tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post2646042937822303578..comments2024-03-28T12:34:14.649-07:00Comments on dangerous idea: Loftus misrepresents me again (surprise surprise)Victor Repperthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10962948073162156902noreply@blogger.comBlogger70125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-49093929611394132282011-06-23T01:49:54.442-07:002011-06-23T01:49:54.442-07:00Graham
Thanks, 'a likable rogue'.
And yes...Graham<br />Thanks, 'a likable rogue'.<br />And yes my modus is to stir a little. And should one read a little carefully, as you seem to have done, there is game in my commentary. Sometimes a little droll, sometimes a little black. <br />I'm at an age where I so enjoy life and I prefer to take things not too seriously.<br /><br />So you can appreciate why it is that responding to Anonymous, or Ben Yachov, or Karl Grant, is quite a nice dig, only by virtue that they seem they somewhat shy of levity when it comes to their contributions. <br />I am not trying to put them down. I take a positive approach. I try and send them up.<br />And of course, Ilion and Morrison are just wonderful, unilaterally declaring great victories over atheists. Reminds me of 'Chemical Ali' [as he was dubbed by the Americans] a member of Saddam Hussein's cabinet, who, with the international media all round him, declared 'the Americans are being met and pushed back', even when indeed they were already mopping up around the outskirts of Baghdad. <br />It was a very comedic moment.<br /><br />I might add Graham, i do recall you have not been spared a few barbs.<br /><br />CheersPapalintonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03818630173726146048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-3102461222483656612011-06-22T17:27:17.262-07:002011-06-22T17:27:17.262-07:00Which makes you more Gizmo than Gremlin, btw...
I ...Which makes you more Gizmo than Gremlin, btw...<br />I meant what I said. Once a person 'gets' your he realise that you're really quite likeable chap. I have you filed under "loveable rogue".Mr Vealehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12931446615905211560noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-31301248955644768402011-06-22T17:23:49.882-07:002011-06-22T17:23:49.882-07:00Oh, I didn't say I didn't like having you ...Oh, I didn't say I didn't like having you around! To my mind, you're great fun! <br />There's no point in debating with you. You want to infuriate, and you're engagingly outrageous in your quest to irriate Christians without actually saying anything. <br />Quite clever, really.<br />But it's after midnight this side of Atlantic, so I won't be feeding you this evening.(-;<br /> <br /><br />Have a good one<br /><br />GrahamMr Vealehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12931446615905211560noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-64388133187909767982011-06-22T16:44:35.574-07:002011-06-22T16:44:35.574-07:00Mr Veale
"There's no point in engaging w...Mr Veale<br /><br />"There's no point in engaging with Papa L. He's just a mischief maker out to ruin the blog."<br /><br />You misrepresent me. I wish you to stop peddling your superstitious supernatural woo and keep it to yourself. Everyone has the right to freedom of religion and freedom from religion.<br />I want humans to be humans, not the plaything of the faery at the bottom of the garden of eden.Papalintonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03818630173726146048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-11718821328011811932011-06-22T09:50:58.747-07:002011-06-22T09:50:58.747-07:00Pop-culture references are a neglected art, Philos...Pop-culture references are a neglected art, Philosophy Knight! And there isn't anything else to discuss on this thread...<br /><br />There's no point in engaging with Papa L. He's just a mischief maker out to ruin the blog.Mr Vealehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12931446615905211560noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-67679437340804016872011-06-20T19:59:11.494-07:002011-06-20T19:59:11.494-07:00These comments are really far from what I normally...These comments are really far from what I normally see here, which is reasonable and somewhat polite debate. <br /><br />As for Loftus commenting that the blog posters here are unintelligent, just ignore him. That's just rich coming from someone who frequents this blog himself. If he really thinks that way, why would he ever post here? Just go away then.abcde234324https://www.blogger.com/profile/15499783278280196345noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-1764456598675108152011-06-20T16:16:08.488-07:002011-06-20T16:16:08.488-07:00(Someone round here has to get a pop-culture refer...(Someone round here has to get a pop-culture reference sooner of later...)Mr Vealehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12931446615905211560noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-55791870331306202202011-06-20T16:15:25.936-07:002011-06-20T16:15:25.936-07:00I warned you
I told you the rules
You didn'...I warned you<br /><br />I told you the rules <br /><br />You didn't listen <br /><br /><i>Here we grow again</i>Mr Vealehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12931446615905211560noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-24270212884591346222011-06-20T15:11:20.362-07:002011-06-20T15:11:20.362-07:00Papalinton...thank you for the admissions.
As you...Papalinton...thank you for the admissions.<br /><br />As you have surrendered the points regarding the Secular Wars of the 20th Century and the Officially Atheistic Basis of Communism in the form it took in the 20th Century, your additional link is irrelevant.<br /><br />As for atheism, the unfalsifible faith that it holds in the ability of mindless processes to account for existence, life, mind, and reason itself...an undemonstrable claim, even in principle...is not full of chinks, it is cracked right down the middle.Morrisonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06137890891223067672noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-62079545468954242522011-06-20T11:07:01.776-07:002011-06-20T11:07:01.776-07:00Guys, you're taking the Abrasive Aussie much t...Guys, you're taking the Abrasive Aussie much to seriously. <br /><br />Papa Linton, bless his Trollish locks, isn't interested in discussion, debate, or even proving Theists wrong. <br /><br />He just wants to make you angry. <br /><br />Trust me. There's some rules you need to follow. <br /><br />First of all, keep him out of the light, he hates bright light, especially sunlight, it'll kill him. <br /><br />Second, don't give him any water, not even to drink. <br /><br />But the most important rule,<br />the rule you can never forget,<br />no matter how much he cries,<br />no matter how much he begs<br /><br /><b><i> never ever feed the Troll</i></b><br /><br />GrahamMr Vealehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12931446615905211560noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-30728579414850306822011-06-20T09:57:06.898-07:002011-06-20T09:57:06.898-07:00@ Morrison
"I will say this, I know there ar...@ Morrison<br /><br />"I will say this, I know there are other preachers like that in the Church, maybe more than we suspect, and it is a Miracle that the Church has survived this long."<br /><br />I think you're right. There are vastly more atheists/agnostics in the pulpit than we imagine. Indeed Daniel Dennet's latest research and interviews into this matter will be an enlightening read.<br />As far as the miracle bit, not likely. More like favorable historical conditions.Papalintonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03818630173726146048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-68095210108044793022011-06-20T09:38:03.890-07:002011-06-20T09:38:03.890-07:00@ Morrison
This is the latest little chink in the...@ Morrison<br /><br />This is the latest little chink in the armor of christian theism. Bit by bit, brick by brick, the christian edifice is being dismantled.<br /><br />Have fun:<br /><br />http://www.statesman.com/life/faith/author-offers-evolutionary-explanation-for-religion-1546961.html#.Tfzilu6ZtbM;emailPapalintonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03818630173726146048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-25110506531956715732011-06-20T09:27:45.595-07:002011-06-20T09:27:45.595-07:00Hey Papalinton...I like that picture of you with D...Hey Papalinton...I like that picture of you with Dan Barker. Barker was here at KU in Lawrence about a month ago for an atheist rally, so I picked up his books.<br /><br />Get this, just like Loftus he continued to preach after he no longer believed.<br /><br />An admitted liar! To the people who were supposed to be closest to him, no less!<br /><br />And now we are supposed to believe him about his other experiences?<br /><br />I will say this, I know there are other preachers like that in the Church, maybe more than we suspect, and it is a Miracle that the Church has survived this long.<br /><br />But can you imagine the damage guys like Loftus and Barker could have done if they had STAYED in the Church? LOL!<br /><br />And Barker even writes intros to the Loftus books. <br /><br />Isn't that cute?Morrisonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06137890891223067672noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-81192063264554436592011-06-20T09:17:29.996-07:002011-06-20T09:17:29.996-07:00Papalinton, I exposed your lies about the nature o...Papalinton, I exposed your lies about the nature of the Secular Wars in the 20th century.<br /><br />I exposed your lies about the nature of Communism as it was expressed in the 20th century.<br /><br />And your only response consists of name calling and invective.<br /><br />Yep, you know you are wrong, and it make you Mad As Hell.<br /><br />There is a lot of anti religion hatred and bigorty expressed in your atheisitic ramblings, Papalinton.<br /><br />And subtle threats too...as when you say Christianity is a "clear and present danger".<br /><br />Like I said...thanks for the warnings.Morrisonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06137890891223067672noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-10115409960784466132011-06-20T08:50:38.908-07:002011-06-20T08:50:38.908-07:00Karl your pious rage and utter impotence to manage...<i>Karl your pious rage and utter impotence to manage a reasoned discourse is emblematic of the Apologist 'confirmation bias'. Nothing more, nothing less.</i><br /><br />You really like to toot your own horn, don't you?<br /><br /><i>The qualitative substance of not one of those references supports your claim. READ THEM CAREFULLY.</i><br /><br />I linked to them so it is safe to assume that I have read them and analyzed them long before you did. <br /><br /><i>favorable BEHAVIOURS not HEALTH OUTCOMES.<br />It is just as I say, 'touchy-feely' stuff, and nothing about improved medical outcomes resulting from prayer.</i><br /><br />The study points out that the reason they have those more favorable behaviors tends to be because they are religious. <br /><br /><i>Karl you have been slapped.</i><br /><br />Yes, I believed it was possible to have intelligent discourse with you and that you might have a working brain. You have proven me wrong. Three cheers for Pap!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-61011292552562418042011-06-20T08:42:00.576-07:002011-06-20T08:42:00.576-07:00@ Karl grant
I noted, "The record stands on...@ Karl grant<br /><br />I noted, "The record stands on its merits. Prayer and religion have no direct causal relationships for improved clinical outcomes."<br /><br />If they did, it would be a bloody miracle.Papalintonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03818630173726146048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-8389056396671249902011-06-20T08:39:43.060-07:002011-06-20T08:39:43.060-07:00Papalinton,
But only if christians or muslims get...Papalinton,<br /><br /><i>But only if christians or muslims get their hands on it. You see, Karl, if one lives by an irrational superstitious supernatural mythos, who can say with any certainty what in their mind constitutes an ethical or moral decision. Is it the god of the OT or the god of the NT which speaks? Is it going to be the Amalekite solution? Who knows. Only christians have dropped a nuclear bomb on another peoples.</i><br /><br />You contradict yourself in the same paragraph. <i><b>only if christians or muslims get their hands on it....Only christians have dropped a nuclear bomb on another peoples.</b></i> Christians and Muslims (The Islamic Republic of Pakistan is a nuclear power, Iran probably already has a warhead or two) already have nuclear weapons. We're still breathing. And none of this changes the fact that science gave Muslims and Christians those weapons to begin with. <br /><br />And the decision to bomb Japan was based on purely strategic reasons, namely as hope to avoid a full scale invasion of the Japanese islands. It was not to destroy the Japanese religions; Japan was predominately Shinto and Buddhist back in the 1940s and it is predominately Shinto and Buddhist now.<br /><br />I'll ask again, what fantasy world do you live in?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-49442340291614304592011-06-20T08:39:21.430-07:002011-06-20T08:39:21.430-07:00@ Karl grant
Every quote you quoted from the stud...@ Karl grant<br /><br />Every quote you quoted from the studies I quoted verbatim. Not a word left out. No speed reading, no cherry-picking. <br /><br />Karl your pious rage and utter impotence to manage a reasoned discourse is emblematic of the Apologist 'confirmation bias'. Nothing more, nothing less.<br /><br />The qualitative substance of not one of those references supports your claim. READ THEM CAREFULLY. <br /><br />The comment taken from the findings you quote, "The study concluded that those who pray had more favorable health-related behaviors, ..." <br />favorable BEHAVIOURS not HEALTH OUTCOMES.<br />It is just as I say, 'touchy-feely' stuff, and nothing about improved medical outcomes resulting from prayer.<br /><br />The record stands on its merits. Prayer and religion have no direct causal relationships for improved clinical outcomes.<br /><br />Karl you have been slapped.<br />Incidentally, I don't call people 'sheep'.Papalintonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03818630173726146048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-9874207003709666482011-06-20T08:26:41.739-07:002011-06-20T08:26:41.739-07:00Furthermore, from the Lancet:
Overall, the study ...Furthermore, from the Lancet:<br /><br /><i>Overall, the study found no significant effect of prayer. <b>However, major adverse cardiac events were reduced in the prayer group (23% to 27%), as were death and readmission rates (33% to 35%).</b></i><br /><br /><i>Sciences gives people quantifiable and qualitatively improved health outcomes.</i><br /><br />Only if you ignore the negatives. The mainstream medical community once destroyed <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignaz_Semmelweis" rel="nofollow"> Ignaz Semmelweis's</a> career for suggesting that doctors need to wash their hands between surgeries. How many tens of thousands of people died needlessly because of that? It was modern medicine that gave us thalidomide and still continues to manufacture faulty drugs. Hardly a month goes by were you don't hear about some class-action suite against a drug company for manufacturing faulty products. Somehow, I doubt <a href="http://www.prijatelji-zivotinja.hr/data/image_1_2120.jpg" rel="nofollow">the family of this kid would agree that science improved his life.</a>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-36957588722527774592011-06-20T08:19:57.894-07:002011-06-20T08:19:57.894-07:00@ Karl Grant
"It [science] gave us nuclear e...@ Karl Grant<br /><br />"It [science] gave us nuclear energy but has forced us to live with the threat of nuclear annilation for over the last sixty years."<br /><br />But only if christians or muslims get their hands on it. You see, Karl, if one lives by an irrational superstitious supernatural mythos, who can say with any certainty what in their mind constitutes an ethical or moral decision. Is it the god of the OT or the god of the NT which speaks? Is it going to be the Amalekite solution? Who knows. Only christians have dropped a nuclear bomb on another peoples.Papalintonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03818630173726146048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-8719997697166986662011-06-20T08:13:34.917-07:002011-06-20T08:13:34.917-07:00Papalintion,
I can see you like to use selective...Papalintion, <br /><br />I can see you like to use selective quotes. <br /><br />Let's take a look at 15895540:<br /><br /><i>A study of prayer use by patients showed that 47% of study subjects prayed for their health, and 90% of these believed prayer improved their health. Those who prayed had significantly less smoking and alcohol use and more preventive care visits, influenza immunizations, vegetable intake, satisfaction with care, and social support, and were more likely to have a regular primary care provider. The study concluded that those who pray had more favorable health-related behaviors, preventive service use, and satisfaction with care.</i><br /><br />And from 11493130:<br /><br /><i>Our findings suggest that patients who indicate religious struggle during a spiritual history may be at particularly high risk for poor medical outcomes. Referral of these patients to clergy to help them work through these issues may ultimately improve clinical outcomes; further research is needed to determine whether interventions that reduce religious struggles might also improve medical prognosis.</i><br /><br />Here is what I think you did, you sped read through those studies cherry picking quotes instead of reading and comprehending what they were saying (This seems likely since less than an hour has past between my original post and your replies). Otherwise, you would realize that 11493130 is saying that people who are struggling with their religion are more likely to have health problems as opposed to people who have no problems with their religion, people who I think you referred to as 'sheep.'Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-74531071335683593902011-06-20T08:07:36.850-07:002011-06-20T08:07:36.850-07:00@ Karl Grant
your final referral: http://www.the...@ Karl Grant<br /><br />your final referral: http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140673605669103 <br /><br />Background: [abridged by me]<br />We undertook a multicentre, prospective trial of two such practices: intercessory prayer and music, imagery, and touch (MIT) therapy.<br /><br />Findings<br />371 patients were assigned prayer and 377 no prayer; 374 were assigned MIT therapy and 374 no MIT therapy. The factorial distribution was: standard care only, 192; prayer only, 182; MIT therapy only, 185; and both prayer and MIT therapy, 189. No significant difference was found for the primary composite endpoint in any treatment comparison. Mortality at 6 months was lower with MIT therapy than with no MIT therapy.<br /><br />Interpretation<br />Neither masked prayer nor MIT therapy significantly improved clinical outcome after elective catheterisation or percutaneous coronary intervention<br /><br /><br />Karl, further confirmation of the power[?] of prayer.<br />Sciences gives people quantifiable and qualitatively improved health outcomes. Prayer and religion do not.Papalintonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03818630173726146048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-46596275077590218602011-06-20T07:55:45.413-07:002011-06-20T07:55:45.413-07:00@ Karl Grant
Re your 4th referral on a trial on T...@ Karl Grant<br /><br />Re your 4th referral on a trial on The Effect of Remote Intercessory Prayer at the U. Texas: http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/abs/10.1089/1075553041323803<br /><br />Results: No direct intervention effect on the primary outcomes was found. A marginally significant reduction in the amount of pain was observed in the intervention group compared to controls. The amount of concern for baseline problems at follow-up was significantly lower in the intervention group when stratified by subject's baseline degree of belief that their problem could be resolved. Prayer intervention appeared to effectively reduce the subject's level of concern only if the subject initially believed that the problem could be resolved. Those in the intervention group who did not believe in a possible resolution to their problem did not differ from controls. Better physical functioning was observed in the intervention group among those with a higher belief in prayer and surprisingly, better mental health scores were observed in the control group with lower belief in prayer scores.<br /><br /><br />Three points I would make:<br /><br />1. "No direct intervention effect on the primary outcomes was found."<br />2. "Prayer intervention appeared to effectively reduce the subject's level of concern only if the subject initially believed that the problem could be resolved."<br />3. "... and surprisingly, better mental health scores were observed in the control group with lower belief in prayer scores."Papalintonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03818630173726146048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-33551881047241046232011-06-20T07:51:23.456-07:002011-06-20T07:51:23.456-07:00Papalinton,
No. How can this be when you contradi...Papalinton,<br /><br /><i>No. How can this be when you contradictorily posit that, " .. scientific progress within a country is depended upon the support of the country at large."?</i><br /><br />Keywords: <b>within a country</b>. Are you so dumb that you confuse local and global? Australia can go entirely green and it still wouldn't affect global warming if China <a href="http://www.paulchefurka.ca/WEAP2/Energy_Intensity_GDP_2050.html" rel="nofollow">keeps building two or three coal plants per week?</a><br /><br /><i>Or as Sarah Palin [a devout christian] would say, "Drill baby, drill".</i><br /><br />Sarah Palin gets money from the oil companies in the form of campaign contributions. Also, Barack Obama is a devout Christian and he keeps pushing green energy. <br /><br /><i>Christian eschatology is the basis for wanton and rampant use of finite resources and abusing the earth...</i><br /><br />I saw the word dominion (area of control) above, not rape and pillage. And I suppose that you are saying that atheists are unmotivated greed? That if the world switches to atheism we will no longer see greedy, ruthless corporations? That the people of the world were no longer consume natural resources to sustain themselves? What fantasy world do you live in? <br /><br /><i>unbridled science as the cause of all our woes...</i><br /><br />I never said science was the cause of all our woes, I merely pointed out that science has its downsides. Yeah, medicine may have given us heart-bypass surgery but it also gave us the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children_of_thalidomide#Birth_defects" rel="nofollow">Children of Thalidomide</a>. It gave us nuclear energy but has forced us to live with the threat of nuclear annilation for over the last sixty years. Science is a tool and like any tool it can be misused. And unlike you, I am not going to prostrate myself before a tool or remain blind to its defects.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-6639565990386354122011-06-20T07:45:32.183-07:002011-06-20T07:45:32.183-07:00@ Karl Grant
You referred this site twice in your ...@ Karl Grant<br />You referred this site twice in your list: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11493130Papalintonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03818630173726146048noreply@blogger.com