tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post2773248084302242827..comments2024-03-28T12:34:14.649-07:00Comments on dangerous idea: Craig responds to BoghossianVictor Repperthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10962948073162156902noreply@blogger.comBlogger38125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-58905883381823108742015-03-10T19:20:48.606-07:002015-03-10T19:20:48.606-07:00"The concept of fallen man assumes some kind ..."The concept of fallen man assumes some kind of perfect state that never existed."<br /><br />It also describes a world that should have been.David Duffyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01222419875209542723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-117158622648734372015-03-09T22:15:09.017-07:002015-03-09T22:15:09.017-07:00The concept of fallen man assumes some kind of per...The concept of fallen man assumes some kind of perfect state that never existed. It ignores the reality that we are imperfect and but as a species we can strive to lift ourselves out of the barbarity of our past. If your love for others depends on this image of perfection, it's bound to result in disappointment as that image is shattered when they inevitably fail to live up to it.im-skepticalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08267710618719895303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-85869065329632852002015-03-09T20:50:42.950-07:002015-03-09T20:50:42.950-07:00I thought “we live in a fallen world” would be one...I thought “we live in a fallen world” would be one of the least controversial things I could say. I have an agnostic friend who uses the phrase all the time. He uses it as shorthand for what you and Mr. Skeptical might understand as human nature being formed by the Darwinian world that allowed for some to procreate and others to leave their genes in the grave.<br /> <br />When I try to point him away from his cynicism about human nature—our love of beauty, our poetry, music, art (and for me the beauty of an Anglican service on Sunday morning), and so forth, he tells me this all can be explained through evolutionary psychology. The love beauty evolved because this love enabled us to create the most offspring. Perhaps you and Mr. Skeptical have a better explanation for our love of beauty.<br /><br />The concept of being made in the image of God and yet fallen, seems to me to be the most sensible. At least, it helps me to love others as I see the image of God in them while not trying to whitewash serious flaws in their choices and character.David Duffyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01222419875209542723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-59272251900501772552015-03-09T20:42:49.398-07:002015-03-09T20:42:49.398-07:00There are people who strive for a more peaceful ex...There are people who strive for a more peaceful existence. Unfortunately, there are not enough of them. im-skepticalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08267710618719895303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-43887960779025317802015-03-09T19:00:46.032-07:002015-03-09T19:00:46.032-07:00So we act according to our warlike nature but then...So we act according to our warlike nature but then reach beyond our tribal interests due to enlightenment? Sounds like an unlikely plot line.oozzielionelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00326968846352428451noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-83694005273942531612015-03-09T16:29:00.876-07:002015-03-09T16:29:00.876-07:00"IM seems to be agreeing a bit that we have a..."IM seems to be agreeing a bit that we have a nature that acts contrary to our destiny? But there is nothing in the evolutionary meta-narrative that we can hang any hope on, is there?"<br /><br />No. I explicitly said that we act in accordance with our nature. It is a religious myth that we are "fallen". As for "meta-narratives", that's something you insist on. Evolution is what it is, regardless of any narrative, purpose, or destiny you may wish to attach to it.im-skepticalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08267710618719895303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-41815576025295102022015-03-09T16:11:43.382-07:002015-03-09T16:11:43.382-07:00B: "Only Man, in all of creation, acts contra...B: "Only Man, in all of creation, acts contrary to his nature"<br /><br />IM: If we are successful in this endeavor, it will be the ascent of mankind, not the fall. But our warlike nature is still very deeply ingrained.<br /><br />IM seems to be agreeing a bit that we have a nature that acts contrary to our destiny? But there is nothing in the evolutionary meta-narrative that we can hang any hope on, is there?oozzielionelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00326968846352428451noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-26463425537984762782015-03-09T08:07:14.430-07:002015-03-09T08:07:14.430-07:00Dr. Weston speaks through the mouth of Skep. (See ...Dr. Weston speaks through the mouth of Skep. (See C.S. Lewis's <i>Out of the Silent Planet</i>, Chapter 20.)B. Prokophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10548980245078214688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-37715153090854694782015-03-09T07:48:08.944-07:002015-03-09T07:48:08.944-07:00"Only Man, in all of creation, acts contrary ..."Only Man, in all of creation, acts contrary to his nature"<br /><br />What a load of crap. Man, like everything else acts according to his nature. What makes you think otherwise? We evolved from animals that struggled to survive. We depend on our own tribe, and we fight our rivals. That's the nature of mankind. As we become more mobile, we divide ourselves into tribes with artificial social institutions like Christianity and other religions, that serve to distinguish tribal groups from one another. Only in more enlightened times have we been able to begin to reach beyond our tribal interests to work for a more peaceful existence. If we are successful in this endeavor, it will be the ascent of mankind, not the fall. But our warlike nature is still very deeply ingrained. im-skepticalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08267710618719895303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-62993037143703338672015-03-08T19:12:02.545-07:002015-03-08T19:12:02.545-07:00"Why do you persist with this unfounded notio..."<i>Why do you persist with this unfounded notion?</i>"<br /><br />The Fall of Man is the one tenet of Christian dogma that is most easily provable by empirical evidence alone. No need for philosophy, revelation, scripture... nothing other than observation required.<br /><br />Drop a rock, and it falls. It has no choice to do otherwise. Same thing with every other non-human entity in the observable universe. Everything behaves <i>exactly</i> as it is supposed to do. Only Man, in all of creation, acts contrary to his nature, in ways opposed to his own good, and to the observable and verifiable harm of himself and those around him. To deny the Fall of Man is to shut one's eyes, jam one's fists into one's ears, and consciously and deliberately ignore all evidence. In fact, to deny the Fall of Man is <b>all by itself</b> proof of Man's fallen nature.B. Prokophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10548980245078214688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-39294724698295153972015-03-08T19:02:03.835-07:002015-03-08T19:02:03.835-07:00Dave: 'We live in a fallen world."
Why ...Dave: <i>'We live in a fallen world."</i><br /><br />Why do you persist with this unfounded notion?Papalintonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03818630173726146048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-26818022010768719522015-03-08T17:36:05.637-07:002015-03-08T17:36:05.637-07:00I'm not a fan of the format, but I enjoyed lis...I'm not a fan of the format, but I enjoyed listening to Craig respond to the soundbites of an atheist pretending to be a street evangelist. Let the atheists become street evangelist, it's damn hard mixing it up with actual, and not theoretical, people. I think his 10,000 minions on the street will find "faith" the least of their worries. We live in a fallen world.David Duffyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01222419875209542723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-76375198275776501692015-03-07T13:42:41.406-07:002015-03-07T13:42:41.406-07:00" ... then I might feel some sympathy."
...<i>" ... then I might feel some sympathy."</i><br /><br />Lying hound.Papalintonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03818630173726146048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-55530396235107733482015-03-07T13:38:13.443-07:002015-03-07T13:38:13.443-07:00Faith is not a "way of knowing" or "...Faith is not a "way of knowing" or "pretending to know something you don't know". Boghossian is an idiot when it comes to religious matters, and can be completely dismissed as someone with no actual arguments beyond propaganda.<br /><br />Regarding Communism and atheism...the Soviet Union and other communist regimes were explicitly atheistic. Thus, we can blame "atheism" on communist atrocities equally as much as you can blame 9/11 and ISIS on "religion". <br /><br />If atheists had the intellectual honesty to differentiate between Islam and Christianity - which did not fly planes into buildings - rather than say "religion", then I might feel some sympathy. Until you guys stop blaming "religion" - which is usually synonymous with "theists" - then we are going to blame atheists and all of the sub-categories thereof - including oppressive Communist regimes. What's good for the goose...Kevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02593005679430527458noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-2270784059375008462015-03-06T20:55:15.933-07:002015-03-06T20:55:15.933-07:00"I understand him. You don't"
Whate..."I understand him. You don't"<br /><br />Whatever, dude.im-skepticalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08267710618719895303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-47052036318428001112015-03-06T18:55:13.622-07:002015-03-06T18:55:13.622-07:00"Sorry you are unable to understand what Crai...<b>"Sorry you are unable to understand what Craig says."</b><br /><br />I understand him. You don't, and that's evident from the way you make his second quote say something it does not.<br /><br />You could prove you did understand him by actually putting forth an argument or something to make your point, instead of another naked assertion followed by gnu atheist insult.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-89323397514684901372015-03-06T17:29:24.442-07:002015-03-06T17:29:24.442-07:00cl,
Sorry you are unable to understand what Craig...cl,<br /><br />Sorry you are unable to understand what Craig says. Maybe after you get out of high school - but I doubt it. By the way, that article is titled "<a href="http://www.bethinking.org/truth/religious-epistemology" rel="nofollow">Religious Epistemology</a>".im-skepticalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08267710618719895303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-4381053178940427512015-03-06T17:15:18.330-07:002015-03-06T17:15:18.330-07:00"I provide two quotes from Craig. One says th...<b>"I provide two quotes from Craig. One says that faith is not epistemology, and the other one says faith is epistemology.</b>"<br /><br />Bullshit. Yeah, you provided 2 quotes from Craig. Yeah, one says faith is not an epistemology. No, the other DOES NOT say "faith is an epistemology."<br /><br />Try again.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-23973983703936399242015-03-06T17:09:18.478-07:002015-03-06T17:09:18.478-07:00"And I pray to God that I never will."
...<i>"And I pray to God that I never will."</i><br /><br />Yep. Profound ignorance can be perpetuated in many forms.Papalintonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03818630173726146048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-29131348897392971462015-03-06T10:09:45.527-07:002015-03-06T10:09:45.527-07:00"you still have no idea what atheism is about..."<i>you still have no idea what atheism is about</i>"<br /><br />And I pray to God that I never will.B. Prokophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10548980245078214688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-10453692391962876652015-03-06T09:31:42.121-07:002015-03-06T09:31:42.121-07:00Bob,
Regardless of what you say, you still have n...Bob,<br /><br />Regardless of what you say, you still have no idea what atheism is about.<br /><br />Sheesh!im-skepticalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08267710618719895303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-55272100802599542362015-03-06T08:54:30.658-07:002015-03-06T08:54:30.658-07:00Skep,
Are you illiterate, or do you just never pa...Skep,<br /><br />Are you illiterate, or do you just never pay any attention to what you read? That is not a definition of <i>atheism</i>, it is a characterization (not a definition) of <i>Communism</i>.<br /><br />Sheesh!B. Prokophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10548980245078214688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-74899991004409774932015-03-06T08:45:19.047-07:002015-03-06T08:45:19.047-07:00"What was my definition of atheism?"
&q..."What was my definition of atheism?"<br /><br />"Communism simply happens to be atheism's most spectacular end product"<br /><br />"atheism can be fairly credited with the slaughter in the Vendee (160,000 corpses), the Stalinist reign of terror in the Soviet Union (60-70 million corpses), the Maoist regime in China (100 million plus corpses), and the empty, sterile, dead-end consumerist society in today's "developed" world (billions of spiritual corpses and uncountable millions of aborted babies)..."<br /><br />"Communism is a logical extension of atheism's penchant for claiming that Mankind is perfectible by his own efforts"<br /><br />"Communism is predicated upon a belief that Humanity can achieve perfection under its own steam, a belief that can make sense only to an atheist."<br /><br /><br /><br />Every one of these statements shows that you have no idea what it means to be an atheist, according to any dictionary definition of the word, or according to how atheists would define it themselves.im-skepticalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08267710618719895303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-33271436802787214152015-03-06T08:21:27.319-07:002015-03-06T08:21:27.319-07:00I forget. What was my definition of atheism?I forget. What was my definition of atheism?B. Prokophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10548980245078214688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-4349363089911527442015-03-06T08:06:58.082-07:002015-03-06T08:06:58.082-07:00"Anyway, it strikes me that, if atheists stop..."Anyway, it strikes me that, if atheists stopped desperately trying to pretend that they somehow know what we mean by a term better than we ourselves know, they could use the time they'd save actually coming up with arguments that don't tile at straw men, and obviate the need for this discussion in the first place."<br /><br />Hmmm...<br /><br />Isn't it Bob who insists he knows what it means to be an atheist despite the fact that he doesn't? Despite the fact that he could look it up in the dictionary? As it happens, the word 'faith' is also in the dictionary, and it is part of the English language, available for everyone to use. We have discussed this before. Bob insists that it has a different meaning for believers than for anyone else who speaks the language.<br /><br />The funny thing about these two situations is that in both cases, Bob's definition is different from the dictionary definition that we all understand. And in both cases, Bob insists that he's right and the rest of the world is wrong.<br /><br /><br />im-skepticalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08267710618719895303noreply@blogger.com