tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post7143977417478333051..comments2024-03-28T12:34:14.649-07:00Comments on dangerous idea: Surprise, surpriseVictor Repperthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10962948073162156902noreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-66328688795802926802016-07-08T06:18:40.336-07:002016-07-08T06:18:40.336-07:00^ I do understand how "Heads, I Win; Tails, Y...^ I do understand how "Heads, I Win; Tails, You Lose" works.Ilíonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15339406092961816142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-20392996853617446852016-07-07T15:05:08.632-07:002016-07-07T15:05:08.632-07:00^ But denying you're an asshole would have con...^ But denying you're an asshole would have confirmed it.Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07597410735412554920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-1175386207045182422016-07-07T14:43:44.015-07:002016-07-07T14:43:44.015-07:00^ Calling me an asshole doesn't negate your in...^ Calling me an asshole doesn't negate your intellectual dishonesty.Ilíonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15339406092961816142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-3916625446906637822016-07-03T13:24:24.562-07:002016-07-03T13:24:24.562-07:00One Asshole for Jesus: "And Victor Reppert *s...<b>One Asshole for Jesus:</b> "<i>And Victor Reppert *still* will continue to pretend that JJL is merely mistaken rather than actively deliberately engaging in intellectual dishonesty.</i>"<br /><br />And Victor Reppert *still* will continue to pretend that Illion is merely mistaken rather than deliberately engaging in intellectual dishonesty (regarding JJL's and other atheists' alleged intellectual dishonesty). <br /><br />See how easy it is to sling accusations around, without backing them up? <br /><br />For a more serious observation: On the assumption that all atheists are intellectually dishonest, you'd expect atheists to deny that because, well, <i>ex hypothesi</i> they are intellectually dishonest. You'd expect them to lie about their own dishonesty. <br /><br />But, on that same hypothesis, it is surprising that Christian philosophers like Victor Reppert, Randal Rauser, Stephen J Graham, <i>et al</i> reject the hypothesis. They have no vested interest in defending the intellectual honesty of atheists. Their rejection of the "all atheists are intellectually dishonest" thesis is evidence <i>against</i> the truth of that thesis. Secular Outposthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10289884295542007401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-57323615030593751752016-07-03T03:54:43.301-07:002016-07-03T03:54:43.301-07:00one fool: "Actually, atheists agree that Jahw...<b>one fool:</b> "<i>Actually, atheists agree that Jahweh can be far too libertine. ...</i>"<br /><br /><b>another fool:</b> "<i>A man rapes a woman ... and this is supposed to be rectified by (1) paying her father 50 shekels of silver; and (2) the rapist marries his victim?</i>"<br /><br />And Victor Reppert *still* will continue to pretend that JJL is merely mistaken rather than actively deliberately engaging in intellectual dishonesty.Ilíonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15339406092961816142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-62198307597983473402016-07-02T22:35:55.215-07:002016-07-02T22:35:55.215-07:00@Scott: I realize you were quoting Deuteronomy 22,...@Scott: I realize you were quoting Deuteronomy 22, BTW.Secular Outposthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10289884295542007401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-46717458907536050602016-07-02T22:33:25.874-07:002016-07-02T22:33:25.874-07:00A man rapes a woman ... and this is supposed to be...A man rapes a woman ... and this is supposed to be rectified by (1) paying her father 50 shekels of silver; and (2) the rapist marries his victim?Secular Outposthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10289884295542007401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-64387356906851596762016-07-02T21:08:24.569-07:002016-07-02T21:08:24.569-07:00Actually, atheists agree that Jahweh can be far to...Actually, atheists agree that Jahweh can be far too libertine.<br /><br />"If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found, then the man who lay with her shall give to the father of the young woman fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has violated her."Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07597410735412554920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-57884519332205918432016-06-30T20:39:32.271-07:002016-06-30T20:39:32.271-07:00My, Steve is determined to try to make an issue wh...My, Steve is determined to try to make an issue where one does not exist. Secular Outposthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10289884295542007401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-86916588268048630262016-06-30T20:09:29.921-07:002016-06-30T20:09:29.921-07:00My, Jeff certainly is touchy on this issue. And it...My, Jeff certainly is touchy on this issue. And it wasn't just the post, but the subsequent comments by Parsons.stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-91218976543187143242016-06-30T11:51:48.600-07:002016-06-30T11:51:48.600-07:00Victor,
I expected a better logical analysis of t...Victor,<br /><br />I expected a better logical analysis of the situation from a professional philosopher such as yourself. You may be correct that there is something intrinsic about secularism or atheism which has played / continues to play a causal role in incidents of sexual harassment. But you haven't shown that, and the analysis in this post is unworthy of your intellectual stature and abilities.<br /><br />First, you know as well as anyone else that correlation does not equal causation, but it is as if you completely forgot about that concept when writing your post. So... where is your logical analysis showing that this is causation and not mere correlation. For example, where is your analysis of the possibility that atheist organizations actually comply, by taking allegations seriously, conducting independent investigations, being transparent, and having zero tolerance for confirmed violations of their policies? It could be that that possibility is completely wrong, i.e., that isn't what happens. My educated guess -- and I emphasize the word "guess" -- is that secularist organizations do what I just said. But if that's wrong (and it could be), then I would have expected you to show that as a necessary condition for refuting the "correlation does not equal causation" objection.<br /><br />Second, you know as well as anyone that there are other options besides:<br /><br />* sex is okay only between a husband and wife (and maybe, even then, only for the purpose of procreation); and<br />* sex is okay with anyone (or anything) at any time.<br /><br />It's as if you've completely forgotten about secularist approaches to normative ethics in general or applied ethics (specifically, sexual morality). <br /><br />Frankly, if I were a Christian trying to 'score' rhetorical points against atheists by 'capitalizing' on this as a 'PR' opportunity, I would go about it in a much different way. Channeling my inner William Lane Craig, I would say something like this:<br /><br />"I think most atheists condemn sexual misconduct and sexual harassment and so these allegations are not representative of how most atheists think or behave, but (1) they don't have any ontological basis for condemning such behavior; (2) there's no real downside to such behavior IF the atheist can get away with it; and (3) if the atheists who engage in such behavior espouse values which condemn such behavior, then it would appear that atheism and secularism can have hypocrisy just as much as theism can. Atheists can't criticize hypocrisy in the Church while ignoring or excusing hypocrisy in their own camp."Secular Outposthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10289884295542007401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-40017072017776970522016-06-30T11:30:10.837-07:002016-06-30T11:30:10.837-07:00It's funny to see atheists go ballistic over V...<i>It's funny to see atheists go ballistic over Victor's post. Over at the Secular Outpost, Keith Parsons tried to ridicule Victor's post.</i><br /><br />It's funny to see a Christian characterize a very funny post as "going ballistic." If that is "going ballistic," then I wonder what words you would use to describe things that I would call "going ballistic." "Going really ballistic," perhaps? "Going nuclear?"Secular Outposthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10289884295542007401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-69820856064827184012016-06-30T10:54:26.450-07:002016-06-30T10:54:26.450-07:00It's funny to see atheists go ballistic over V...It's funny to see atheists go ballistic over Victor's post. Over at the Secular Outpost, Keith Parsons tried to ridicule Victor's post.<br /><br />However, atheists routinely deride traditional Christian sexual mores as oppressive. Christians suffer from these prudish sexual hangups.<br /><br />So the secular alternative is bound to be something more libertine. stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-87429852899134404952016-06-30T06:16:56.114-07:002016-06-30T06:16:56.114-07:00^ attempts to elevate foolishness to equivalence w...^ attempts to elevate foolishness to equivalence with Christianity.Ilíonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15339406092961816142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-17674169013036063372016-06-29T23:55:47.539-07:002016-06-29T23:55:47.539-07:00Well as a Christina I believe a person who needs r...Well as a Christina I believe a person who needs rules to behave like a decent human being isn't a decent human being and should exposed as such.<br /><br />Christianity teaches we are not under The Law.Kuudere-Kunhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06537085979461349854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-17993118709299311722016-06-29T22:28:05.498-07:002016-06-29T22:28:05.498-07:00Victor,
These people are neither illiterate nor ig...Victor,<br />These people are neither illiterate nor ignorant nor stupid -- they <i>understand</i> what you're saying; the problem is that they are intellectually dishonest.Ilíonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15339406092961816142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-42203548480804323652016-06-29T22:25:57.547-07:002016-06-29T22:25:57.547-07:00Are there any benighted restrictions on sexual con...Are there any benighted restrictions on sexual conduct coming from secularists? Victor Repperthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10962948073162156902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-54362692450396408342016-06-29T21:40:51.851-07:002016-06-29T21:40:51.851-07:00Church organizations seem to be having a lot of tr...Church organizations seem to be having a lot of trouble with sexual harassment. <br /><br />You have to ask "What did you think was going to happen?" One of the key selling points of accepting Christ as your Lord and Savior is that you don't have to follow those benighted old restrictions on sexual conduct imposed by those nasty, politically correct, law-abiding secularists, because you are already going to heaven. And then, lo and behold, vulnerable people are threatened by the out-of-control libidos of such "saved" people.<br /><br />Surprise, surprise. Next thing you know, we will be finding out that gambling is going on in Casablanca. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14228677520866358481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-51536315342806619072016-06-29T15:51:45.211-07:002016-06-29T15:51:45.211-07:00Victor,
Again, do you have any evidence of any o...Victor, <br /><br />Again, do you have any evidence of any of that? <br />Even from your own interaction with atheists. Are you not projecting some of your beliefs about the consequences of atheism onto atheists who do not share such beliefs? <br />If you have any evidence of things happening differently, please share it (links, references, anecdotes, <i>anything</i>), but in my experience, nearly all atheists also engage in moral deliberation, they make moral assessments, etc. In fact, complaints about sexual harassment came from atheists who clearly judged the behavior of some other atheists immoral. <br />Those who engaged in those behaviors either believe they're immoral but they do it anyway, or they have a moral disagreement with the others. <br />Granted, some atheists are also moral error theorists, but those are a minority, and even most of them are usually inconsistent since they tend to make moral assessments regardless (even if they use other terms). <br />Now, granted, atheists do not have the Bible as a guide. But having a book so full of moral errors as a guide is a big hindrance when it comes to ascertaining moral truth, not an advantage. Now, many atheists also have other ideologies that lead them astray, so there is that. But that doesn't seem to be the issue when it comes to harassment.<br /><br />Also, within Christianity, there are also vast moral disagreements, only they tend to involve not only the normal features of moral debate, like presenting hypothetical scenarios, asking people to consider the consequences, appeal to intuitions, asking people to put themselves in the shoes of others, on occasion reasoning from accepted moral premises, etc., but also appeal to the Bible (or some other source depending on the variant of Christianity), on the basis of a false belief that it's inerrant when it comes to morality, or that at least it's generally a good guide because it's the word of a morally perfect person, etc.Angra Mainyuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16342860692268708455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-91455629249909814402016-06-29T14:38:34.741-07:002016-06-29T14:38:34.741-07:00I'm not saying it's a nonissue. What I am ...I'm not saying it's a nonissue. What I am saying is that in Christianity, you can say to a sexual harasser that there are rules and your broke them. With secularism, the rule structure that tells people they can't engage in certain types of conduct is dismantled. So, you then have to ask what the rules are, and how they are going to work. Victor Repperthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10962948073162156902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-79996881418429901102016-06-29T14:14:49.537-07:002016-06-29T14:14:49.537-07:00LOL, as if Sexual Harassment is a non issue within...LOL, as if Sexual Harassment is a non issue within The Church.Kuudere-Kunhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06537085979461349854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-33111162792658186702016-06-29T13:50:29.175-07:002016-06-29T13:50:29.175-07:00^ Three cheers for the passive-aggressive "Ci...^ Three cheers for the passive-aggressive "Citations, Please!" game!Ilíonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15339406092961816142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-48006802985991532802016-06-29T13:14:19.347-07:002016-06-29T13:14:19.347-07:00Victor,
Do you have any data backing the implica...Victor, <br /><br />Do you have any data backing the implication that sexual harassment (or even worse non-consensual sexual behavior) is more frequent in atheist organizations than it is among the general population, or in religious organizations, or whatever the group you're implicitly comparing the atheist organizations with, in order to make your assessment about some of the consequences of not following Christian restrictions on sexual behavior?Angra Mainyuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16342860692268708455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-20282610711431329922016-06-29T12:24:20.418-07:002016-06-29T12:24:20.418-07:00Jacob,
Check out this blog.Jacob,<br /><br />Check out <a href="https://shadowtolight.wordpress.com/" rel="nofollow">this blog</a>.planks lengthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01176715815596833639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-78283618534685534872016-06-29T12:11:34.104-07:002016-06-29T12:11:34.104-07:00Victor, out of curiosity, where are you getting th...Victor, out of curiosity, where are you getting these reports of harrassment?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14700900912363544248noreply@blogger.com