tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post6570720289192239779..comments2024-03-28T12:34:14.649-07:00Comments on dangerous idea: On improving the tone of political debateVictor Repperthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10962948073162156902noreply@blogger.comBlogger55125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-43303826269433185542008-10-20T12:49:00.000-07:002008-10-20T12:49:00.000-07:00Patrick wrote:“I happen to know Steve. Sorry to in...Patrick wrote:<BR/><BR/>“I happen to know Steve. Sorry to inform you but your comments about him are pretty ridiculous.”<BR/><BR/>He treats those who think differently than he does as **opponents** (whether they be Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, other Protestants, Arminians, whatever). And these **opponents** are attacked, mocked, ridiculed verbally and viciously. <BR/><BR/>“BTW, I wonder which "friend of his" you're referring to? It doesn't seem like this "friend" is a true "friend," though, since he apparently fed you misinformation. Either that or you heard wrong.”<BR/><BR/>Actually it is **more than one person**, and since they say the same things, I take these things to be true. I know a lot more than I have stated, but sharing the rest is really not necessary. <BR/><BR/>Regarding his taking care of his ailing mother, his friends say this is a commendable thing for him to do. And I agree with them. <BR/><BR/>“But even if we assume you're right, then what? You make it seem as if it were somehow a bad thing for a Christian to take care of (as you say) "an ailing mother," for one thing.”<BR/><BR/>I did not say it was a bad thing, and as his friends who have shared the information say, it is commendable (i.e., Honoring your father and mother: taking care of those family members in need).<BR/><BR/>“Also, you say that Steve "has no accountability and is just a loose canon spewing his hatred of others through his blog on the internet." “<BR/><BR/>My conclusion is based on my own history with Hays and observation. I shared bible verses with him first which he ignored and claimed I was misinterpreting. Then I said let’s go through local church leadership (and he responded that he was not under local church leadership). I then contacted a respected calvinist leader who contacted the Triablogers about this problem. None of it worked, there was no change, no repentance, and he **continues** to engage in the same kinds of vicious verbal attacks of others. So I conclude that he **is** a loose canon.<BR/><BR/>“Steve, for example, is in the public sphere, but we know precious little about you except that you say your name is "Robert." If hiding behind an online name -- "Robert," which may or may not be your real name.”<BR/><BR/>Robert is my name so I am not “hiding” behind my own name.<BR/><BR/>If Hays wants to attack ideas and show the problems with other people’s ideas “in the public sphere”, fine. He can do that with all with whom he disagrees, and that is not a problem. But it is the ***additional personal attacks***, the snide comments, belittling comments, hateful comments, etc. etc. that are added and unnecessary that are the problem.<BR/><BR/>You seem to have forgotten (or ignored) that Victor talked about these unnecessary personal attacks by Hays, which is what I cited and responded to. Recall what Victor wrote which began this thread, where he refers to the verbal attacks he has received from Hays:<BR/><BR/>“I don't know if any of you have been going over to Triablogue, but I have been treated over there to the harshest personal attacks I have ever received from anyone from Steve Hays. Compared to him, Steven Carr has been the model of politeness. To Hays, it isn't enough to say that I am backing the wrong candidate for President. I have been compared to Goebbels, called a Red Philosopher, a Baby Butcher's Best Friend, a poseur, a goose-stepping apparatchik for the left, a false philosopher and a false Christian, and even someone too stingy and selfish to help his own parents in their old age, since I said I was sure glad they got Social Security and Medicare when they advanced in age.”<BR/><BR/>Is Victor lying here? <BR/><BR/>Or is Victor actually receiving the kinds of unnecessary vicious verbal attacks which I claim are the problem with Steve Hays?<BR/><BR/>This kind of personal attack is what is unacceptable. And it is precisely this kind of thing that Hays repeatedly engages in over and over again. That stuff is wrong and unacceptable. But he keeps doing it, and apparently he has no accountability so it will continue. As others have noted, perhaps the best response is to just ignore him and his hateful comments. <BR/><BR/>RobertRoberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16907838048020669875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-50704988287823454032008-10-18T19:32:00.000-07:002008-10-18T19:32:00.000-07:00Isn't it amusing that someone -- who apparently ca...Isn't it amusing that someone -- who apparently can't be bothered to understand -- who imagines he is competent to command others to answer to him, doesn't seem to understand "<I>Talk to the hand ...</I>"Ilíonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15339406092961816142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-71201838261012410432008-10-18T18:36:00.000-07:002008-10-18T18:36:00.000-07:00For the record, I am not interested in speculating...For the record, I am not interested in speculating on Steve Hays or any other Triablogger in terms of his or her motives. By the way, Gene, I did notice that you were not in lockstep with Steve on the abortion-related discussion, so I should further note that Triablogue is not perfectly monolithic politically. Nor, for that matter, is everyone on there a Calvinist, contrary to popular belief.Victor Repperthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10962948073162156902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-80195380334041368872008-10-18T17:52:00.000-07:002008-10-18T17:52:00.000-07:00Obviously, I mean, at minimum, those who cannot co...<I>Obviously, I mean, at minimum, those who cannot comprehend what they read, nor its context which gives it its particular meaning.</I><BR/><BR/>And which ones would those be, and which examples do you have in mind?<BR/><BR/><I>Now, why don't you go play elsewhere?</I><BR/><BR/>Sorry, but when you bring up "some Tbloggers" you're invoking my name, since I'm one of them. I have every right to ask this question, since you're one of those engaging in innuendo.<BR/><BR/><I> I simply don't have the time to waste with those who will not think.</I><BR/><BR/>I was not aware that you get to dictate the rules of participation on this blog or any other. You're the one who brought up this issue, so it's up to you to justify yourself. If you can't or won't do that, it's not my problem. I find it rather ironic that when the folks in this combox get called out on their own level, they resort to this sort of sophistry.GeneMBridgeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10504383610477532374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-77479266384705590882008-10-18T16:25:00.000-07:002008-10-18T16:25:00.000-07:00Obviously, I mean, at minimum, those who cannot co...Obviously, I mean, at minimum, those who cannot comprehend what they read, nor its context which gives it its particular meaning.<BR/><BR/>Now, why don't you go play elsewhere? I simply don't have the time to waste with those who will not think.Ilíonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15339406092961816142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-6178154025958372972008-10-18T16:17:00.000-07:002008-10-18T16:17:00.000-07:00Yes, some of the Triabloguers ... well, let us say...<I>Yes, some of the Triabloguers ... well, let us say, some of them appear to "have issues.</I><BR/><BR/>It's time to lay our cards on the table in this little gossip game from the schoolyard.<BR/><BR/>Which Tbloggers do you have in mind?<BR/>Exactly what issues would those be?GeneMBridgeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10504383610477532374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-69849646817650192352008-10-18T12:55:00.000-07:002008-10-18T12:55:00.000-07:00Anonymous,Yes, some of the Triabloguers ... well, ...Anonymous,<BR/>Yes, some of the Triabloguers ... well, let us say, some of them appear to "have issues."<BR/><BR/>But, if a person is right about something, then he's right about it: truth is not a popularity contest.Ilíonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15339406092961816142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-11125758141140063082008-10-18T11:45:00.000-07:002008-10-18T11:45:00.000-07:00Hooray, that Manata guy is back! He's a Triablogu...Hooray, that Manata guy is back! He's a Triablogue poster, too, right? <BR/><BR/>I especially like his new blogger photo: a sniper. Because nothing says "follower of Jesus" like "sniper". Certainly an improvement over his former photo: the Predator. <BR/><BR/>Triabloggers: not at all unhinged or otherwise nutty.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-67283678126387847452008-10-17T23:41:00.000-07:002008-10-17T23:41:00.000-07:00You made a funny, Anonymouse! I hadn't thought yo...You made a funny, Anonymouse! I hadn't thought you had it in you.Ilíonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15339406092961816142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-78485142994163942742008-10-17T22:15:00.000-07:002008-10-17T22:15:00.000-07:00Ilion's personal vendetta against Anonymous is get...Ilion's personal vendetta against Anonymous is getting tiresome.Maul P.https://www.blogger.com/profile/15227129983621069565noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-48169502469694168262008-10-17T20:11:00.000-07:002008-10-17T20:11:00.000-07:00Anonymouse,On top of being such a supreme willful ...Anonymouse,<BR/>On top of being such a supreme willful fool, you're eminently ignorant. Not that you mind about either.Ilíonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15339406092961816142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-65113010782403487742008-10-17T20:07:00.000-07:002008-10-17T20:07:00.000-07:00Ilion's personal vendetta against Reppert and Tria...Ilion's personal vendetta against Reppert and Triabloguers is so tiresome.Maul P.https://www.blogger.com/profile/15227129983621069565noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-3771673808206330772008-10-17T19:35:00.000-07:002008-10-17T19:35:00.000-07:00This two-way personal vendetta between the Triblog...This two-way personal vendetta between the Tribloguers and Robert ... and, apparently, their personal vendetta against anyone who dares to disagree wth their erroneous theology ... is so tiresome.Ilíonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15339406092961816142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-66289083936522131322008-10-17T19:23:00.000-07:002008-10-17T19:23:00.000-07:00Robert's out of intellectual gas and so all he can...Robert's out of intellectual gas and so all he can do is put put put along in his hybred engaging in drive-by name calling. How "gangsta" he is.<BR/><BR/>http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2008/10/why-arminians-like-robert-hate-steve.htmlErrorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10615233201833238198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-85558492964099942602008-10-17T19:07:00.000-07:002008-10-17T19:07:00.000-07:00Robert, you are in the wrong, both wrong in reason...Robert, you are in the wrong, both wrong in reason and logic and in morality.<BR/><BR/>You are speaking from your personal dislike of the Triabloguers, rather than from a stance of having one foot securely planted in logical reasoning and the other planted securely in true morality.Ilíonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15339406092961816142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-83340368018386246512008-10-17T17:41:00.000-07:002008-10-17T17:41:00.000-07:00if I were a little guy like him (a friend of his s...<I>if I were a little guy like him (a friend of his says he is only about 5 foot 6), about 50 years old, unmarried, without children and living with my ailing mother (a full time job in itself), and my **job** was as a teaching assistant, I might not be a happy camper either.</I><BR/><BR/>So, Robert, can we infer from this that you have no biblical argument against Steve at all?<BR/><BR/>Rather, we can infer that given the intellectual vacuity of your past posts (still waiting on your exegetical presentation showing the Bible teaches libertarian freedom - despite having asked you for it so many times I've lost count), you're an ageist who believes that single men shouldn't take care of their ailing parents, and you dislike short people too? Tell us, Robert, how this is at all a "Christian" way to talk about another believer?<BR/><BR/>Let the record show that Robert regularly spews this sort of ad homineum invective and playing this sort of double standard. He decries this sort of speech in others, but he revels in it himself on a regular basis. What's worse, he lacks the courage to say it to our faces on Triablogue. Instead, he hides on other blogs and does it. Indeed, I've even received emails from others in which Robert complains to them about his treatment at Triablogue.<BR/>One supposes this is his attempt to make us "accountable." To whom, Robert, are bloggers "accountable?" Is Robert suggesting that we should be accountable to some sort of ecclesiastical authority? Fair enough. Then, in that case, to which ecclesiastical authority is Robert accountable?GeneMBridgeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10504383610477532374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-45952781542038618292008-10-17T16:45:00.000-07:002008-10-17T16:45:00.000-07:00Robert said:Coming from Steve Hays who repeatedly ...Robert said:<BR/><BR/><B>Coming from Steve Hays who repeatedly engages in this kind of intentionally offensive rhetoric. He has no accountability and is just a loose canon spewing his hatred of others through his blog on the internet. I think part of the problem, part of his bitterness, comes from his life circumstances: if I were a little guy like him (a friend of his says he is only about 5 foot 6), about 50 years old, unmarried, without children and living with my ailing mother (a full time job in itself), and my **job** was as a teaching assistant, I might not be a happy camper either. He fancies himself a writer but his stuff lacks quality and so likely will only appear on his own blog.</B><BR/><BR/>Robert,<BR/><BR/>I happen to know Steve. Sorry to inform you but your comments about him are pretty ridiculous.<BR/><BR/>BTW, I wonder which "friend of his" you're referring to? It doesn't seem like this "friend" is a true "friend," though, since he apparently fed you misinformation. Either that or you heard wrong.<BR/><BR/>But even if we assume you're right, then what? You make it seem as if it were somehow a bad thing for a Christian to take care of (as you say) "an ailing mother," for one thing.<BR/><BR/>Also, you say that Steve "has no accountability and is just a loose canon spewing his hatred of others through his blog on the internet." Wait a sec, hold up. Isn't this precisely what you're doing here and now though? What are you doing if not attacking Steve's character?<BR/><BR/>Speaking of "accountability," and being a "loose canon," who's holding you accountable? And aren't you a bit of a "loose canon" on the internet (not only here on the Dangerous Mind blog but in the past on Triablogue too)? Steve, for example, is in the public sphere, but we know precious little about you except that you say your name is "Robert." If hiding behind an online name -- "Robert," which may or may not be your real name -- and sniping at others like you're doing here with Steve isn't being a "loose canon," then I don't know what is.<BR/><BR/>The only other thing you've possibly revealed about yourself though, if memory serves -- didn't you at one point mention you're a prison chaplain? If you are, then I wonder how you'd judge yourself, by your own standard or yardstick? After all, if taking care of "an ailing mother" is somehow a negative thing to you, something to be bitter about as you suggest, then I can't imagine what ministering to prisoners must mean to you.<BR/><BR/>patrickPatrick Chanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16095377877712197984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-55562985460830381092008-10-17T14:14:00.000-07:002008-10-17T14:14:00.000-07:00Oh the irony! Steve Hays is attacked and ridiculed...Oh the irony! Steve Hays is attacked and ridiculed and mocked in a post decrying attacking, ridiculing, and mocking opponents! Vic, come to Steve's defense. Don't tell us all you were trying to do was gather the support of political leftists and theological Pelagians? Say it aint so.Maul P.https://www.blogger.com/profile/15227129983621069565noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-19885223552959706732008-10-17T12:25:00.000-07:002008-10-17T12:25:00.000-07:00Robert: ouch! PictureReally, though, such people f...Robert: ouch! <BR/><A HREF="http://media.canada.com/gallery/trekauc/9.jpg" REL="nofollow">Picture</A><BR/><BR/>Really, though, such people feed on attention so we should just starve them. Sort of like those advertising icons in the Simpsons episode.Blue Devil Knighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12045468316613818510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-52785308064309246602008-10-17T08:32:00.000-07:002008-10-17T08:32:00.000-07:00Hello Victor,“I don't know if any of you have been...Hello Victor,<BR/><BR/>“I don't know if any of you have been going over to Triablogue, but I have been treated over there to the harshest personal attacks I have ever received from anyone from Steve Hays. Compared to him, Steven Carr has been the model of politeness. To Hays, it isn't enough to say that I am backing the wrong candidate for President. I have been compared to Goebbels, called a Red Philosopher, a Baby Butcher's Best Friend, a poseur, a goose-stepping apparatchik for the left, a false philosopher and a false Christian, and even someone too stingy and selfish to help his own parents in their old age, since I said I was sure glad they got Social Security and Medicare when they advanced in age.”<BR/><BR/>Someone who writes this way about another believer is just acting like a jerk, plain and simple. But this is no surprise if you consider the source. Coming from Steve Hays who repeatedly engages in this kind of intentionally offensive rhetoric. He has no accountability and is just a loose canon spewing his hatred of others through his blog on the internet. I think part of the problem, part of his bitterness, comes from his life circumstances: if I were a little guy like him (a friend of his says he is only about 5 foot 6), about 50 years old, unmarried, without children and living with my ailing mother (a full time job in itself), and my **job** was as a teaching assistant, I might not be a happy camper either. He fancies himself a writer but his stuff lacks quality and so likely will only appear on his own blog.<BR/><BR/>Victor on your blog here, you provide a good example of a place where both believers and unbelievers can engage in rational and civil discussion of various issues. This is precisely the kind of thing that ought to be happening on the web. You can and should have discussions with people, even when they disagree with you, in a civil manner. There is no need for the kind of personal attacks you mention, and that you have endured from Hays. The verbal attacks contribute nothing to the discussion and only hamper a rational and intelligent discussion. Don’t let the jerks on the web get you down. You have a great blog here, keep up the good work.<BR/><BR/>RobertRoberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16907838048020669875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-51520155390055677482008-10-17T07:33:00.000-07:002008-10-17T07:33:00.000-07:00Illion: By you own asserted standard (which just h...Illion: <I>By you own asserted standard (which just happens to *not* be the Gospel), you stand accused of hypocrisy. For, after all, you have set yourself up as competent to judge Mr Hayes, and you are judging him, and it almost seems condemning him, for the "sin" of judging Mr Reppert's actions over the past few months.</I><BR/><BR/>Illion, you, too, are a victim of your own reasoning by making such a pronouncement. Unfortunately, we could go back and forth in such an infinite regress by accusing each other of being judegmental.<BR/><BR/>Unfortunately, I think your view of judgement is confused at best. The word "judge" can mean to discern between right and wrong, or it can mean to decide what punishment ought to be imposed on a criminal, or it can mean to presume to know the heart of another. In this case, I was discerning between right and wrong. Indeed, I made no pronouncement concerning punishment, or the state of Mr. Hays' heart (i.e., is he a Christian or not) or condeming him (as you claim).<BR/><BR/>I think James 5:19-20 puts it best: My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins. (NIV translation)<BR/><BR/>Judgement should be made with careful discernment. Condeming someone else for his sin when you yourself are sinning even worse is, obviously, what we shouldn't do.<BR/><BR/>On the other hand, if we take your view of judgment to its logical conclusion, then we cannot identify any wrongdoing by another person. Consequently, if I think the Holocaust was wrong and Hitler severly depraved (to put it mildly), then I guess you can call me judgemental.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-18323783674574957062008-10-17T06:59:00.000-07:002008-10-17T06:59:00.000-07:00Victor,I would just ignore the people at Triablogu...Victor,<BR/><BR/>I would just ignore the people at Triablogue. You can only teach someone what they are willing to learn, you can only engage critical thinking in people who value the same. On the entire first page, I saw not one glimpse of either tendency.One Browhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11938816242512563561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-83856348490171188472008-10-17T06:58:00.000-07:002008-10-17T06:58:00.000-07:00Talk about amusing incoherent self-refutation! (al...<I>Talk about amusing incoherent self-refutation! (along with the requisite misrepresentation and equivocation)</I><BR/><BR/>Well, I certainly apologize for any misrepresentation of your opinions. If you could explain what it was/they were, I'll be careful to not repeat them. There is absolutely no reason to misrepresent you.<BR/><BR/><I>One Brow, you're such a willful fool: you *choose* the intellectual dishonesty and self-contradiction you constantly spout.</I><BR/><BR/>I am quite convinced you have no choice in your positions. They are ass complex as you are capable of understanding, it would seem.<BR/><BR/><I>What the fool is trying to assert is that true and false are equivalent.</I><BR/><BR/>Just because both choices can be incorrect does not make them equivalent. For one thing, they would generally be divergent from an accurate representation of the situation for different reasons.<BR/><BR/><I>One Brow: "Thank you for telling us what part of your body does your thinking for you." <BR/><BR/>And you do your thinking about two inches away, the a southerly direction.</I><BR/><BR/>I disagree. However, even if that were true, I doubt I would brag about it and encourage others to do likewise.One Browhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11938816242512563561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-20436490886084359902008-10-16T18:55:00.000-07:002008-10-16T18:55:00.000-07:00It stands to reason that Mr Loftus, the definition...It stands to reason that Mr Loftus, the definition <I>par excellence</I> of the intellectually dishonest man, would show up and post a so-typically hypocritical rant.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Take a good look at Loftus, Mr Reppert, for that is what you are working yourself up to become.Ilíonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15339406092961816142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-13069217566064995402008-10-16T18:39:00.000-07:002008-10-16T18:39:00.000-07:00Vic, Steve Hays is not worth your time. He is a lo...Vic, Steve Hays is not worth your time. He is a low life who somehow read a lot of books and became highly educated. To argue with him is the wallow in the mire with a pig. I did that in the past and got soiled but he's not worth any intelligent person's time. I call on the <I>Secular Outpost</I> to remove him name from the list of recommended Blogs. Personally attacking you like he has done is the final straw. <BR/><BR/>Cheers.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com