tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post4867903874761077373..comments2024-03-18T11:10:18.708-07:00Comments on dangerous idea: On trying to get things right: Why I think the New Atheism is bound to backfireVictor Repperthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10962948073162156902noreply@blogger.comBlogger40125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-50227249336616883532010-04-21T21:09:40.395-07:002010-04-21T21:09:40.395-07:00I agree with your point in principle. Unfortunate...I agree with your point in principle. Unfortunately I think we are becoming a culture that really does embrace such nastiness in the public discourse, both left and right. (I notice you allude to this yourself in one of your responses, with your remark about televangelists.)<br /><br />If you look at the tenor of debate on the news and on the Internet--sadly, it most often consists of people "flaming" each other rather than making substantive points and respecting each other as people.<br /><br />I am seeing it on both sides, unfortunately--and I think it is furthered by the anonymity of the Internet and the vitriol some people feel excused to unleash under those circumstances. And if the public discourse as a whole remains as acrimonious as it now...honestly, what hope do we have of bringing the tone back down?<br /><br />I do a lot more writing on this subject--nothing anywhere near as erudite--on my own blog. And maybe I have a few ideas...but I'd like to see what role you think that we as Christians can play in not just criticizing but bringing down the tone of the rhetoric.M. C. Evershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00514967652907935080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-47824035686144725422010-04-21T13:12:25.386-07:002010-04-21T13:12:25.386-07:00Why don't Christians simply produce somebody w...Why don't Christians simply produce somebody who named himself as seeing Jesus do a miracle instead of whining constantly about Dawkins?<br /><br /> <br />I think we had some people on here make those sorts of claims a couple of years back.Victor Repperthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10962948073162156902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-35150181787099170922010-04-20T10:16:53.846-07:002010-04-20T10:16:53.846-07:00BDK: "The problem is that most people on bot...<b>BDK: </b><i>"The problem is that most people on both sides don't know the details of the arguments. It isn't just the village atheist that is unfamiliar with Craig's most recent volley in the cosmological argument. The folks on the pulpit, the teachers, the parents, the people that actually help folks decide on the issues, are providing the same arguments that Dawkins and others are refuting! Tht's why Dawkins work resonates with people so much. <br /><br />The New Atheists just need to refute High School theism, not PhD theism."</i><br /><br />-quoted for truthShacklemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01190598990748327537noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-15506090963758247492010-04-20T07:56:12.714-07:002010-04-20T07:56:12.714-07:00To the anonymous person named chocolate:
For me ...To the anonymous person named chocolate: <br /><br />For me this is purely an item of interest, not an argument I'm advocating. But if the defining characteristic of the NA's is "insult" and railing against the "stupidity of belief," then take a good look at Joseph Lewis's pamphlet <i>An Atheist Manifesto</i> and then tell me what is different from him and Hitchens or Dawkins? I see no difference, except that Lewis doesn't seem concerned about weapons of mass destruction in a world with religion precisely because times have changed. <a href="http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2010/04/joseph-lewis-pioneering-american.html" rel="nofollow">Check it out</a>!<br /><br />Again, this is a matter of interest to me, that's all. It's a historical question, not a polemical one.<br /><br />Cheers.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-23299369759154705212010-04-20T07:38:46.339-07:002010-04-20T07:38:46.339-07:00When you're talking about actual arguments the...When you're talking about actual arguments there is nothing new about the new atheism John. You are correct in stating that it's what makes them stand out from the rest of the atheist crowd, but I would argue that it's hardly a substantial conotribution, and CERTAINLY not a positive contribution if that's the point you intend to make(that would be a strange argument... I thought you were turned away from the fire-and-brimstone preaching of some Christians, why would you then appreciate it on the flip side?).<br /><br />Clearly they are known more for their rantings on the "stupidity of belief" than raising matters about the threats of religiously-inspired nuclear war(this was also the supposed goal of Bill Maher's turd of a movie, but I might say he didn't make it very well by pissing away 75% of the movie going around interviewing the religious fringe about their sillier beliefs). In fact, I'm raising the stakes on this and stating that "revealing the evils of religion" is not truly the goal of their work... seriously, what does insult do to irrational people? It makes them even angrier. Have the NAs concocted some psychologically proven method of converting through insult, or are they just trying to have their cake and eat it by being able to mock and accuse at the same time? Methinks the latter.chocolate dynamitenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-16439977669936099852010-04-20T03:15:15.015-07:002010-04-20T03:15:15.015-07:00Boy this is an old post.
Tom Flynn recently argu...Boy this is an old post. <br /><br />Tom Flynn recently argued <a href="http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?section=library&page=flynn_30_3" rel="nofollow">there isn't anything new about the New Atheism</a>. I emailed him with some objections, that the New Atheism has a defining characteristic of alarm about religion in an era of nuclear weapons and he told me about an atheism symposium that took place after the release of Hal Lindsey's <i>The Late Great Planet Earth</i>.<br /><br />He argues there isn't anything new about the New Atheism.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-47758050732308685632010-04-19T23:33:18.623-07:002010-04-19T23:33:18.623-07:00the trouble with Dawkins is that he has not taken ...the trouble with Dawkins is that he has not taken the trouble to read those Christians who claim that the bread and wine have changed into the Body and Blood of Jesus.<br /><br />Or taken the trouble to read those Christians who deny that the bread and wine change into the Body and Blood of Jesus.<br /><br />As Christians have no actual facts, they can write endless books making up anything they like or denying it, as takes their fancy.<br /><br />That is one trouble with Christian theology.<br /><br />it is as soundly based as Islamic theology, or the theology behind Odin.Steven Carrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11983601793874190779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-68011954845503509462010-04-19T23:29:45.766-07:002010-04-19T23:29:45.766-07:00So Victor still can't put a single argument of...So Victor still can't put a single argument of the New Atheists on his article, even after redating it.<br /><br />While he complains that the main problem with New Atheists is that they do not understand the sophisticated theology behind Christian beliefs, such as presumably the Christian belief that Jesus told Peter how to get free money by looking in the mouth of a fish.<br /><br />Why don't Christians simply produce somebody who named himself as seeing Jesus do a miracle instead of whining constantly about Dawkins?Steven Carrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11983601793874190779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-34835599985182845612010-04-19T19:33:42.681-07:002010-04-19T19:33:42.681-07:00UnkleE: I agree for the most part.
I couldn't...UnkleE: I agree for the most part.<br /><br />I couldn't even finish Dawkins' book, frankly, as he was playing so fast and loose with the arguments. I got through his section on Aquinas, and was just like "Are you F-ing kidding me?" and I stopped there.Blue Devil Knighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12045468316613818510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-22876166378616343032010-04-19T19:17:56.896-07:002010-04-19T19:17:56.896-07:00The Courtier's Reply is especially hilarious w...The Courtier's Reply is especially hilarious when it's used by fundamentalist creationists to justify their not having to know anything about evolutionary theory. <br /><br />Isn't it great to have an excuse to not have to do all that reading?PatrickHnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-87144576109320973692010-04-19T17:34:37.497-07:002010-04-19T17:34:37.497-07:00UnkleE
... nailed it.UnkleE <br /><br />... nailed it.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04793417120098322488noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-1115106894153151342010-04-19T15:46:18.958-07:002010-04-19T15:46:18.958-07:00Contrary to you, BDK, I thought Myers' piece w...Contrary to you, BDK, I thought Myers' piece was about as intellectually dishonest and arrogant as anything I have ever seen. There is a world of difference between the technical arguments of academic philosophers and popular apologetics a la WL Craig and co, just as there is a world of difference between a technical paper on cosmology and the popular writings of Paul Davies. But Davies does his readers the service of understanding the technical writings and explaining them in laypersons' terms rather than just dismissing them.<br /><br />Courtier's Reply? I think we should call it the <i>"I'm Ignorant Because We All Know I'm Right Evasion."</i><br /><br />Imagine if someone responded to Dawkins' <i>Selfish Gene</i> or <i>The God Delusion</i> by saying: <i>"I read the preface and I could tell it was all wrong, so I didn't read any more."</i> They would be greeted with hoots of derision by the atheists. Myers' and Dawkins' comments ought to receive the same treatment from fair-minded unbelievers - and to some degree they are.unkleEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12207729664951716799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-89717570392209391392010-04-19T12:06:08.210-07:002010-04-19T12:06:08.210-07:00The comments about genocide illustrate a feature o...The comments about genocide illustrate a feature of the atheism debate.<br /><br />It is assumed that theism=conservative, nay fundamentalist christianity, the sort that leads WLC to justify genocide. <br /><br />But all Christians are not conservative theologically, and all theists are not Christians.<br /><br /><br />I should have said "try to justify genocide" Of course I think he fails. <br /><br />Regarding Dawkins/ I read his book and it made me wince, it was so embarrassing.<br /><br />If Dawkins wants to argue against Craig's belief that God is in favor of genocide (or was , in the past) then he should argue for that and not claim he is arguing for atheism or against theism.<br /><br />Dawkins makes atheists look ignorant. So, ironically, by being the face of atheism Dawkins encourages people to take theism seriously. It is akin to the television pastors, who did incline me towards atheism as a kid.Gordon Knighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03223834584232283601noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-78768499157361611062010-04-19T07:28:40.133-07:002010-04-19T07:28:40.133-07:00The Courtier's Reply is hilarious. To anyone t...The Courtier's Reply is hilarious. To anyone that has suffered through an upper-level philosophy course, it will strike a chord.<br /><br />I usualy don't like PZ Myers attitude, but that's just funny.Blue Devil Knighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12045468316613818510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-73330103549728071312010-04-19T07:22:42.321-07:002010-04-19T07:22:42.321-07:00Even the atheist philosophers that take the argume...Even the atheist philosophers that take the arguments too seriously as a scholary topic are looked at as a bit dull-headed, like they are playing in the nursery rather than with the adults. <br /><br />It is assumed that refuting theist arguments is shooting fish in a barrel. Perhaps it is OK to do public service and teach philosophy of religion, or write a popular book like Kitcher did for Creationism in response to those kooky creationists. But to make such work a serious endeavor is to admit you aren't good enough to do real philosophy. <br /><br />I'm not defending any of the above, just noting common psychosocial factors that will tend to block people from taking the theists too seriously. <br /><br />Of course it implies that you will end up with somewhat superficial atheistic philosophy of religion. Know enough to educate your smarter undergrads about the main issues, and to point them in the right direction if they are interested in further study, and then get back to your real work.<br /><br />Will this backfire? I doubt it, it's been like that for a very long time is my impression. <br /><br />The problem is that most people on both sides don't know the details of the arguments. It isn't just the village atheist that is unfamiliar with Craig's most recent volley in the cosmological argument. The folks on the pulpit, the teachers, the parents, the people that actually help folks decide on the issues, are providing the same arguments that Dawkins and others are refuting! Tht's why Dawkins work resonates with people so much. <br /><br />The New Atheists just need to refute High School theism, not PhD theism.Blue Devil Knighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12045468316613818510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-25696615755979569722010-04-18T20:53:42.660-07:002010-04-18T20:53:42.660-07:00I spent my time cranking out mathematical and chem...I spent my time cranking out mathematical and chemical equations at the university without delving much into philosophy. However when I did have some philosophical questions that troubled me on my walks from chemistry lab to English Lit., I found professor's with belief much more fair to my questions than the atheist. <br /><br />My atheistic professors were smarter than me, had more facts, but left me somehow, in a human sense, unimpressed. Perhaps it was like asking questions about marriage from someone smarter than you and recently divorced. They can outwit me about the value of marriage, but, after losing the argument, going home to my wife who I have been through the ups and downs, the doubts and strains, the financial and health problems with, and thinking that the depth of experience in keeping my vows is something the divorced person will never know.<br /> <br />Sorry for those who lost their faith. I’m glad my remains through the doubts and strains.Gimli 4 the Westhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09077653879666675956noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-71098987938606765452010-04-18T18:58:54.629-07:002010-04-18T18:58:54.629-07:00Does WLC not try to justify genocide? I thought h...Does WLC not try to justify genocide? I thought he thought that God's command to commit genocide was the justification. Maybe someone could clarify.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-11722934514888287392008-08-26T13:51:00.000-07:002008-08-26T13:51:00.000-07:00Just an FYI. I found audio of Dawkins trying to re...Just an FYI. I found audio of Dawkins trying to respond to the Argument from Reason:<BR/><BR/>http://libwww.freelibrary.org/podcast/media/20061102-richard.mp3geoffrobinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14949411893531888555noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-81492089677733262782008-08-06T11:14:00.000-07:002008-08-06T11:14:00.000-07:00How was Dawkins misrepresenting Craig when he said...How was Dawkins misrepresenting Craig when he said that reading Craig's justification of genocide was 'dumbfoundedly, staggeringly awful' and that people should rub their eyes to make sure they are not having a bad dream?Steven Carrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11983601793874190779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-14230504898969094562008-08-06T09:46:00.000-07:002008-08-06T09:46:00.000-07:00Swinburne is not theologian?Why then does he write...Swinburne is not theologian?<BR/><BR/>Why then does he write books about theology?Steven Carrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11983601793874190779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-8717213790366144502008-08-06T09:28:00.000-07:002008-08-06T09:28:00.000-07:00John,I take it what you're saying doesn't go for R...John,<BR/><BR/>I take it what you're saying doesn't go for Russell, though, seeing as, being a philosopher and all, he presumably could've got Aquinas' cosmological argument right if he'd wanted to?<BR/><BR/>Victor has made a <A HREF="http://dangerousidea.blogspot.com/2006/12/dawkins-on-c-s-lewis-and-trilemma.html" REL="nofollow">similar complaint</A> against Dawkins in the past, namely, that he makes a hash of the trilemma. Popularising is one thing, but it doesn't give anyone the excuse to misrepresent their opponents.<BR/><BR/>You may be different; I don't know, I haven't read you book. But that doesn't make the charge of bigotry against Dawkins go away.<BR/><BR/>Steven,<BR/><BR/>Perhaps you could shed some light on why it is that Dawkins repeatedly refers to Swinburne, a philosopher in a chair of philosophy at Dawkins' own university, as a "theologian"?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07342391408412861663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-41526897439755367472008-08-06T02:45:00.000-07:002008-08-06T02:45:00.000-07:00Dawkins , of course, has read Swinburne, and quote...Dawkins , of course, has read Swinburne, and quotes him in 'The God Delusion'.<BR/><BR/>Dawkins was appalled by the callousness of Swinburne who relegated human suffering as something to be explained away as not touching his precious god.Steven Carrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11983601793874190779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-39697668136253953452008-08-06T02:19:00.000-07:002008-08-06T02:19:00.000-07:00Vic, name me one atheist scholar who understands t...Vic, name me one atheist scholar who understands the philosophical writings of a J.L. Mackie and who also has a good grasp of science and of Biblical studies/theology? I know of none. Correct me if I'm wrong, and I might be. But atheist scholars either know a great deal of science, or of philosophy, or of Biblical studies (as in the SBL). <BR/><BR/>Since it's practically impossible to be a scholar in the philosophy of religion, science, and Biblical studies all at the same time, then the person who knows enough about all three disciplines who combines the results of these scholars into a readable book has done the world a real service. That's what I attempted to do.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-73287354015796715472008-08-06T02:03:00.000-07:002008-08-06T02:03:00.000-07:00Vic, scholars mainly talk to themselves. They like...Vic, scholars mainly talk to themselves. They like the feel of another scholar's palm patting them on the back. Marx said something to the effect that the goal of philosophy is to change the world. Who's J.L. Mackie, anyway? Not a household name, right? The arguments of the scholars must be translated down to the average person. Someone's got to do it. The writer who does this is important in the whole chain of reasoning. Most of the dangerous books in the history of the world have been the ones that the masses could understand. Baysian analysis? Come on. When Swinburne uses it to show that if God exists then it's 97% probable Jesus arose from the dead, only a dimwit would think understanding Bayesian calculations alone gets us to the truth about things.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-40848591228900908032008-08-05T22:38:00.000-07:002008-08-05T22:38:00.000-07:00If Dawkins is so easy to refute, why did a Real Ph...If Dawkins is so easy to refute, why did a Real Philosopher like Alvin Plantinga make such a pigs-ear of his response to Dawkins?<BR/><BR/>Why were people like Eagleton reduced to saying that listening to Dawkins talk about Christianity based on his knowledge of the Bible was like listening to somebody talk about biology based on a knowledge of the British Book of Birds?<BR/><BR/>Is Christianity really so terribly complicated that nobody can read the Bible and then be qualified to speak on the subject?<BR/><BR/>Is there a footnote at the back saying 'Alving Plantinga explains all this much better than Jesus?'Steven Carrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11983601793874190779noreply@blogger.com