelligent people will disagree with me.<br /><br />Loftus takes the cake, frankly, lately coming off as not even adolescent. Calling people out for not having credentials, justifying his lack of credentials by saying he is a jack of all disciplines so is especially scary. I bet that really has you guys quaking in your boots.<br /><br />Really, I find it embarrassing to be in the same camp as him metaphysically speaking. His stereotypical behavior may be doing more for Christian apologetics than any of your arguments about martyrs.Blue Devil Knighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12045468316613818510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-32679625119792947532010-08-29T09:23:38.249-07:002010-08-29T09:23:38.249-07:00I strongly disagree with Mr. Loftus and rip on his...I strongly disagree with Mr. Loftus and rip on his commenters but he has not banned me from his blog. (Not yet, anyway!) So, with respect to me, at least, he has been accommodating. (I do not claim my experience is universal, though; I don't know of others' experiences with DB.)O'Brienhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07532848760781346921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-75078365107614139522010-08-29T05:11:32.713-07:002010-08-29T05:11:32.713-07:00Bob Prokop writing:
I never realized there were s...Bob Prokop writing:<br /><br />I never realized there were so many Kiwis on this site! I’ve actually spent quite a bit of time in your fair land (although I have yet to make it to South Island). It was in NZ that I heard one of the funniest jokes ever:<br /><br />The Lord God had gone missing for 7 days in Heaven, before the archangel Michael discovered Him resting on a cloud, looking quite pleased with Himself. Michael approached His Omnipotence and said, “Lord, we haven’t seen you for days! What have you been up to?”<br /><br />The Almighty turned to Michael and, beaming broadly, replied, “I’ve been creating! Take a look!” Michael gazed out into the void, and gasped at what he saw – the world! “It’s beautiful!”, the angel exclaimed.<br /><br />“Yes”, said the All-knowing. “And best of all, everything is in balance. Look – it’s cold at the poles, and hot in between. Here is a continent of white people, and over here is a continent of black people. It is wet and rainy over here, and dry and desertish over there”.<br /><br />Michael continued to marvel at the globe as it spun before his gaze. Then he noticed two islands coming into view far in the south. “And what is that?”, he asked the All-seeing.<br /><br />“Ah”, came the reply. “There you see my masterpiece! I call it New Zealand. A land of strong men, fair women, gorgeous scenery, rich in natural resources, and home to the most feared rugby team on the whole planet!”<br /><br />Michael was speechless with awe, as he contemplated this wonder. But then, somewhat confused, he asked, “But Your Everlastingness, you said everything was in balance. Where is the balance for New Zealand?”<br /><br />“Well asked!” responded the All Powerful, “Just take a look at the continent of loudmouthed, arrogant tossers I’ve put right next to it!”Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-17603851805151027092010-08-29T03:22:23.500-07:002010-08-29T03:22:23.500-07:00Vic, Sounds to me like you're clinging tighter...Vic, Sounds to me like you're clinging tighter and tighter (in white knuckle fashion) to a long list of specific beliefs about morality and God and Christ and what not, as you grow older, all part of what you "hope" for. That's a LOT of explicit "hopes." But one day we're all gonna die, our blogs will be gone, our words turn to dust. Even if we go on in another form in another life we can't take this stuff with us. And even our memories from this brief span of life on earth will probably fade as eternity wears on and new experiences fill up our minds, such that this life will be a distant dream, less real to us than the memories of our first year of life on this planet. So it's probably all gonna go, Vic. All of it. No "hope" can bring it back. And I bet you'd get tired of this life even if you COULD play the tape back over and over and over again at will throughout eternity. So maybe it's best to simply live life LIKE AN ATHEIST, one day at a time, and not try too much to second guess the future, whether finite or infinite, whether surprising or disappointing, and not worry so much about dragging around your grocery cart filled to the brim with specific explicit "beliefs" and specific "hopes." <br /><br />Just a thought.Edwardtbabinskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13036816926421936940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-78049676861950426632010-08-28T21:44:04.223-07:002010-08-28T21:44:04.223-07:00As one who is maybe too much a bystander to disagr...As one who is maybe too much a bystander to disagreement and debate on the internet, I take some grim satisfaction in JWL’s outbursts of, “you’re an idiot and duffas.” I guess I’ve accepted the fact that no one is really convinced of anything on blogs and debate. They are convinced by much deeper emotional and experiential events.<br /> <br />No one on the internet is really going to dissuade me that my only real hope is in Christ, that my marriage and love for my wife is not the greatest satisfaction in life, that my years in science were repetitive and boring, and other truths that I will probably go to the grave with. All said, I like Vic and Bob Prokop and find John W L most interesting when he shows his humanity and not his Mr. Spock like logic.Gimli 4 the Westhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09077653879666675956noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-87809269559824020002010-08-28T21:35:19.402-07:002010-08-28T21:35:19.402-07:00Longstreet said...
"This has become a hostil...Longstreet said... <br />"This has become a hostile site to me precisely because Vic has not read my books and because he has taken pot shots at me out of ignorance for the last four years."<br /><br />Hmmm. I suspect this has become a hostile site for the same reasons T-Web did; you're dishonest, your arguments are shallow, and you're incapable of the kind of self-examination that you demand of believers."<br /><br />Yes well being one of these nasty tyrant atheists myself, when ever i find somebody with some bad arguments who might also be a little dishonest and angry and harsh.I find this automatically also gives me good enough reason to despise them and go on the attack in return.And because somebody is incapable of something they expect of me, well i just begin to hate them .I call this leading by example.<br /><br />This is naturally all completely warranted of course , the holy tyrant atheist spirits tell me so and are guiding me.My adult atheist tyrancy explains to me i should need to copy others like an adult should always do.There is absolutely nothing at all to ever be gained by an atheist tyrants perseverance from leading by example.<br /><br />Because of my atheism very soon i shall most likely morph into another Stalin.Arthurnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-81890160418237747472010-08-28T21:17:28.131-07:002010-08-28T21:17:28.131-07:00Jake Elwood XVI said...
Arthur
Somebody else ment...Jake Elwood XVI said... <br />Arthur<br />Somebody else mentioned the ruby team still happens to sing God save the queen.So i ask, does use of an old tradition simply equal a God country by faithful folks calculations?.<br /><br />I actually mentioned God defend new Zealand. Not being a kiwi I thought this was your anthem. The rugby reference was to light heartedly suggest this might be true. I thought that kiwis had senses of humour like Aussies do. Maybe I was wrong. Sorry I must have lacked clarity in what I was trying to say. Which was that new zealand still seems a xn nation to those of us across the ditch. Maori like other islanders seem predominately xn, even if this is just a cultural thing."<br /><br />Hi Jake.<br /><br />Sorry if i sounded offended.Thats a problem with blogging i guess.No you didnt offend me.<br /><br />New Zealand was colonized quite a long time ago and yes thats also our anthem, and back then many people in the old days were believers .So naturally some of these old God traditions still remain today.However people here often do question whether we still need them.And i doubt they will last forever.<br /><br />Jake i personally know and have worked with many Maori and number of pacific islanders over the years.<br /><br />For all the many Maori i have known , i could count those that had honest faith, on fingers of just one hand.And though many pacific islanders do come here to this country with christian faiths ,it doesnt last long with many of them, and with those that it does it really cant be described as being anything more than tradition and culture.<br /><br />It seems many use it to fleece their flock or the government system.And yeah some go quickly to church sunday morning , but by afternoon they are back slugging back alcohol and then beating each other over.The wonder of the power of the holy spirits.<br /><br />I havent been to church now for 40 years or more ,and absolutely none of my friends bother to either .None of us drink alcohol in any great quantities and neither do we bash each other.<br /><br />Atheism .Such a very terrible terrible thing huh Jake?.<br /><br />Causes these tyrants.Arthurnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-63885706298387550142010-08-28T19:01:32.238-07:002010-08-28T19:01:32.238-07:00Arthur
Somebody else mentioned the ruby team still...Arthur<br />Somebody else mentioned the ruby team still happens to sing God save the queen.So i ask, does use of an old tradition simply equal a God country by faithful folks calculations?.<br /><br />I actually mentioned God defend new Zealand. Not being a kiwi I thought this was your anthem. The rugby reference was to light heartedly suggest this might be true. I thought that kiwis had senses of humour like Aussies do. Maybe I was wrong. Sorry I must have lacked clarity in what I was trying to say. Which was that new zealand still seems a xn nation to those of us across the ditch. Maori like other islanders seem predominately xn, even if this is just a cultural thing.Jake Elwood XVInoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-74808053721694928392010-08-28T18:33:27.167-07:002010-08-28T18:33:27.167-07:00"This has become a hostile site to me precise..."This has become a hostile site to me precisely because Vic has not read my books and because he has taken pot shots at me out of ignorance for the last four years."<br /><br />Hmmm. I suspect this has become a hostile site for the same reasons T-Web did; you're dishonest, your arguments are shallow, and you're incapable of the kind of self-examination that you demand of believers.Longstreetnoreply@blogger.com