tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post3561747022199651051..comments2024-03-28T12:34:14.649-07:00Comments on dangerous idea: Religion plus leads to violence. So does atheism plus. Victor Repperthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10962948073162156902noreply@blogger.comBlogger53125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-29846575297395721542017-07-07T12:11:15.121-07:002017-07-07T12:11:15.121-07:00Victor Reppert said...
"To use those text to...Victor Reppert said...<br /><br />"To use those text to justify attacking a standing target like the World Trade Centers is to take those texts out of context."<br />--I wish that were true, but the words of Allah clearly instruct in violent conquest, terror, and subjugation.<br /><br />The example of Muhammad clearly demonstrate invasion, murder, robbery, rape, conquest, torture, subjugation, an extortion.<br /><br />" "Women should be silent in church." Most conservative Christians realize that the contingencies of the time and situation led Paul to make that statement, and that it would be a mistake to apply it literally to the church in the present day."<br />--Why? Can't God inspire instructions that are applicable to all times? <br /><br />" To take another example, it can easily be argued that given the way homosexuality was practiced in the Greco-Roman world, Paul had ample reason to condemn what he saw going on around him."<br />--The way homosexuality is practiced is that 2 men have sex with each other or 2 women has sex with each other. It was a sin from Moses to Paul, and that brackets the whole thing.<br /><br />" But Christian differ as to whether these condemnations should be applied to homosexuality in general in the present day, or whether they are bound to their time and place."<br />--Wishful thinking by caring people who can't stand what the Bible actually says so they invent rationalizations to have it their way instead of the way of the Word.<br /><br />" There were four different schools of thought in the Sunni tradition as to how you apply the Qur'an to a different situation... But they weren't just uneducated about what their texts said."<br />--The more one applies the texts the more oppressive and violent one becomes. Some schools make a great effort to water them down and turn a blind eye to all the violence and debauchery in the texts, but the texts remain a landmine for the young, a lurking source of religiously commanded violence.<br /><br />The rationale for suicide jihad is clear, Allah promised a direct path to paradise for those who fight and die in the service of Allah. The attacks of 9/11 were done because of the promise of paradise, as these many texts clearly promise:<br />http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/suicide-bombing.aspx<br /><br /><br /> July 07, 2017 11:36 AM StardustyPsychehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12493629973262220492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-85097244694004879692017-07-07T11:36:19.962-07:002017-07-07T11:36:19.962-07:00How you go from texts to application is a big issu...How you go from texts to application is a big issue, and it was recognized in the Islamic tradition as early as the 8th Century. The violent texts seem to presuppose a context of open battle where Islamic soldiers are fighting against pagan soldiers, as in the Battle of Mecca.To use those text to justify attacking a standing target like the World Trade Centers is to take those texts out of context. <br /><br />In the Christian tradition, people who get different messages from the same Scripture are operating with different hermeneutics. Let's take "Women should be silent in church." Most conservative Christians realize that the contingencies of the time and situation led Paul to make that statement, and that it would be a mistake to apply it literally to the church in the present day. But some are literal about it. Both of them can read, but they use different principles of application. <br /><br />To take another example, it can easily be argued that given the way homosexuality was practiced in the Greco-Roman world, Paul had ample reason to condemn what he saw going on around him. But Christian differ as to whether these condemnations should be applied to homosexuality in general in the present day, or whether they are bound to their time and place. <br /><br /> There were four different schools of thought in the Sunni tradition as to how you apply the Qur'an to a different situation. One school, the Hanbalite school, was very strict and literal, but there were three others. Muslims lived in different places than Arabia, and some saw rules made for Arabia that they thought might not straightforwardly apply in, say Baghdad. But others thought this this freedom of application led to loose morals, and different Muslim came down in different places on this. But they weren't just uneducated about what their texts said. Victor Repperthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10962948073162156902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-46704882432708126522017-07-07T09:41:31.563-07:002017-07-07T09:41:31.563-07:00SteveK said...
" Then none of the actions...SteveK said...<br /><br />" Then none of the actions/behaviors you're talking about have resulted in a demonstrably true moral fact"<br />--Indeed.<br /><br />" that needs fixing."<br />--What does "need" mean in this context?<br /><br />Do we remain paralyzed into inaction absent an absolute proof? Human beings function based on personal probability estimates, without absolute proof.<br /><br /><br /> July 07, 2017 8:17 AM StardustyPsychehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12493629973262220492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-4847528711997193642017-07-07T08:17:01.047-07:002017-07-07T08:17:01.047-07:00Then none of the actions/behaviors you're talk...Then none of the actions/behaviors you're talking about have resulted in a demonstrably true moral fact that needs fixing. SteveKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00497892283006396471noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-24310331498609056062017-07-07T07:59:43.584-07:002017-07-07T07:59:43.584-07:00SteveK said...
" Dusty needs to argue for...SteveK said...<br /><br />" Dusty needs to argue for an objective morality"<br />--I never argued for an objective morality in the sense of an absolute moral proposition or demonstrably true moral fact.<br /><br />How did you get that false impression?<br /><br /><br /> July 06, 2017 8:50 PMStardustyPsychehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12493629973262220492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-72566794929702642302017-07-06T20:50:39.045-07:002017-07-06T20:50:39.045-07:00Dusty needs to argue for an objective morality to ...Dusty needs to argue for an objective morality to make his case against religion but I don't think he can pull it off.SteveKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00497892283006396471noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-44890354200296345172017-07-03T10:57:36.022-07:002017-07-03T10:57:36.022-07:00grodrigues said...
@Stardusty Psyche:
&qu...grodrigues said...<br /><br /> @Stardusty Psyche:<br /> "You think atheism is disconnected from the killings you cited."<br /><br />" I never said that."<br />--Hmm, so how is atheism connected then?<br /><br /> But this is pointless; you can't even stick to what I actually said, <br />--You said "The atheist-marxist regime under Staline killed 20 million" in the context of an implied link between atheism and incitement to violence.<br /><br />But you won't say what that link is.<br /><br />We could also say <br />"The white male regime under Staline killed 20 million"<br />or<br />"The Russian regime under Staline killed 20 million"<br />or<br />"The homo sapiens regime under Staline killed 20 million"<br /><br />So what? How are any of those attributes linked to the killing?<br /><br />"you can't even stick to what I actually said"<br />--All you've done is throw out some disconnected terms and fail to support them.<br /><br /><br /> July 03, 2017 3:24 AMStardustyPsychehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12493629973262220492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-32259374583785379142017-07-03T03:24:45.876-07:002017-07-03T03:24:45.876-07:00@Stardusty Psyche:
"You think atheism is dis...@Stardusty Psyche:<br /><br />"You think atheism is disconnected from the killings you cited."<br /><br />I never said that.<br /><br />But this is pointless; you can't even stick to what I actually said, but have to fabricate lies at every turn so as to not have to recognize the major idiotic blunders you commit all the time.grodrigueshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12366931909873380710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-930237948795785032017-07-02T18:57:28.554-07:002017-07-02T18:57:28.554-07:00Victor Reppert said...
" And that's j...Victor Reppert said...<br /><br />" And that's just Islam. To say that the only faithful version of Islam is the terrorist version strikes me as just silly."<br />--I wish it were. Yes, I know it is hard to believe, but it is actually true that the radicalization is really just religious education. The texts are just that bad.<br /><br />" And then you have to show that somehow religion is the causal factor that produces the violence."<br />--What does the terrorist shout before the act? God is great. This is for God.<br /><br />Have you read the publications of the IS? Pick any issue at random, it is dripping with religious motivation for everything they do.<br />https://clarionproject.org/islamic-state-isis-isil-propaganda-magazine-dabiq-50/<br /><br /><br />For a Christian God is love. But Allah does not love the unbeliever. <br />Jesus said the meek shall inherit the Earth. Allah said to strike at their necks.<br />John 8:7 is poignant piece of beautiful literature. Allah lists the many penalties of amputations and death.<br /><br />So, for the Christian it can be very difficult to accept that a major world religion in the Abrahamic family is so fundamentally violent and debauched.<br /><br />" So, how do you explain violence in the interests of secular ideologies, which have a far higher death toll than the religious ones."<br />--Different motivations for different people.<br /><br />" Atheism was not incidental to Soviet and Maoist communism,"<br />--The average Russian or Chinese wanted to throw off the dictatorial ruler and was taken in by a system that promised pure egalitarianism, from each according to his ability, to each according to his need.<br /><br />Marxist doctrine, written in the American civil war era, called for a temporary dictatorship as a necessary transitional stage. That is where the ruthless dictators set their hooks.<br /><br />" it was pretty critical to it."<br />--I don't think not god motivated people to kill. People did not cry out for blood in the name of not god.<br /><br />Communism simply does not work because it denies a key factor of human nature, that people work for themselves and their families, not for some broad concept of an egalitarian utopia. When the system fails to produce, people starve. When the people tire of dictatorship the ruthless dictator purges millions.<br /><br />The link from Islamic texts to Islamic debauchery is direct, demonstrable, and not rationally deniable.<br /><br />The disbelief in god has no demonstrable motivating effect driving people to suppress their inherent normal socialization.<br /><br />Dictators do not incite their followers to kill because not god calls for killing. They invent scapegoats such as the Jews, or call for restoration of national pride, or for the defense of the nation or of the revolution.<br /><br />Atheism simply is not the direct motivator to debauchery that Islam is.<br /><br /><br /> July 02, 2017 1:14 AMStardustyPsychehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12493629973262220492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-65120115750952080932017-07-02T18:49:44.725-07:002017-07-02T18:49:44.725-07:00@Strawdusty,
--A "radicalized" or "...@Strawdusty,<br /><br /><b>--A "radicalized" or "extremist" Muslim is just a Muslim who has decided to bypass the watered down teachings of his elders and go straight to the Quran and Sunnah, and possibly The Life of Muhammad by Ibn Ishaq. </b><br /><br /><br /><b>--Since 9/11 no terrorists from the banned countries have carried out attacks on US soil, and all such attacks by foreigners have been carried out by individuals not on the list.<br /><br />So Trump wants to block the folks who don't attack us and let in the folks who do attack us. Brilliant.<br /></b><br /><br />One would think that if someone held <b>all</b> Muslims wanted to kill all infidels, then one would think that allowing in more of those who want to kill us would not be a good thing. It is truly an amazing thing to see this kind of reasoning. bmillerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05855545675821692382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-7247106382999034742017-07-02T18:17:36.393-07:002017-07-02T18:17:36.393-07:00Victor Reppert said...
" Look, it is as e...Victor Reppert said...<br /><br />" Look, it is as easy as pie to find religious people doing bad things in the name of religion. Sadly, ISIS and those like ISIS provide headline examples. But then you have to make the argument that the likes of Khizr Khan and Hakeem Olajuwon, two Muslims who don't practice violence and oppose violence, are somehow bad Muslims who don't know how to read."<br />--They are Muslims who are ignoring the clear instructions and example of Muhammad.<br /><br />" Good luck with that. Do you know that there are four schools of Sunni interpretation and two of Shiite interpretation? These concern how you go from the Qur'an to actual practice."<br />--A "radicalized" or "extremist" Muslim is just a Muslim who has decided to bypass the watered down teachings of his elders and go straight to the Quran and Sunnah, and possibly The Life of Muhammad by Ibn Ishaq. There the young man finds all the gory details of highway robbery, invasion, mass executions, the taking of married sex slaves, multiple wives, death penalties for apostasy and homosexuality, wife beating, theocratic rule, and subjugation of the conquered through extortion and second class status.<br /><br />The non-violent elders sowed the seeds for this return to fundamentalist Islam by telling the young man again and again that the words of the Quran are all from Allah, and Muhammad is the exemplary man to be emulated in all his ways.<br /><br /><br />" But then, maybe the travel ban is OK after all."<br />--Since 9/11 no terrorists from the banned countries have carried out attacks on US soil, and all such attacks by foreigners have been carried out by individuals not on the list.<br /><br />So Trump wants to block the folks who don't attack us and let in the folks who do attack us. Brilliant.<br /><br /><br /> July 02, 2017 1:09 AMStardustyPsychehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12493629973262220492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-32902561379682441702017-07-02T17:54:02.596-07:002017-07-02T17:54:02.596-07:00grodrigues said...
@Stardusty Psyche:
&q...grodrigues said...<br /><br /> @Stardusty Psyche:<br /><br /> "--The dichotomy is this<br /> Atheist therefore millions killed<br /> Not atheist therefore not millions killed"<br /><br />" I never said anything approaching that or even so much as implied it. "<br />--Oh, that's a good thing then.<br /><br />You think atheism is disconnected from the killings you cited. At last we agree.<br /><br />However, the same cannot be said for religious killing. People do in fact kill directly because of their religion, Islam and Judaism being the most obvious modern day examples, along with Japanese emperor worship and others in the not too distant past.<br /><br />So we agree then:<br />Religion is a major direct cause for vast murder and mayhem in the world today.<br />Atheism is not.<br /><br /><br /> July 02, 2017 9:00 AM StardustyPsychehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12493629973262220492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-41417682738888709652017-07-02T09:00:21.663-07:002017-07-02T09:00:21.663-07:00@Stardusty Psyche:
"--The dichotomy is this
...@Stardusty Psyche:<br /><br />"--The dichotomy is this<br />Atheist therefore millions killed<br />Not atheist therefore not millions killed"<br /><br />I never said anything approaching that or even so much as implied it. That you cannot read elementary English and lie about what other people say, in a very plain way, is your problem and your problem alone.grodrigueshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12366931909873380710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-35312597808797740822017-07-02T02:08:26.682-07:002017-07-02T02:08:26.682-07:00"Religious" is too broad a term for reas..."Religious" is too broad a term for reasonable people to use it as a description of a class of people or as a motivation. Saying "scents are nasty" because a skunk smells bad is equally valid. Only anti-theists use that line of "reasoning" to condemn Christians because of Muslim terrorists.<br /><br />Atheists may be able to try and run from communism as a subset due to motivational power, but anti-theists are inextricably tied to it. Anti-theism is a core component of the most murderous ideology in history.Kevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02593005679430527458noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-78621369980478520542017-07-02T01:14:03.206-07:002017-07-02T01:14:03.206-07:00And that's just Islam. To say that the only fa...And that's just Islam. To say that the only faithful version of Islam is the terrorist version strikes me as just silly. <br /><br />And then you have to show that somehow religion is the causal factor that produces the violence. So, how do you explain violence in the interests of secular ideologies, which have a far higher death toll than the religious ones. Atheism was not incidental to Soviet and Maoist communism, it was pretty critical to it. Victor Repperthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10962948073162156902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-50399833904355005342017-07-02T01:09:59.943-07:002017-07-02T01:09:59.943-07:00Look, it is as easy as pie to find religious peopl...Look, it is as easy as pie to find religious people doing bad things in the name of religion. Sadly, ISIS and those like ISIS provide headline examples. But then you have to make the argument that the likes of Khizr Khan and Hakeem Olajuwon, two Muslims who don't practice violence and oppose violence, are somehow bad Muslims who don't know how to read. Good luck with that. Do you know that there are four schools of Sunni interpretation and two of Shiite interpretation? These concern how you go from the Qur'an to actual practice. But then, maybe the travel ban is OK after all. <br /><br />Victor Repperthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10962948073162156902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-86043783217221209002017-07-01T21:38:58.916-07:002017-07-01T21:38:58.916-07:00Typical New Atheist depending on fallacies to make...Typical New Atheist depending on fallacies to make his point.<br /><br />"Islamic fundamentalist, therefore Christian in Bible study dangerous."<br /><br />Sad.Kevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02593005679430527458noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-8290799167907478152017-07-01T14:36:16.298-07:002017-07-01T14:36:16.298-07:00grodrigues said...
@Joe Hinman:
"&q...grodrigues said...<br /><br /> @Joe Hinman:<br /><br /> "" The atheist-marxist regime under Staline killed 20 million,"<br /> --False dichotomy.<br /><br /> >>>bull shit it;s the very same logic you are using"<br /><br />" The biggest bs is that there is no dichotomy in what I said,"<br />--The dichotomy is this<br />Atheist therefore millions killed<br />Not atheist therefore not millions killed<br /><br />" false or otherwise."<br />--Your reasoning is false because it neglects a third choice<br />Lust for power therefore millions killed<br /><br />Religion isn't like atheism. Religion itself provides incentive. Islamic fundamentalists kill people because they think god wants those people killed and because they think god will reward them in paradise.<br /><br /><br /> July 01, 2017 12:35 PMStardustyPsychehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12493629973262220492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-40520227263173409162017-07-01T14:17:08.661-07:002017-07-01T14:17:08.661-07:00Joe Hinman said...
Blowing people up and stab...Joe Hinman said...<br /><br /> Blowing people up and stabbing people and burning people alive and raping people in the name of god is not "mundane", it is what religious people do because they think it is godly.<br /><br />" It's also what communists do because they think it's atheistic, "<br />--Absurd, people don't scream "there is no god" before they kill.<br /><br />People don't kill because they think atheism calls for killing.<br />People do kill because they think god calls for killing.<br /><br />People wage war out of a lust for power, land, money.<br />They wage war to throw off the ruling government.<br />They wage war to get to paradise because they think god wants this war.<br />They do not wage war for not god.<br /><br />You don't have a clue what you are talking about.<br /><br /><br /> July 01, 2017 10:38 AMStardustyPsychehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12493629973262220492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-11077901318506621372017-07-01T12:35:10.284-07:002017-07-01T12:35:10.284-07:00@Joe Hinman:
"" The atheist-marxist reg...@Joe Hinman:<br /><br />"" The atheist-marxist regime under Staline killed 20 million,"<br />--False dichotomy.<br /><br />>>>bull shit it;s the very same logic you are using"<br /><br />The biggest bs is that there is no dichotomy in what I said, false or otherwise. It is yet another laughably idiotic misreading.<br /><br />Stardusty simply picks the name of a fallacy at random from the list of the eight or nine he knows. And this is about the best thing that can be said about his comments.grodrigueshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12366931909873380710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-69810331270271312722017-07-01T10:39:17.031-07:002017-07-01T10:39:17.031-07:00" The atheist-marxist regime under Staline ki...<br />" The atheist-marxist regime under Staline killed 20 million,"<br />--False dichotomy.<br /><br />>>>bull shit it;s the very same logic you are usingJoseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-66338557069342042032017-07-01T10:38:07.265-07:002017-07-01T10:38:07.265-07:00Blowing people up and stabbing people and burning ...Blowing people up and stabbing people and burning people alive and raping people in the name of god is not "mundane", it is what religious people do because they think it is godly.<br /><br /><b>It's also what communists do because they think it's atheistic, they killed 1 million people in 20th century</b>Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-7755302211449332522017-07-01T10:36:10.087-07:002017-07-01T10:36:10.087-07:00we don't have to back religion plus we just su...we don't have to back religion plus we just support straight on religion,Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-79984388847728624552017-06-30T11:36:16.312-07:002017-06-30T11:36:16.312-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.grodrigueshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12366931909873380710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-35340694891422187342017-06-30T01:27:32.111-07:002017-06-30T01:27:32.111-07:00My point is that even if the violent Muslims are t...My point is that even if the violent Muslims are the pure ones, it has zero bearing on what it means to be a Jew or Christian or Hindu or Wiccan or anything else except a Muslim. "Religion" is too broad a term to be useful when used as a description of a class of people. Even pointing to the darker moments within Christianity has zero bearing on the members of my Bible study - what they believed and did does not conform to what I believe and do, and I take my beliefs just as seriously as they.<br /><br />I could just as easily point to communism to tarnish all left wing political ideologies, or all ideologies period.Kevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02593005679430527458noreply@blogger.com