tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post1416172791251855931..comments2024-03-28T12:34:14.649-07:00Comments on dangerous idea: Eternal accountability Victor Repperthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10962948073162156902noreply@blogger.comBlogger69125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-34273241179838772142015-05-03T15:42:41.279-07:002015-05-03T15:42:41.279-07:00DJC,
I still don't think you're getting w...DJC,<br /><br />I still don't think you're getting what I'm saying.<br /><br />The world happens to share lots of moral intuitions. I do not, and kill a man.<br /><br />I have done nothing wrong, according to this moral system, because it's not a moral system. That you think I did is your opinion, but it is also the opinion of many that parmesan cheese is better than provolone. It has no moral force, even if many people agree.<br /><br />"Lots of people agree with me" isn't even a starting point. It's a useless sentence.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-30448989772424338942015-05-01T17:20:29.723-07:002015-05-01T17:20:29.723-07:00malcolmthecynic,
"Who care if most people sh...malcolmthecynic,<br /><br /><i>"Who care if most people share these values? It has no moral force."</i><br /><br />I'm not sure how to interpret your sentence. I'll try it two ways.<br /><br />Guess 1<br /><i>"Who cares if most people share these values? Those values have no moral force to most people.</i><br /><br />On the contrary, values have the moral force that matters most because it is the raw motivational experience, like pain or pleasure, that fundamentally moves a person. Think about the moral emotions: contempt, anger, disgust, shame, embarrassment, guilt, compassion, gratitude, praise, etc. No one needs to go to school for them, we're just born with the full set and know exactly how to use them. Mini-programs hardcoded in our brain that are powerfully motivational but are linked (in the big picture) to the interests and welfare of society or other people, and are meaningless for lone individuals.<br /><br />Guess 2<br /><i>"Who cares if most people share these values? You can't get objective moral rules from that."</i><br /><br />Maybe not perfectly objective but since everyone has the same class of moral intuitions and we all know what anger, disgust, shame, embarrassment, guilt, compassion, gratitude, praise, etc., feel like and what situations trigger them, we have considerable common ground. Where we differ may be on the strength of moral intuitions and Haidt's moral foundations theory expounds on that.DougJChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15361876063686431335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-12197359158123678792015-05-01T06:53:28.064-07:002015-05-01T06:53:28.064-07:00First, no one has a moral obligation to care about...<i>First, no one has a moral obligation to care about the appearance of rationality, I just assume most people want to be seen as rational. But if I was having an argument involving moral obligation in its terms, I would make it solely about shared values. Moral obligation exists as deep-seated intrinsic values we all possess for doing good to others, for not wanting to hurt others, for abhorring wrong-doing, for being seen as someone who does good, and for not being seen as someone who does evil. Without those values, morality can not exist. Certainly those values can defer to self-preservation, and can submit to other categories of moral desires to correct, punish or eliminate bad behavior which can also be terribly misguided in the light of rationality. But shared value means we can talk meaningfully about obligations.</i><br /><br />Who care if most people share these values? It has no moral force.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-72787649064763094372015-04-30T12:47:51.157-07:002015-04-30T12:47:51.157-07:00llion,
[I wrote] "We are hardwired to take m...llion,<br /><br /><i>[I wrote] "We are hardwired to take morally shaming seriously enough to, at the very least, get angry when we think it unfair."</i><br /><br />In context this refers to the extensive built-in moral emotions and reactions we have as part of social behavior. When you attack me in this post, implying that I'm slow or stupid for not "getting it", that's a form of moral shaming (most likely you are generally shaming me for, in your view, the immoral belief of being an atheist instead of a believer), and it has the desired effect in me to a first approximation; it causes an instinctive, unconscious reaction where I assess my behavior and beliefs for wrong-doing and errors. But in this case, I find nothing unreasonable or immoral in my behavior so another instinctive, unconscious moral reaction occurs in which I feel irritation and a desire to lash out at you in the same personal way and affect similar moral shaming on you by saying, for example, that you're a defective and immoral person for your misguided personal attacks and you should change to become a better person. Purely hypothetically of course.<br /><br /><i>"On what *grounds* will you object such that Malcolm has a moral obligation to give a damned about your objection?"</i><br /><br />First, no one has a moral obligation to care about the appearance of rationality, I just assume most people want to be seen as rational. But if I was having an argument involving moral obligation in its terms, I would make it solely about shared values. Moral obligation exists as deep-seated intrinsic values we all possess for doing good to others, for not wanting to hurt others, for abhorring wrong-doing, for being seen as someone who does good, and for not being seen as someone who does evil. Without those values, morality can not exist. Certainly those values can defer to self-preservation, and can submit to other categories of moral desires to correct, punish or eliminate bad behavior which can also be terribly misguided in the light of rationality. But shared value means we can talk meaningfully about obligations.DougJChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15361876063686431335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-3286775631939503822015-04-30T11:17:15.160-07:002015-04-30T11:17:15.160-07:00Declining to get it: "I also left out moral s...<b>Declining to get it:</b> "<i>I also left out moral shaming. I may also morally shame you. We are hardwired to take morally shaming seriously enough to, at the very least, get angry when we think it unfair.</i>"<br /><br />'Unfair'? What in the Hell does that mean?<br /><br /><b>Declining to get it ... including what he himself is saying:</b> "<i>If you are saying we have no good reason to call low violence or crime "better" or "worse" just because it happens to be in line with how many in western society feel, I will of course object.</i>"<br /><br />On what *grounds* will you object such that Malcolm has a <i>moral obligation</i> to give a damned about your objection?Ilíonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15339406092961816142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-27566256624373674742015-04-29T12:44:34.627-07:002015-04-29T12:44:34.627-07:00malcolmthecynic,
"It is very reasonable and ...malcolmthecynic,<br /><br /><i>"It is very reasonable and consistent for me to decide that I don't care what you do or anyone else does or thinks."</i><br /><br />That's not quite the same. You at least desire for your own behavior to be reasonable in your own eyes. If I claim that your behavior is unreasonable, you probably will at least evaluate the argument to see if it makes sense.<br /><br />I also left out moral shaming. I may also morally shame you. We are hardwired to take morally shaming seriously enough to, at the very least, get angry when we think it unfair.<br /><br /><i>"You say "Well, you'd be a sociopath then". You're right, but you also have no way to condemn the sociopath as immoral."</i><br /><br />I believe that is true. But this should not be problem under naturalistic morality because we likewise don't condemn man-eating lions either. We lock them up, shoot them, etc. This turns out to be the same thing we usually end up doing with pyschopaths and sociopaths after other forms of moral rehabilitation inevitably fail. Human beings must have moral intuitions are they can not function as moral agents.<br /><br /><i>"I'm making a broad claim here. You keep talking about how appealing to empathy as the basis for morality is making society a better place. But that doesn't work, since we have no good reason to call such a place "better" or "worse" just because it happens to be in line with how (many, in western society) feel."</i><br /><br />I'm making the fairly uncontroversial claim that society is becoming a better place if there are lower rates of violence and crime. Maybe it's due in part to a focus on empathy as a basis for morality.<br /><br />If you are saying we have no good reason to call low violence or crime "better" or "worse" just because it happens to be in line with how many in western society feel, I will of course object.DougJChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15361876063686431335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-80238710390435576642015-04-28T20:35:51.847-07:002015-04-28T20:35:51.847-07:00I'm making a broad claim here. You keep talkin...I'm making a broad claim here. You keep talking about how appealing to empathy as the basis for morality is making society a better place. But that doesn't work, since we have no good reason to call such a place "better" or "worse" just because it happens to be in line with how (many, in western society) feel.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-77039800363711349042015-04-28T20:30:02.969-07:002015-04-28T20:30:02.969-07:00Caring/listening assumes that you value and desire...<i>Caring/listening assumes that you value and desire your behavior to be reasonable and consistent. I think all people desire to be reasonable.</i><br /><br />It is very reasonable and consistent for me to decide that I don't care what you do or anyone else does or thinks.<br /><br />You say "Well, you'd be a sociopath then". You're right, but you also have no way to condemn the sociopath as immoral.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-43067524274632650822015-04-28T16:45:29.358-07:002015-04-28T16:45:29.358-07:00llion,
There are two senses of morality that you ...llion,<br /><br />There are two senses of morality that you have to be careful not to equivocate on. In one sense, our moral intuitions prompt praise or condemnation; this is the sense in which atheists condemn mass-murderers and it is the most important sense since it's from the heart and derives directly from our value for good behavior and abhorrence for bad behavior. I don't disagree that it is, at core, "I/we don't want you to do it, therefore you must not do it." That's what a deep-rooted visceral response feels like.<br /><br />The second sense of morality is how to discover objective rules that mesh with the moral intuitions and values of the human race. This is more complicated under naturalism because it seems to require that everyone's moral intuitions can be brought into harmony and that moral intuitions never conflict with each other. We can see this discovery on-going in American culture as slavery is abolished, women allowed to vote, and gay marriage legalized. But I disagree that this is "might makes right". A democracy is never fairly characterized as "might makes right", so neither is this process. It is perhaps somewhat a tyranny of the majority, but giving voice and fair hearing to minority views is also part of US democracy and can also be part of an atheist process of discovering objective morality over time.DougJChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15361876063686431335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-80993335933600519302015-04-28T16:07:09.442-07:002015-04-28T16:07:09.442-07:00malcomthecynic,
"Why should I care or listen...malcomthecynic,<br /><br /><em>"Why should I care or listen to you? Why is being empathetic better in any meaningful sense anyway?"</em><br /><br />Caring/listening assumes that you value and desire your behavior to be reasonable and consistent. I think all people desire to be reasonable.<br /><br />For second question, it isn't that being empathetic is better, it is that empathy is valued. As I said, if I run into someone who doesn't value empathy, moral argument of this nature is impossible. With sociopaths/psychopaths, we seem to be only able to resort to threats of punishment.<br /><br />steve,<br /><br />"I didn't claim that crime and violence is increasing. I didn't take a position on that."<br /><br />Okay, than I revise my suggestion for you to make the claim that crime and violence is not decreasing and see if you get disagreement from other believers.<br /><br />"If crime has been dropping like a rock, when are public schools increasingly built and staffed like prisons?"<br /><br />Most likely it has more to do with fear than reality. <a href="http://fcd-us.org/sites/default/files/Child%20Well-Being%20Index%202013%20Final.pdf" rel="nofollow">Here's</a> the 2013 National Child and Youth Well-Being index and you can see the violent crime victimization rate has been dropping since 1994. It was 121.3/1000 in the 12-19 age group in 1994 and today it is 35.9/1000 in 2012. That's quite a drop.DougJChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15361876063686431335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-25453323314637465272015-04-28T08:30:18.378-07:002015-04-28T08:30:18.378-07:00BTW, here's a British example of dubious crime...BTW, here's a British example of dubious crime stats. There's a conflict of interest when those who keep the stats are the same people responsible for law enforcement: <br /><br />http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2013/01/should-we-trust-official-crime-figures.html<br /><br />http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2013/11/the-fiddling-of-crime-figures-vindication-of-my-warnings.htmlstevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-35998507888794527192015-04-28T04:53:37.171-07:002015-04-28T04:53:37.171-07:00... and he'd have to acknowledge to himself (*...... and he'd have to acknowledge to himself (*) that when he condemns this or that as "immoral", all he's really doing is:<br />1) saying "I/we don't want you to do it, therefore you must not do it"<br />2) implicitly saying, "<i>might makes right</i>"<br /><br /><br />(*) the rest of us already know itIlíonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15339406092961816142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-79607014038001833312015-04-28T04:47:39.814-07:002015-04-28T04:47:39.814-07:00MtC: "Why should I care or listen to you? Why...<b>MtC:</b> "<i>Why should I care or listen to you? Why is being empathetic better in any meaningful sense anyway?</i>"<br /><br />Because otherwise he'd have to admit that <i>according to what he himself insists is the truth about the nature of reality</i>, he's no "better" than Lenin, Stalin, Mao or Hitler, and that he has no basis upon which to condemn any of them for their actions.Ilíonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15339406092961816142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-74364815763208719362015-04-27T20:34:03.681-07:002015-04-27T20:34:03.681-07:00DJC said...
"Prokop and Steve, There is no d...DJC said...<br /><br />"Prokop and Steve, There is no doubt that violence and crime is declining on the whole. But rather than go into the full scope of the evidence, I have a suggestion: please continue making the claim that violence and crime are increasing but do it in Christian forums and among Christian company. I believe you'll learn more about it that way."<br /><br />i) If it makes you feel better to misrepresent what I actually said, that evinces the weakness of your own position. I didn't claim that crime and violence is increasing. I didn't take a position on that.<br /><br />ii) As far as the evidence goes, there's different kinds of evidence. There's reading crime stats. But there's also living long enough to observe social changes.<br /><br />I attended suburban junior high and high school in the 70s. We didn't have student ID badges, metal detectors, or security guards. <br /><br />I don't recall news coverage of schoolyard snipers and lockdowns (although I may have missed it).<br /><br />My junior high had an open campus. In principle, anyone could walk right off the street and into the school buildings. Security was nonexistent. <br /><br />It was torn down a few years ago. The new facility is built like a youth detention center, with a single entrance. <br /><br />My old high school now has lots of fenced in areas it never had when I was a student there. And it has uniformed policemen as security guards.<br /><br />If crime has been dropping like a rock, when are public schools increasingly built and staffed like prisons?stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-64866582282626384852015-04-27T19:50:31.895-07:002015-04-27T19:50:31.895-07:00On the other hand, if one is capable of feeling em...<br /><i>On the other hand, if one is capable of feeling empathy, guilt, shame, embarrassment, compassion, etc., than I can show that person that they've harmed another and engage in moral argument to convince them to discover feelings of guilt, shame and empathy.</i><br /><br />Why should I care or listen to you? Why is being empathetic better in any meaningful sense anyway?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-27390527370751712092015-04-27T14:06:54.821-07:002015-04-27T14:06:54.821-07:00steve: "i) To my knowledge, crime stats are k...<b>steve:</b> "<i>i) To my knowledge, crime stats are kept by law enforcement agencies. But the same agencies have a vested interest in touting their success in combating crime. ... </i>"<br /><br />In similar wise, one of the main (ahem) arguments for socialized medicine goes like this: "<i>Infant mortality is so much lower in the European countries with socialized medicine than in the US. This proves that a state-bureaucracy-run medical system is better than the hybrid system we have in the US.</i>"<br /><br />But, European governments don't count "live births" the same way American governments do. In America, is the infact is still alive at birth, even is it dies soon after, that counts as a <i>live</i> birth. In (most or all of the) European countries, an infant has to survive for some minimum span of time before it is counted as a live birth.<br /><br />Oddly, the fact that we actually have better medical care under our semi-socialized system than the fully-socialized Europeans never seems to count as evidence that perhaps we could have even better care if we reduced the socialism in our system.<br /><br /><b>steve:</b> "<i>i) To my knowledge, crime stats are kept by law enforcement agencies. But the same agencies have a vested interest in touting their success in combating crime. ... ii) Crime is a technicality. Depends on what is illegal. ... iii) Ironically, I daresay that crime can be underreported in some of the most crime-ridden neighborhoods. ...</i>"<br /><br />I live in "the bad part of town". The police still answer calls, but it's clear that they don't want to make official reports when they do answer a call. I expect in that regard it's much the same for people in "the good part of town"<br /><br /><br /><b>steve:</b> "<i>ii) Crime is a technicality. Depends on what is illegal.</i>"<br /><br /><b>B.Prokop:</b> "<i>Incredibly, one argument I have seen advanced in favor of abortion is that it lowers crime rates by lowering the number of people in age brackets most inclined to criminal activity.</i>"<br /><br />The <i>extreme violence</i> -- the *murder* -- that is abortion has been declared to be legal. Voila! All that violence, all that murder, goes down the memory-hole; Pinker is right: look at how *moral* we have become!<br /><br />Also, just think how drastically the crime rates could drop if some Mad Scientist were to bio-engineer a plague that wiped out the whole human race!Ilíonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15339406092961816142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-71660441923304224702015-04-27T13:30:58.722-07:002015-04-27T13:30:58.722-07:00malcomthecynic,
"But it also means that if ...malcomthecynic,<br /><br /><em><br />"But it also means that if I decide I don't care if I do something supposedly immoral you have no good reason to tell me that I should care."<br /></em><br /><br />The question is why one doesn't care. If it is because one is not capable of feeling empathy and does not perceive moral emotions, you're correct, I have no good reason to tell the sociopath or psychopath that they should be moral.<br /><br />On the other hand, if one is capable of feeling empathy, guilt, shame, embarrassment, compassion, etc., than I can show that person that they've harmed another and engage in moral argument to convince them to discover feelings of guilt, shame and empathy. This of course relies on addressing the reasons one harmed another and seeing if they can be persuaded, in hindsight, to see it as immoral behavior. That requires a rational argument based on mostly shared moral intuitions. (However, in some cases, it may not be possible for resolution: gay marriage and extreme conservative Christian views comes to mind. In this case, we can expect society to move forward without regard for the moral intuition of a minority.)<br /><br />B. Prokop and Steve,<br /><br />There is no doubt that violence and crime is declining on the whole. But rather than go into the full scope of the evidence, I have a suggestion: please continue making the claim that violence and crime are increasing but do it in Christian forums and among Christian company. I believe you'll learn more about it that way.DougJChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15361876063686431335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-76164541618485640132015-04-27T13:03:05.460-07:002015-04-27T13:03:05.460-07:00Steve,
Incredibly, one argument I have seen advan...Steve,<br /><br />Incredibly, one argument I have seen advanced in favor of abortion is that <a href="http://scholar.harvard.edu/barro/files/99_0927_crimerate_bw.pdf" rel="nofollow">it lowers crime rates</a> by lowering the number of people in age brackets most inclined to criminal activity.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.fabian.az.pl/images/JezuUfamTobieRama_DSC0018D.jpg" rel="nofollow">Jezu ufam tobie!</a>B. Prokophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10548980245078214688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-11473343556588404612015-04-27T12:18:48.829-07:002015-04-27T12:18:48.829-07:00I'd like to venture a few observations about w...I'd like to venture a few observations about whether crime is declining. I'm not a sociologist or criminologist, so I don't claim to be an expert, but that could be said for other commenters:<br /><br />i) To my knowledge, crime stats are kept by law enforcement agencies. But the same agencies have a vested interest in touting their success in combating crime. It would be gullible to assume a police chief or FBI director will advertise official failures. <br /><br />ii) Crime is a technicality. Depends on what is illegal. If, say, pot is legalized, then you will see crime go down in relation to pot possession or pot sales. That, however, doesn't mean the activity has declined. Indeed, it might spike.<br /><br />iii) Ironically, I daresay that crime can be underreported in some of the most crime-ridden neighborhoods. If police avoid certain neighborhoods because it's too dangerous, those crimes won't be reported. If police let crime slide in some neighborhoods because they wish to avoid the bad publicity of a police shooting, riots, national TV coverage, &c., those crimes won't be reported.<br /><br />iv) Likewise, if people in crime-ridden neighborhoods stop calling the police, either due to slow response time or fear of reprisal for being "snitches," those crimes won't be reported.<br /><br />v) When prosecutors offer defendants a chance to plead to a lesser offense, the crime stats will go down for more serious crimes, even though, in reality, those actual crimes have not declined.<br /><br />vi) I think it's possible that certain violent crimes were more prevalent when babyboomers came of age. When you had a larger percentage of young men, crime spiked. It naturally went down when the percentage of young men declined. <br /><br />That, however, doesn't mean crime is lower within that demographic. Rather, the overall demographic profile may have changed. <br /><br />vii) The more offenders you incarcerate, that may lower crime. But that doesn't reduce the number of criminals. It merely reduces the number of criminals on the streets. What you've done is to quarantine criminals. <br /><br />vii) Finally, how crime is reported isn't straightforward. For instance::<br /><br />http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_24971071/denvers-top-law-enforcement-officers-disagree-is-crimestevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-887921128025964002015-04-27T10:20:43.235-07:002015-04-27T10:20:43.235-07:00Yeah, but sometimes salt can be the "Salt of ...Yeah, but sometimes salt can be the "Salt of the Earth".<br /><br />"You are <a href="https://sounddoctrineministries.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/salt-light2.jpg" rel="nofollow">the salt of the earth</a>; but if salt has lost its taste, how shall its saltness be restored? It is no longer good for anything except to be thrown out and trodden under foot by men."B. Prokophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10548980245078214688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-6666927116511523882015-04-27T09:50:19.686-07:002015-04-27T09:50:19.686-07:00Bob,
The article you think is so good was in the ...Bob,<br /><br />The article you think is so good was in the Guardian and because of their bias anything they print should be taken with a whole shaker of salt.jdhueyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14548783175350394626noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-17718635931925608122015-04-27T04:23:11.842-07:002015-04-27T04:23:11.842-07:00Steve,
Thanks for those links. The first one you ...Steve,<br /><br />Thanks for those links. The first one you provided did a better job of skewering Pinker's dubious thinking than I could ever have.<br /><br />Now my work here is done!<br /><br /><a href="http://www.fabian.az.pl/images/JezuUfamTobieRama_DSC0018D.jpg" rel="nofollow">Jezu ufam tobie!</a>B. Prokophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10548980245078214688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-3224136047832308022015-04-26T20:38:12.441-07:002015-04-26T20:38:12.441-07:00http://bedejournal.blogspot.co.uk/2011/11/steven-p...http://bedejournal.blogspot.co.uk/2011/11/steven-pinkers-medieval-murder-rates.html<br /><br />http://bedejournal.blogspot.co.uk/2011/11/steven-pinker-and-an-lushan-revolt.htmlstevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-89186504466262377582015-04-26T20:34:15.644-07:002015-04-26T20:34:15.644-07:00http://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/mar/13/john-...http://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/mar/13/john-gray-steven-pinker-wrong-violence-war-decliningstevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10584495.post-36582352917166125082015-04-26T20:23:46.725-07:002015-04-26T20:23:46.725-07:00Empathizing with people does matter because empath...<i>Empathizing with people does matter because empathy is an emotionally expressed value which can not be denied any more than pain or pleasure can be denied. When someone steps on your foot, it is quite beside the point to tell yourself pain does not matter because one day we'll all be dead.</i><br /><br />But it also means that if I decide I don't care if I do something supposedly immoral you have no good reason to tell me that I should care.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com