tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post6060548657579958783..comments2024-03-27T15:34:14.749-07:00Comments on dangerous idea: Tim McGrew v. Peter Boghossian debateVictor Repperthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10962948073162156902noreply@blogger.comBlogger57125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-21362226507016409502015-09-02T09:36:25.357-07:002015-09-02T09:36:25.357-07:00Actually, McGrew made an incredibly bold bluff. ...Actually, McGrew made an incredibly bold bluff. The second definition of "faith" in the OED is "Strong belief in a religion doctrine based upon spiritual conviction rather than proof". Boghosian made two mistakes. Not knowing the OED by heart and assuming he was talking to an honest person. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16456931991959849788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-20318956048381656822014-05-29T17:09:26.967-07:002014-05-29T17:09:26.967-07:00"to be of much universal value"
So? You..."<i>to be of much universal value</i>"<br /><br />So? You asked, after all, for a personal list, and you got one. I'm not about to pass off someone else's list as my own.B. Prokophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10548980245078214688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-43574371526317848672014-05-29T16:36:25.581-07:002014-05-29T16:36:25.581-07:00Graham,
"Honestly, I'm-skeptical, this i...Graham,<br /><br />"Honestly, I'm-skeptical, this is too easy to be fun... "<br /><br />Easy if you don't bother to give due consideration to an argument, but just dismiss it flippantly, as you have done repeatedly. But don't bother. I have seen enough of your intellectual style already. The namecalling really puts a cap on the total lack of depth.<br /><br />By the way, where does the "Sceptics" part of your title come from, anyway?im-skepticalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08267710618719895303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-31749523153160886702014-05-29T16:04:30.495-07:002014-05-29T16:04:30.495-07:00Bob, much as I appreciate your list it is simply t...Bob, much as I appreciate your list it is simply too mired in its christianized context and far too unapologetically christo-centric to be of much universal value. You see and it might come as a surprise to you, Christianity is not universal and not universally accepted. Indeed the bulk of humanity, 5 out of the 7 billion, either have not heard of or reject christianity as a model. The first three on your list specifically excludes every other belief system that does not subscribe to the christian message. There is too much of a touch of arrogance about the 'rightness' of christianity which I daresay precludes it from being accepted as universal, even though the other seven are indeed general desirable outcomes for human society. <br /><br />I would much prefer a list that does not smell of any specific religious incense because the universality of the message, as history has shown so demonstrably, is inevitably lost in the squabble over which parochial religious prescription should represent humanity. If there is one thing from the bible that resonates with me as good advice it is Matthew 6:5-6.<br /><br />I know your intentions are good, but your rabidity for all things Jesus does not contribute towards a calmer, more inclusive community.Papalintonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03818630173726146048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-56955899739162311222014-05-29T15:03:52.000-07:002014-05-29T15:03:52.000-07:00Thanks SandS. It is indeed an American dysphemism...Thanks SandS. It is indeed an American dysphemism which I thought would be well known. Despite our close cultural heritage there are some little differences between Australia and US society and I try not to introduce too many Aussie idioms that might detract from the conversation. <br /><br />Incidentally, LapaPinton, whoever that is, is not me.<br /><br />Papalintonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03818630173726146048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-90533693160416050592014-05-29T13:33:29.479-07:002014-05-29T13:33:29.479-07:00Bite your tongue! It's a dingo-ism. Linton is ...Bite your tongue! It's a dingo-ism. Linton is Down Under.B. Prokophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10548980245078214688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-37811900588978383732014-05-29T12:58:50.431-07:002014-05-29T12:58:50.431-07:00Well, I never! I learned something from LapaPinton...Well, I never! I learned something from LapaPinton...a new word! "Milquetoast"<br /><br />Never come across that before...is that an Americanism?Saints and Scepticshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09133878366479064658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-1853343084878267712014-05-29T07:01:20.229-07:002014-05-29T07:01:20.229-07:00I inadvertently left off "environmental degra...I inadvertently left off "environmental degradation" from my list yesterday. Should be included under the Second Commandment, since despoiling the Earth is basically a slap in the face of God. Alternatively, it might be included under the Fourth, because destroying our children's heritage is the flip side of dishonoring our parents.B. Prokophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10548980245078214688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-50723466158395856022014-05-28T17:21:23.834-07:002014-05-28T17:21:23.834-07:00I like Bob's.I like Bob's.oozzielionelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00326968846352428451noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-14565027125117654262014-05-28T16:50:10.229-07:002014-05-28T16:50:10.229-07:00"I would be very interested in looking over y..."<i>I would be very interested in looking over your list of pressing moral and ethical matters of today.</i>"<br /><br />OK, I'll bite. Here's my list.<br /><br />1. Worshiping false gods. Examples of such false gods - money, possessions, blind or super patriotism, celebrities, rank, status, power.<br /><br />2. Taking the name of the Lord in vain. Includes debasing the language and the twisting meaning of words.<br /><br />3. Dishonoring the Sabbath. Failure to give one's self (!and others!) the time and space in which to set one's priorities straight, to realize what is truly important in life.<br /><br />4. Not honoring our elders. Trashing tradition without good reason. Failure to provide for our parents, veterans, the homeless, the mentally ill.<br /><br />5. Murder and violence. Includes violence in our culture and in our entertainment. Failure to properly regulate firearms. Abortion.<br /><br />6. Adultery. Includes pornography, divorce, pre-marital sex, and same-sex marriage.<br /><br />7. Theft. Includes economic injustice and failure to alleviate global poverty.<br /><br />8. Lying. Propaganda, censorship, loss of privacy, character assassination.<br /><br />9. Coveting your neighbor's property. Greed, envy, "keeping up with the Joneses".<br /><br />10. Coveting your neighbor's spouse. Failure to respect the most fundamental of society's boundaries.B. Prokophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10548980245078214688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-70046063953421599682014-05-28T16:35:00.639-07:002014-05-28T16:35:00.639-07:00Papa:
I tend to live in two moral planes. One pla...Papa:<br />I tend to live in two moral planes. One plane is interacting with the news, blogs, and talk radio. The ethical issue of the day occupies my thoughts. I interact on an intellectual level and sometimes get emotionally agitated. These issues rarely impact my daily life. It may make a difference when it comes time to vote or debate issues with my friends or family. These issues have potential to actually impact me, however, the actual impact is usually minimal. <br /><br />My real ethical life is in daily decisions in my relationships at home and work with people I care about. It is when I have an opportunity to help someone in need or on those rare occasions when my life matches my creed and I seek to do to others what I would wish they would do for me. <br /><br />My real ethical life is how I express my sexuality, whether I am truthful, whether I am compassionate and loving. It is even when I put the plastic bottle in the right trash container. Moral integrity is doing the right thing when no one is looking. It has very little to do with my position on political issues.<br /><br />If someone can measure moral behavior that actually makes a difference in the way people live, I would be interested in those results.oozzielionelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00326968846352428451noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-67171731569510418262014-05-28T16:13:21.791-07:002014-05-28T16:13:21.791-07:00"I think it is mistake to define morality by ...<i>"I think it is mistake to define morality by the pressing political issues of the day. The issues that rise to the top are often peripheral and avoid more important issues."</i> <br /><br />You can freely and cursorily claim this nonsense and yet cannot commit to illustrating what are pressing moral and ethical issues we face today. If you have not missed the point once again then your comment is little more than milquetoast vacillating. <br /><br />These are not political issues, they are moral and ethical issues. The political aspect of them is how they are dealt with and we know politics is the art of the possible, not necessarily driven by moral and ethical consideration as a primal factor. To categorize these issues 'rising to the top' as peripheral avoiding more important issues, bespeaks of a worrying ambivalence about what you think constitutes a moral or ethical issue. If you can't articulate them what good is your famous god-bestowed objective morality I hear so many other of the religiose bang on about?Papalintonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03818630173726146048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-42663695381230787552014-05-28T16:10:34.600-07:002014-05-28T16:10:34.600-07:00"That which can be asserted without evidence,... "That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence."<br /><br />Yes. No doubt about that.<br /><br />On an unrelated note. Have you noticed that a lot of your arguments get dismissed? <br /><br />Saints and Scepticshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09133878366479064658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-9316700838406407172014-05-28T16:08:05.737-07:002014-05-28T16:08:05.737-07:00Two people disagree about something religious.
T...<i>Two people disagree about something religious. <br /><br />Therefore one has been brainwashed; or both have been brainwashed.<br /><br />And the evidence for this is neither believes in the tooth fairy.</i><br /><br />What is this Papa -an argument or a zen koan??<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Saints and Scepticshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09133878366479064658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-54175293442965046642014-05-28T14:58:05.974-07:002014-05-28T14:58:05.974-07:00No, I got the point. If you craft your list of mo...No, I got the point. If you craft your list of moral criteria, you get the result you are looking for. The issues that qualify as "pressing" to politicians and media differ according to political leanings. The right and left have different favorite lists. The winner of the news cycle for the week is the side that gets their issues to the top of public interest.<br /><br />I am not sure if a politically neutral list of pressing issues is possible. It is certainly beyond my abilities at the moment.<br /><br />I think it is mistake to define morality by the pressing political issues of the day. The issues that rise to the top are often peripheral and avoid more important issues. <br /><br />It may seem that political left and right match religious left and right, but this is not always the case. It is only true if you are content with a cursory evaluation and if you preset your criteria to get the result you hope for.oozzielionelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00326968846352428451noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-15545304742055340942014-05-28T14:58:01.893-07:002014-05-28T14:58:01.893-07:00"You can't both be right."
But of c..."<i>You can't both be right.</i>"<br /><br />But of course we can. The differences between Catholics and Protestants pale in comparison to what they hold in common: The Nicene Creed, Baptism, the scriptures (well, 66 out of 73 books at any rate), etc. Heck, even the differences between a Christian and a Hindu, for instance, are nothing compared to the unbridgeable gulf between either faith and materialist atheism.B. Prokophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10548980245078214688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-87860842555767369672014-05-28T14:42:29.072-07:002014-05-28T14:42:29.072-07:00Saints and Sceptics says: "I learned it as a...Saints and Sceptics says: <i>"I learned it as a child; people in the mediaeval world shared my belief. <br />Therefore I am brainwashed... "</i><br /><br />I'd say, on the matter of god[s], yes. You divested yourself of the tooth fairy and Santa Claus which you learned were true as a child. However your recalcitrant persistence in believing this jesus fairy story is a measure of the level of brainwashing you received as a child. And more worrying people that have been brainwashed don't know they have been. [Oh God! Now he's going to tell me he was an atheist as a child] <br /><br />The two billion-odd Muslims and Hindus, as well as all atheists, including me, have no difficulty in rejecting your belief and do so with the ease of someone who subscribes to the axiom, "That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence." Remember the Pope is only a representative on earth for the Roman *Christian* god. Protestant christians, as you youself do, reject the notion the Pope speaks for you. <br /><br />However you wish to construe it, Christianity itself is a bit of a bunfight. Catholicism and Irish Evangelicalism. Which is the true form? Who decides which is man-made and which is god divined. The catholics, like Bob, 'know' the answer. You, defending your Irish Evangelical faith with 'rational' argument. So gents. Which has been brainwashed? The catholic? Or the Irish Evangelical? You can't both be right.Papalintonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03818630173726146048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-20918762552577661172014-05-28T13:57:23.243-07:002014-05-28T13:57:23.243-07:00oozielionel, you miss the point. Regardless of wh...oozielionel, you miss the point. Regardless of whether the list is politically left or right there more Christians agreeing governmental use of torture, many more Christians than non-believers that supported the death penalty, the punitive hitting of children, more Christians that advocated or practiced racism, sexism, homophobia, anti-Semitism, environmental degradation or human rights. If this list is leftish in outlook, then one can only deduce that most God believers and Christianity itself is rightist on the political spectrum.<br /><br />What list would you use to determine contemporary moral and ethical issues ? I would be very interested in looking over your list of pressing moral and ethical matters of today.Papalintonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03818630173726146048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-47466870468810149792014-05-28T12:45:45.044-07:002014-05-28T12:45:45.044-07:00Oh, and I really didn't contend anything at al...Oh, and I really didn't contend anything at all really, I'm-skeptical. <br />I just copy, click and paste your statements and do a little rewording to demonstrate that they require no thought at all. <br /><br />Saints and Scepticshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09133878366479064658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-7787675285616529552014-05-28T12:41:11.388-07:002014-05-28T12:41:11.388-07:00I learned it as a child; therefore I could not con...I learned it as a child; therefore I could not consider it as an adult...<br /><br />I'm sure you're smart enough to know that you're completely wrong. Perhaps you'd like to tell me how people cannot be brainwashed, or become victims of intellectual fashion, as adults?<br /><br />Saints and Scepticshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09133878366479064658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-27195555372320107192014-05-28T12:37:51.147-07:002014-05-28T12:37:51.147-07:00I learned it as a child; people in the mediaeval w...I learned it as a child; people in the mediaeval world shared my belief. <br /><br />Therefore I am brainwashed...<br /><br />So there goes my belief that humans have rights!<br /><br />What kind of logic is that?<br /><br />Loftus logic!<br /><br />Honestly, I'm-skeptical, this is too easy to be fun... <br /><br />Saints and Scepticshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09133878366479064658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-13749495790238942332014-05-28T10:46:38.519-07:002014-05-28T10:46:38.519-07:00oozie,
As what Ilion terms a "bloody minded ...oozie,<br /><br />As what Ilion terms a "bloody minded leftist" myself, I agree that the list is heavily biased (to the left). Could have come straight from MSNBC.B. Prokophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10548980245078214688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-91694703480381130872014-05-28T09:10:18.417-07:002014-05-28T09:10:18.417-07:00@Papa:
I found your link to evidence about the mo...@Papa:<br /><br />I found your link to evidence about the morality of atheists interesting. This is their basis: "On basic questions of morality and human decency— issues such as governmental use of torture, the death penalty, punitive hitting of children, racism, sexism, homophobia, anti-Semitism, environmental degradation or human rights — the irreligious tend to be more ethical than their religious peers, particularly compared with those who describe themselves as very religious." Although some in the list would be important in any list, many of these criteria are slanted heavily left and heavily political. Also, I would not call this list "basic" since it includes some complex issues. oozzielionelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00326968846352428451noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-83877908082478011382014-05-28T06:47:37.310-07:002014-05-28T06:47:37.310-07:00Bob,
The real funny part is that Skeppy makes sta...Bob,<br /><br />The real funny part is that Skeppy makes statements like: <i>but atheists are indoctrinated and don't ever consider the evidence objectively. A very interesting thesis, but I'm sure he's smart enough to know it's completely wrong</i> while atheists leaders have already completely undermined it. Take Dawkins little statement:<br /><br /><i>I suspect that most of our regular readers here would agree that ridicule, of a humorous nature, is likely to be more effective than the sort of snuggling-up and head-patting that Jerry is attacking. I lately started to think that we need to go further: go beyond humorous ridicule, sharpen our barbs to a point where they really hurt.<br /><br />Michael Shermer, Michael Ruse, Eugenie Scott and others are probably right that contemptuous ridicule is not an expedient way to change the minds of those who are deeply religious. But I think we should probably abandon the irremediably religious precisely because that is what they are – irremediable. I am more interested in the fence-sitters who haven’t really considered the question very long or very carefully. And I think that they are likely to be swayed by a display of naked contempt. Nobody likes to be laughed at. Nobody wants to be the butt of contempt.</i><br /><br />What does he think a recruitment strategy based solely on peer-pressure, emotional and intellectual bullying; emotional blackmail, etc... is? Because it ain't asking somebody to "consider the evidence objectively."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-77193405695155846612014-05-28T06:41:04.447-07:002014-05-28T06:41:04.447-07:00Skep,
Once again, either consciously twisting wor...Skep,<br /><br />Once again, either consciously twisting words with malicious intent, or displaying a complete inability to comprehend the written word.<br /><br />I did not say the First Century converts to Christianity were skeptics - I said they were not ignorant and superstitious.<br /><br />Note my sentence, "So much for superstitious credulity." I did <b>not</b> write, "See how many skeptics there were."<br /><br />But the far bigger point is that you knee-jerk dismissed the historically verifiable conversion of multitudes of people to Christianity, despite not having their minds "made up" prior to hearing the Gospel, solely on the grounds that these people lived in the wrong time. That's not an argument, it's not reasoning - it's just pure chronological snobbery. How convenient to be able to dismiss anything that might support Christianity simply because it occurred sometime in the distant past, while simultaneously bringing up potential negatives (e.g., the Inquisition) despite their also belonging to that very same "discredited" past. You'd be thrown out on your ass in any scientific peer review process for such selective and highly prejudicial picking and choosing of evidence.<br /><br />There's a word for such activity - unethical.B. Prokophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10548980245078214688noreply@blogger.com