tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post1748602569166321375..comments2024-03-28T12:34:14.649-07:00Comments on dangerous idea: The faith of President-elect Biden Victor Repperthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10962948073162156902noreply@blogger.comBlogger110125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-58345207209461013562020-12-19T18:12:45.831-07:002020-12-19T18:12:45.831-07:00How are abortions performed at different stages? &...How are abortions performed at different stages? <a href="https://www.webmd.com/women/abortion-procedures#1" rel="nofollow">"Vacuum Aspiration", "Dilation and Evacuation" and "Dilation and Extraction"</a><br /><br />Surprisingly, one can find all sorts of videos online of all types of surgery but hardly any of these common procedures.bmillerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05855545675821692382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-40009680349044668322020-12-19T10:16:16.552-07:002020-12-19T10:16:16.552-07:00@bmiller
Thanks for sharing that! Really well made...@bmiller<br />Thanks for sharing that! Really well made and interesting. I did not know the details about yawning and handedness for instance. I was also happily surprised to see that the organization behind it has a <a href="https://www.ehd.org/overview_neutrality.php" rel="nofollow">Policy of Bioethical Neutrality</a> and is thus not showing this to shame/guilt-trip people via emotional arguments. ( Unlike you? :p )World of Factshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11066732051794158264noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-46254238765867157202020-12-19T09:45:54.401-07:002020-12-19T09:45:54.401-07:00The Endowment for Human Development has a free edu...The Endowment for Human Development has a free educational video <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8k6DjfOpew&feature=youtu.be" rel="nofollow">HERE.</a><br />Pretty remarkable intra-uterine footage and 4D ultrasound of what is really happening.bmillerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05855545675821692382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-81542384788381519012020-12-18T14:46:26.769-07:002020-12-18T14:46:26.769-07:00@Kevin
By the way, not sure you saw my other comme...@Kevin<br />By the way, not sure you saw my other comment... I realized you are actually the same person who was going under Legion of Logic. Did I miss the explanation as to why you made that switch sometime over the last 1+ year?World of Factshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11066732051794158264noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-7034673570870675522020-12-18T14:45:27.622-07:002020-12-18T14:45:27.622-07:00One Brow,
"My legal line is at viability. Wh...One Brow,<br /><br /><i>"My legal line is at viability. When the fetus is old enough to survive and capable of flourishing without the womb, any removal should be of a live fetus."</i><br />Ya I also think that this makes a lot of sense and it's pretty much what we have already.<br /><br />As a side note, I am not sure what you see as different from right now, when you said a "remove alive" bill for viable fetuses, as this is what we already do, no? If a woman has to have an abortion passed the 30-week mark, say, because her life is in danger, they will try to save the baby. And nobody (happy to be proven wrong and disgusted) chooses to have an abortion that late. Something like 95% are before the 12 week mark anyway. And even later, when getting close to the 40th week, it's just a c-section like a normal delivery. We don't call it 'abortion' but that's what it is... it aborts the pregnancy.<br /><br /><i>"That's different from my moral position."</i><br />Ok, which is what I have been curious to know about, after you called it evil, but in the legal context I guess. So, I am not sure what your position here is then, except that you said something about being subjective and thus not justifiable? Looks like I asked a lot of wrong questions...<br /><br /><i>"I reject any position based on the notion that a human's rights are based on their current mental abilities."</i><br />Ya it was not about that at all either... again, the very-imperfect analogy was about how cells are so different from fully grown organisms. Looks like it just confuse you a lot so definitely a bad choice from my part.World of Factshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11066732051794158264noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-86461721207242470582020-12-16T07:49:01.872-07:002020-12-16T07:49:01.872-07:00Hugo,
Not really; lots of legal things don’t have...Hugo,<br /><br /><i>Not really; lots of legal things don’t have a specific ‘line’ and use language such as ‘reasonable’. So, again, why do you draw it at conception? Why not birth? Or even some less precise line like viability around 22 weeks? There are several options...</i><br /><br />My legal line is at viability. When the fetus is old enough to survive and capable of flourishing without the womb, any removal should be of a live fetus. That's different from my moral position.<br /><br /><i>The cow has some kind of minimal animal rights; not to be tortured say. However, once the piece of cooked and chewed steak is in the stomach, how can we even talk about that cow still having any kind of rights, or not? I see fertilized embryos the same way, but the other way around; it hasn’t been granted any rights yet. What does work well in this analogy though is that I honestly think that the steak having rights, or an embryo having rights, are just as absurd.</i><br /><br />Good for you. The idea of "not tortured" depends on the ability of the cow to feel pain. I reject any position based on the notion that a human's rights are based on their current mental abilities.One Browhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11938816242512563561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-29591739946990088072020-12-16T02:36:42.460-07:002020-12-16T02:36:42.460-07:00Kevin,
Biologically, the zygote is a new human li...Kevin,<br /><br /><i>Biologically, the zygote is a new human life. Does this single cell in fact have intrinsic value of the sort that makes me desire to protect it and wish for its continued well-being? Well, almost everyone agrees that a newborn has that worth. Most agree a third trimester fetus does. When is the point at which this organism acquires worth?</i><br /><br />I have answered that ya. It’s tough; it’s some gray area that I don’t want to decide for anybody else.<br /><br /><i>First is the uncertainty of when these milestones are reached</i><br /><br />Indeed, very uncertain but…<br /><br /><i>The only standard that protects every human life has to include human life at every stage. Otherwise that value is completely arbitrary.</i><br /><br />Now you go wayyy too far, because ‘every stage’ includes conception. And that’s what I am asking about.<br /><br />Basically, on the one hand you’re saying it’s hard to decide, and I agree, but then you seem to just throw up you hand in the air and conclude that since it’s hard let’s just go crazy and put every stage, every single stage, under the exact same ‘human life’ umbrella, thereby granting a single cell the same rights and (similar?) value as a newborn.<br />World of Factshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11066732051794158264noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-83305207378054063282020-12-16T02:29:41.887-07:002020-12-16T02:29:41.887-07:00One Brow,
Don't confuse philosophical and leg...One Brow,<br /><br /><i>Don't confuse philosophical and legal positions.</i><br />Well I don’t think either of use is confused on that front. What I am confused about is this:<br /><br /><i>Legally, the line must be drawn somewhere.</i><br />Not really; lots of legal things don’t have a specific ‘line’ and use language such as ‘reasonable’. So, again, why do you draw it at conception? Why not birth? Or even some less precise line like viability around 22 weeks? There are several options...<br /><br /><i>Unless you're bulimic, the purpose of eating the steak is to allow the decomposition. People regularly have sex without the intent of conception.</i><br /><br />The point of the analogy was not so much about that; the part about consent was secondary. Ironically, what you quoted was actually what was more relevant, but that you did not address: it was more about the fact that the pieces of steak in the stomach are nothing like the cow, and that it would be absurd to talk about their rights, or lack thereof. I.e. The cow has some kind of minimal animal rights; not to be tortured say. However, once the piece of cooked and chewed steak is in the stomach, how can we even talk about that cow still having any kind of rights, or not? I see fertilized embryos the same way, but the other way around; it hasn’t been granted any rights yet. What does work well in this analogy though is that I honestly think that the steak having rights, or an embryo having rights, are just as absurd.<br />World of Factshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11066732051794158264noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-11215628902428645822020-12-15T09:48:58.502-07:002020-12-15T09:48:58.502-07:00why does this thing have any value to you?
People...<i>why does this thing have any value to you?</i><br /><br />People get killed all over the world every day that do not cost me any sleep. We are all this way. If we literally cared about every single human life, even complete strangers, we would have long ago gone extinct as a species via suicidal depression.<br /><br />That said, we do care on a conceptual level (most of us). I don't break down emotionally when a tsunami wipes out thousands, but if you asked me my opinion on the deaths, the answer would range along the lines of how awful it is, would help out if I could, prayers for them, donations, etc. It's not that I'm personally vested in their lives, but rather a personal value of mine is that a human life has intrinsic worth, whether I know them or not. <br /><br />Biologically, the zygote is a new human life. Does this single cell in fact have intrinsic value of the sort that makes me desire to protect it and wish for its continued well-being? Well, almost everyone agrees that a newborn has that worth. Most agree a third trimester fetus does. When is the point at which this organism acquires worth? <br /><br />Some offer various developmental milestones as the criteria for value, such as brain activity. A couple problems with that. First is the uncertainty of when these milestones are reached. If you truly place value on the fetus so long as he or she has a particular feature, but that standard is not objectively quantifiable in all cases, then there are fetuses with those features who will get killed. So the obvious practical solution would be to set the bar at a place where it is impossible to kill a fetus with brain activity, for example. Yet many / most abortion proponents oppose bans on abortions after six weeks, which guarantees such protection. This means brain activity does not translate into value.<br /><br />The other problem is the inherent selfishness of placing value on something so long as it closely resembles us. All of us were zygote and all of us are here because our mother didn't abort us, yet we decide it's simply dandy for other existing lives to be ended before they get a chance to obtain legal protection. They will never see the world because of our moral failure. That is pretty sorry.<br /><br />The only standard that protects every human life has to include human life at every stage. Otherwise that value is completely arbitrary. Kevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02593005679430527458noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-67297780862158967532020-12-15T07:41:12.898-07:002020-12-15T07:41:12.898-07:00Hugo,
A very imperfect analogy would be this: I e...Hugo,<br /><br /><i>A very imperfect analogy would be this: I eat a steak, it's now being digested in my stomach, and I claim that the cow doesn't have the right to use my stomach to decompose itself...</i><br /><br />Unless you're bulimic, the purpose of eating the steak is to allow the decomposition. People regularly have sex without the intent of conception.One Browhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11938816242512563561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-7588594536412199732020-12-15T07:38:15.207-07:002020-12-15T07:38:15.207-07:00Hugo,
Why do you conclude that this is now someth...Hugo,<br /><br /><i>Why do you conclude that this is now something completely different? </i><br /><br />I don't. Don't confuse philosophical and legal positions. We are all part of the continuum of human life for millions of years, part of the continuation of fish for eons.<br /><br /><i>Why draw the line at conception for jumping from no-value-no-right to full-on-human-life-with-rights?</i><br /><br />Legally, the line must be drawn somewhere.One Browhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11938816242512563561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-81873296857292669252020-12-14T13:45:21.913-07:002020-12-14T13:45:21.913-07:00Oh also, can't help but comment on this:
For ...Oh also, can't help but comment on this:<br /><br /><i>For example, the zygote does not have the right to borrow into uterus of the woman against the woman's will.</i><br /><br />It's quite bizarre frankly to me to talk about a purely automatic chemical/biological reaction as not having the right to proceed against the woman's will... especially since she (except in cases of rape) initiated the process herself. <br /><br />A very imperfect analogy would be this: I eat a steak, it's now being digested in my stomach, and I claim that the cow doesn't have the right to use my stomach to decompose itself...World of Factshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11066732051794158264noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-39927993604811411832020-12-14T13:37:08.012-07:002020-12-14T13:37:08.012-07:00One Brow,
But then, we look at it a few seconds/m...One Brow,<br /><br /><i>But then, we look at it a few seconds/minutes later when a much much smaller spermatozoid added some bits of DNA to it, kickstarting an automatic chemical reactions, self-replication, and <b>now it's somehow completely different!</b> And because you have a personal belief in and commitment to the life and quality of life of every human, this now-fertilized human egg deserves human rights, like every other human, as if it were itself a human just like any other fully developed human...<br /><br />Is that really it?<br /><br /><b>As long as we mean the same rights, and not superior rights, yes. For example, the zygote does not have the right to borrow into uterus of the woman against the woman's will.</b></i><br /><br />I have to ask because I am curious to know whether the ‘yes’ here really meant ‘yes’ to the question I was asking. I honestly find it hard to believe that it does because you specified ‘as long as it’s the same rights’, which is irrelevant. The question here is: why do you draw the line there? That’s why I put that part of my paragraph above in bold. Why do you conclude that this is now something completely different? Why draw the line at conception for jumping from no-value-no-right to full-on-human-life-with-rights?<br /><br />And again, in case that’s helpful, I don’t personally think there is such a line. Just like there is no such instantaneous moment when a child becomes an adult, even if we collectively place arbitrary numbers such as 18 years old for voting rights et al.<br />World of Factshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11066732051794158264noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-17221606328253693622020-12-14T07:04:16.098-07:002020-12-14T07:04:16.098-07:00Hugo,
On the one hand, sure, ascribing value to t...Hugo,<br /><br /><i>On the one hand, sure, ascribing value to things is purely subjective so we can't always justify the reasons. But it's not like we can never justify either.</i><br /><br />It's that the justifications, or their justifications, always turn out to be subjective.<br /><br /><i>But then, we look at it a few seconds/minutes later when a much much smaller spermatozoid added some bits of DNA to it, kickstarting an automatic chemical reactions, self-replication, and now it's somehow completely different! And because you have a personal belief in and commitment to the life and quality of life of every human, this now-fertilized human egg deserves human rights, like every other human, as if it were itself a human just like any other fully developed human...<br /><br />Is that really it?</i><br /><br />As long as we mean the same rights, and not superior rights, yes. For example, the zygote does not have the right to borrow into uterus of the woman against the woman's will.One Browhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11938816242512563561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-71074785255644979472020-12-13T11:01:23.604-07:002020-12-13T11:01:23.604-07:00One Brow,
On the one hand, sure, ascribing value ...One Brow,<br /><br />On the one hand, sure, ascribing value to things is purely subjective so we can't <i>always</i> justify the reasons. But it's not like we can <i>never</i> justify either.<br /><br />Therefore, OTOH, I find it intellectually lazy, for lack of better words, to just make that kind of blanket statement and apply it here in that <i>specific</i> case:<br /><br />We're looking at an ovum and everybody agrees that this thing has no special value; women are born with thousands of them and release/waste one every month for a big chunk of their lives.<br /><br />But then, we look at it a few seconds/minutes later when a much much smaller spermatozoid added some bits of DNA to it, kickstarting an automatic chemical reactions, self-replication, and now it's somehow completely different! And because you have a <i>personal belief in and commitment to the life and quality of life of every human</i>, this now-fertilized human egg deserves human rights, like every other human, as if it were itself a human just like any other fully developed human...<br /><br />Is that really it?World of Factshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11066732051794158264noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-11598904673763838742020-12-13T09:33:31.680-07:002020-12-13T09:33:31.680-07:00Hugo,
But here’s why I say it’s contentious thoug...Hugo,<br /><br /><i>But here’s why I say it’s contentious though, and what I think you have no rational answer for: why does this thing have any value to you? </i><br /><br />There are no rational values. Every time we try to create them, we found them on other preferences. It's turtles all the way down.<br /><br />I have a personal belief in and commitment to the life and quality of life of every human.One Browhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11938816242512563561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-29544679419655805592020-12-12T20:41:01.021-07:002020-12-12T20:41:01.021-07:00Kevin, One Brow,
The biology aspects are clear, s...Kevin, One Brow,<br /><br />The biology aspects are clear, sure; there is indeed no doubt that the second an ovum gets fertilized, we now have an independent living human organism, or even the more contentious term ‘new human life’.<br /><br />But here’s why I say it’s contentious though, and what I think you have no rational answer for: <b>why does this thing have any value to you?</b> The only people it could, perhaps, have value to is the father and especially the mother. And even then, I would disagree but, whatever, it’s in her body. But why does it have value to YOU, or anybody else?<br /><br />There are a few answers already up here of course, and I heard a few before:<br />- Continuation of our species<br />- Potential to be a full grown human<br />- It’s a human life<br />(Please add more as needed...)<br /><br />But I would just say… so what? Does this thing really have tremendous value just because it continues our species and/or has the potential to become a human? And calling it a ‘human life’ just to claim it has value is an argument by definition, a kind of false equivocation, where you just call the thing you consider has value the same name as something else we all agree as value just to make your point... So, what am I missing in your view?<br />World of Factshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11066732051794158264noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-38925900356991201092020-12-12T08:59:19.582-07:002020-12-12T08:59:19.582-07:00bmiller,
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply you we...bmiller,<br /><br /><i>Sorry, I didn't mean to imply you were. I just noticed that suddenly more people noticed how smart your arguments were once they perceived you weren't arguing for doing anything about it (apparently).</i><br /><br />You are confusing appreciation and agreement.One Browhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11938816242512563561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-53837882704333444212020-12-12T08:56:57.616-07:002020-12-12T08:56:57.616-07:00Hugo said...
I thought One Brow might but he menti...Hugo said...<br /><i>I thought One Brow might but he mentioned abortion is evil?</i><br /><br />Legally/politically, I see the issue as being one of competing evils. Embryos have the rights to grow and develop, women have the right to refuse to have their bodies used in this effort. I have mentioned before that I would support a "remove alive" bill for viable fetuses.<br /><br />However, as I have also pointed out, there is a lo of human life that we don't respect in this way (warts, cancer cells, etc.). It's not just that embryos are human life, it's that they also are a continuation of our species.One Browhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11938816242512563561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-33518345826137648292020-12-12T08:11:06.491-07:002020-12-12T08:11:06.491-07:00especially what you called the 'simple' sc...<i>especially what you called the 'simple' scientific part, which we interpret differently!</i><br /><br />Stripping away all the legal terminology stuff (person) and just looking at what is objectively true, a human is the exact same thing as a human organism. Scientifically and by logical definition, from the moment a human comes into being until the moment they die, they are the same organism throughout their existence, moving through various developmental stages of the human life cycle. <br /><br />Rewind the life cycle and observe a life in reverse. They become alive again and begin to de-age. Their hair goes from grey to brown. Their skin tightens up. Then they hit the teenage years and goes through reverse puberty, losing all the primary sexual markers of a mature adult. Still the same organism though!<br /><br />Then they begin losing coordination as they gets younger, along with their brain processes becoming much more self-centered. Then they lose the ability to walk and talk. Then they loses the ability to do much more than cry and wiggle and look around. Still the same organism! <br /><br />Then they plug in the umbilical cord and arrive in their mother's womb, continuing their reverse development. Organs become less specialized and simpler. The brain begins to simplify. Still the same organism though! <br /><br />Then these organs eventually vanish as the specialized cells continue to combine. Ultimately they wind up a zygote, the first cell of a new organism that is not a cell of either the mother or father. Still the same organism, but if you rewind any further then the zygote breaks up into a sperm and an egg, cells of the parents. The organism has ceased to exist at that point. <br /><br />That's why I say the science is straightforward. I'm not aware of any biology source that denies a zygote is the first stage of an organism's life. And it is the exact same organism as the adult it later develops into. It is literally a human life, distinct from the mother or father.Kevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02593005679430527458noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-22206911763538440932020-12-12T07:43:52.024-07:002020-12-12T07:43:52.024-07:00they perceived you weren't arguing for doing a...<i>they perceived you weren't arguing for doing anything about it (apparently)</i><br /><br />That wouldn't have been an accurate assessment of what I was saying, so their praise would have been misplaced regardless.Kevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02593005679430527458noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-23510517194786889612020-12-11T20:41:41.299-07:002020-12-11T20:41:41.299-07:00Right! But it's just that 1 thing... but again...Right! But it's just that 1 thing... but again, I think it's super important for you so perhaps it counts as a lot? I don't know...World of Factshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11066732051794158264noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-66614818830515012832020-12-11T20:24:01.088-07:002020-12-11T20:24:01.088-07:00" I just find it dishonest to claim it's ...<i>" I just find it dishonest to claim it's rational; it's not, and that's ok..."</i><br /><br />I knew it wouldn't take long until we disagreed! :)unkleEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12207729664951716799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-12667882141370238032020-12-11T20:08:27.143-07:002020-12-11T20:08:27.143-07:00unkleE said...
Hi Hugo, nice to hear from you agai...unkleE said...<br /><i>Hi Hugo, nice to hear from you again, long time as you say. Thanks for your kind comment about what I wrote. I don't think we end up agreeing on a lot, but let's celebrate when we do!!! :)</i><br /><br />Indeed, it's great to find people who we both disagree with and agree with; just agreeing is quite boring.<br /><br />Besides the god question though, I don't recall disagreeing with you on anything really so perhaps we're not that different. But it is a really big one for you so maybe it does make a big difference, I don't know... Frankly, I also do recall finding it extremely annoying to chat with you on your blog because of what I see as a contradiction: belief in god and claim it's rational. <br /><br />I.E. I personally find nothing wrong with the belief on its own, it's how it's applied that matters and, much less importantly, the reasons 'why' someone believe. I just find it dishonest to claim it's rational; it's not, and that's ok...World of Factshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11066732051794158264noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-34754002236825095802020-12-11T20:03:51.859-07:002020-12-11T20:03:51.859-07:00'Haha thanks, I did not realize this would sho...'Haha thanks, I did not realize this would show up here; it's my startup's logo!'<br /><br />Kevin said...<br /><i>I bought a brand new computer and brought it home, first time I turned it on it said "Hello Kevin". To this day I have no explanation for how it knew that. Wasn't hooked to internet, wasn’t set up by the store. Good stuff.</i><br /><br />Well, just to be clear, startup was referring to the company I started!<br /><br />Looking forward to your comments on the topic at hand if you're interested... especially what you called the 'simple' scientific part, which we interpret differently!<br /><br />CheersWorld of Factshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11066732051794158264noreply@blogger.com